Do you agree that Christians should obey all 613 commandments?

[SummaScriptura]

<snip>But he received Deuteronomy in writing and not a vision of the real<snip>

Where can I read this?

 

[listed]

Can you quote where Jesus said he was changing the law? Perhaps he did change the sacrificial temple portion and the priesthood (Leviticus) , but the national law of mainly Deuteronomy, no. But he didn't even say that that I can recall...

For Moses received the vision of a the temple concerning the tabernacle, etc yada yada, where he saw the real, so changing to to the real sacrifice and temple, o.k, change acceptable.

But he received Deuteronomy in writing and not a vision of the real, for how could the laws of a nation written by God be changed to Roman (Greek whatev). (democracy etc) or other?

Don't make me break out the verses where God says the throne will last forever.

Have you been hoodwinked or what?

Why would Jesus need to say He was changing the law? I read the prophets and the Gospels. One promises the change and the other testifies to that change.

It certianly is news to me that Moses received Deuteronomy in writing. Have you read all of Deuteronomy?

 

[tzadik]

Have you been hoodwinked or what?

Why would Jesus need to say He was changing the law? I read the prophets and the Gospels. One promises the change and the other testifies to that change.

It certianly is news to me that Moses received Deuteronomy in writing. Have you read all of Deuteronomy?

Messiah said:

"But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail."

and

"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

Question: When will Heaven and Earth Pass away?

Answer: Revelation 21:1
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea."

Anything that goes against this EXPLICITLY CLEAR WORD of God is Not the Truth.

The End.

 

[listed]

Messiah said:

"But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail."

and

"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

Question: When will Heaven and Earth Pass away?

Answer: Revelation 21:1
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea."

Anything that goes against this EXPLICITLY CLEAR WORD of God is Not the Truth.

The End.

Why do you choose to ignore LK 24:44 and Heb 7:12?

 

[tzadik]

Why do you choose to ignore LK 24:44 and Heb 7:12?

I don't.
I read, believe and accept them as truth.
But only when correctly studied, read, and interpreted in the light of the rest of Scripture.

I've already discussed Luke 24:44 with you. Messiah's second return alone is enough proof that He has not accomplished everything related to Himself. (Yes He did accomplish everything concerning His First Coming!)
Read Acts 3:18-21

"But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time."

The undeniable truth of Matthew 5:18 and Luke 16:17 is that HEAVEN AND EARTH as we know it will PASS AWAY before even the smallest stroke of the Law passes away. Case Closed.

If our interpretation of ANY other passage does not line up with this...continue studying it until you find the Truth.

 

[listed]

I don't.
I read, believe and accept them as truth.
But only when correctly studied, read, and interpreted in the light of the rest of Scripture.

I've already discussed Luke 24:44 with you. Messiah's second return alone is enough proof that He has not accomplished everything related to Himself. (Yes He did accomplish everything concerning His First Coming!)
Read Acts 3:18-21

"But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time."

The undeniable truth of Matthew 5:18 and Luke 16:17 is that HEAVEN AND EARTH as we know it will PASS AWAY before even the smallest stroke of the Law passes away. Case Closed.

If our interpretation of ANY other passage does not line up with this...continue studying it until you find the Truth.

Will you kindly quote LK 24:44 for me? Thanks in advance.

 

[tzadik]

Will you kindly quote LK 24:44 for me? Thanks in advance.

Here you go.
“Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."

These are the things that I spoke to you, telling you that everything that was written about Me in the Law, Prophets and Psalms must be fulfilled.
Absolute Truth from Messiah there.
Now a question to you.
Do you know what the word “all things which are written about me in the Bible” means?
Does it mean “all things that are written ONLY about my first coming?
Does it mean “all things that are written ONLY regarding my death and resurrection?
Or does it mean “ALL THINGS that are written about Me”??!?

Is His second coming prophesied in the Law, Prophets and Psalms?
Is His eternal reign over the world prophesied in the Law, Prophets and Psalms?
Is His ruling with a rod of iron, prophesied in the Law, Prophets and Psalms?
Is His revelation in the clouds prophesied in the Law, Prophets and Psalms?
Is His final battle in the battle of the ages prophesied in the Law, Prophets and Psalms?
Just 5 questions. All of them have DEFINITELY NOT been fulfilled yet!

What is your point?

 

[FredVB]

Here you go.
“Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."

These are the things that I spoke to you, telling you that everything that was written about Me in the Law, Prophets and Psalms must be fulfilled.
Absolute Truth from Messiah there.
Now a question to you.
Do you know what the word “all things which are written about me in the Bible” means?
Does it mean “all things that are written ONLY about my first coming?
Does it mean “all things that are written ONLY regarding my death and resurrection?
Or does it mean “ALL THINGS that are written about Me”??!?

