Do you agree that Christians should obey all 613 commandments?

[yedida]

Why is it necessary to show Jesus did so, when His Father made the change? And I don't even need Paul to prove the point.

Just simple common sense makes it necessary. Everyone agrees that Jesus lived out Torah, taught Torah; so, yes, it is not unreasonable to believe there must be a place where He states in no uncertain terms, something to the effect of, "..this which I'm teaching you now is going to end in less than 3 years, but listen up anyway, cos you still got about 3 years you're gonna have to bear up under the awful burden ."

 

[yedida]

So is the law changed as stated or merely a part of the law? Remember James says the law is a single undivisible unit.

Jeremaih doesn't say the 10 Cs would be written on our heart anywhere.

Paul doesn't say that a Christian partakes in the commonwealth of Israel. He does say that Christian are fellowcitizens with the saints - 2 