Is His second coming prophesied in the Law, Prophets and Psalms?
Is His eternal reign over the world prophesied in the Law, Prophets and Psalms?
Is His ruling with a rod of iron, prophesied in the Law, Prophets and Psalms?
Is His revelation in the clouds prophesied in the Law, Prophets and Psalms?
Is His final battle in the battle of the ages prophesied in the Law, Prophets and Psalms?
Just 5 questions. All of them have DEFINITELY NOT been fulfilled yet!

What is your point?

This is s good argument. When Christ said that all that was written about him should be fulfilled, that did not mean any more than that, as the Law and the Prophets being done away with, when Christ had said heaven and earth would pass first. And Yahweh revealed that with the new covemant, his law would be written on the heart, that would not end it. I do not know what is supposed to count as the 613 laws. But believers do not need to enforce civil law, Christ's work is that of the priestly and sacrificial law, laws of feast days and diet along with circumcision are still for Jews even when becoming Christian believers, and morality from it is still generally applicable to all, even though in Christ believers are themselves not subject to being under judgment.

By the way, it makes no real difference to say the Father spoke something or the Son did. They are In full unity as Yahweh God, Christ never contradicts the Father, and they agree in all.

 

[Source Scripture]

This is s good argument. When Christ said that all that was written about him should be fulfilled, that did not mean any more than that, as the Law and the Prophets being done away with, when Christ had said heaven and earth would pass first. And Yahweh revealed that with the new covemant, his law would be written on the heart, that would not end it. I do not know what is supposed to count as the 613 laws. But believers do not need to enforce civil law, Christ's work is that of the priestly and sacrificial law, laws of feast days and diet along with circumcision are still for Jews even when becoming Christian believers, and morality from it is still generally applicable to all, even though in Christ believers are themselves not subject to being under judgment.

By the way, it makes no real difference to say the Father spoke something or the Son did. They are In full unity as Yahweh God, Christ never contradicts the Father, and they agree in all.

Excuse me. You just went way to broad by including the prophets. However surely you must admit, the Mosaic law was fullfilled, and done away with? You mention morality, yet no one was ever moral under law, not in it's truest sense, or Christ died for no reason, Galatians 2:21. Surely you agree with the sciptures? I hope! Source.

 

[Lulav]

you are a child of the most High, are you not? and yes, i agree completely with what josephearl posted. Jesus' work is finished. he accomplished what He came to do. You asked josephearl if he follows what he posted.....do you mean believe what he posted? it wasn't clear to me.

No I meant did he follow the basic commands given in Acts 15. These are a part of Torah so of course I keep them.

Originally Posted by brinny
613 Laws of the Old Testament

obeying these 613 commandments will not save anyone.
​

Originally Posted by Lulav

Then you don't listen to anything Jesus said?
​

will they, Lulav?

Let's ask the man himself.

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

There were no other commandments he could have been referring to at that time but the very ones found in the Torah.

Even after his death and resurrection he did not cancel them but said

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

There is even the same kind of warning given here in Revelation as was given in the Torah. To not add or take away.

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life

 

[Frogster]

No I meant did he follow the basic commands given in Acts 15. These are a part of Torah so of course I keep them.

Let's ask the man himself.

There were no other commandments he could have been referring to at that time but the very ones found in the Torah.

Even after his death and resurrection he did not cancel them but said



There is even the same kind of warning given here in Revelation as was given in the Torah. To not add or take away.

no one can keep the Torah, there is no temple, and we have not come to a mountain of gloom. We are in the new cov, not the old. The old cov was abolished, please read Hebrews 10:9, thanks, your buddy frog.

Ps, even the jewish christians in Antioch, were not living torah.

 

[Frogster]

No I meant did he follow the basic commands given in Acts 15. These are a part of Torah so of course I keep them.

Let's ask the man himself.

There were no other commandments he could have been referring to at that time but the very ones found in the Torah.

Even after his death and resurrection he did not cancel them but said



There is even the same kind of warning given here in Revelation as was given in the Torah. To not add or take away.

ps, we don't want to grieve the Spirit of grace, by covenantal regression, please read hebrews 10:29, the Spirit waned against that in Heb 3;7, 10;15, and 12:25, thanks again, your pal frog.

 

[listed]

Messiah said:

"But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail."

and

"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

Question: When will Heaven and Earth Pass away?

Answer: Revelation 21:1
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea."

Anything that goes against this EXPLICITLY CLEAR WORD of God is Not the Truth.

The End.

I guess it has passed away after reading Hebrews 7:12. So we must be imaginary folks on an imaginary planet called earth. I guess that is how it works.

 

[listed]

I don't.
I read, believe and accept them as truth.
But only when correctly studied, read, and interpreted in the light of the rest of Scripture.

I've already discussed Luke 24:44 with you. Messiah's second return alone is enough proof that He has not accomplished everything related to Himself. (Yes He did accomplish everything concerning His First Coming!)
Read Acts 3:18-21

"But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time."

The undeniable truth of Matthew 5:18 and Luke 16:17 is that HEAVEN AND EARTH as we know it will PASS AWAY before even the smallest stroke of the Law passes away. Case Closed.

If our interpretation of ANY other passage does not line up with this...continue studying it until you find the Truth.

Even Peter ( a Jewish believer) said it. Thanks Now the law and the prophets can rest. Glory!!!!!

 

[listed]

ps, we don't want to grieve the Spirit of grace, by covenantal regression, please read hebrews 10:29, the Spirit waned against that in Heb 3;7, 10;15, and 12:25, thanks again, your pal frog.

 

[listed]

I think I can empathasize with why there is so much confusion on this. The Bible is a complex collection of books, and quite large. It can take years, even decades for people to develop a well-integrated picture of the whole thing.

For the record, I think God is gracious to all his creatures and is not gooing to knock someone off the map because they overlooked some verse in the Book of Ezra.

That being said, here is the synthesis that works for me...

1. All of the Bible is God-breathed. The traditions of the elders of Israel, outside of the Bible are not. Jesus disobeyed the traditions of the elders of Israel, not the Scriptures, which He upheld.

2. All of the Bible, including the N.T. is to be considered "torah" or "intruction", not just Moses.

3. Certain laws of the Bible change over time. Adam: "eat fruits and veggies!" Noah: "you can eat all animals,now!" Moses: "you can only eat select animals now". Peter: "arise and kill and eat all animals now".

4. Jesus is the "prophet like Moses" prophesied to come in Deuteronomy 18, so Jesus' words of instruction supercede Moses' words of instruction (torah).

5. Saul was convicted for not staying current with God's instruction, therefore "kicking against the goads", or resisting change and moving forward.

6. All that the New Testament teaches, the words of the Apostles, are the intructions of Christ to and thru His Church, so the New Testament supercedes the older Testament.

 

[razeontherock]

So a year after this thread started, somebody give me the short version: did anybody answer "yes" to the thread title question?

 

[listed]

So a year after this thread started, somebody give me the short version: did anybody answer "yes" to the thread title question?

like so many threads there simply isn't a real interest in getting an answer but promoting an agenda. I certianly don'ts see a discussion by the title. I see yes or no answers. They however anren't acceptable here for some reason.

I would say simply no.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by razeontherock So a year after this thread started, somebody give me the short version: did anybody answer "yes" to the thread title question?

like so many threads there simply isn't a real interest in getting an answer but promoting an agenda. I certianly don'ts see a discussion by the title. I see yes or no answers. They however anren't acceptable here for some reason.

I would say simply no and .... for emphasis bercause the simple truth isn't accepted.

I ain't about to look back over 800 posts to find out

 

[tzadik]

1. All of the Bible is God-breathed. The traditions of the elders of Israel, outside of the Bible are not. Jesus disobeyed the traditions of the elders of Israel, not the Scriptures, which He upheld.

Agreed.

2. All of the Bible, including the N.T. is to be considered "torah" or "intruction", not just Moses.

Agreed. Torah = Instruction and not Law.

3. Certain laws of the Bible change over time. Adam: "eat fruits and veggies!" Noah: "you can eat all animals,now!" Moses: "you can only eat select animals now". Peter: "arise and kill and eat all animals now".

Except, Acts 10 and 11 deal strictly with association with Gentile believers, specifically the Centurion and his men. But hey, if you want to insert &#8216;God, in one vision DID away with His Own Word&#8217; in there&#8230;

4. Jesus is the "prophet like Moses" prophesied to come in Deuteronomy 18, so Jesus' words of instruction supercede Moses' words of instruction (torah).

I find it interesting that in #2 you call all of God&#8217;s Word Instruction, yet when it suits you call the Law of God Torah. Is Messiah God? Would Messiah the Son of God teach something that goes against what Father God taught? We need to be careful in our categorizing God&#8217;s Word into &#8220;people&#8217;s word&#8221; groups, because it&#8217;s easier for us to discount, belittle and erase God&#8217;s Holy Words &#8220;if it&#8217;s no longer God&#8217;s Holy Word.&#8221;
Messiah&#8217;s Words cannot supersede God&#8217;s Words

5. Saul was convicted for not staying current with God's instruction, therefore "kicking against the goads", or resisting change and moving forward.

&#8230;

6. All that the New Testament teaches, the words of the Apostles, are the intructions of Christ to and thru His Church, so the New Testament supercedes the older Testament.

That is if you believe that
A. God&#8217;s Word can be divided. (Not Scriptural)
B. God&#8217;s Words can be pined against each other.
C. A building can stand without its foundation
D. God&#8217;s Word can have disagreements

If you are truly looking for absolute truth you would see that EVERYTHING that any of the Apostles wrote was based on what was written, done or said before them. It&#8217;s preposterous to suggest the throwing away of the foundation, because we now have the house. Everything MUST agree with the foundation of Truth, or it IS not Truth.
&#8220;NT&#8221; supersedes the &#8220;OT&#8221; is one of the most anti-Scriptural statements ever made.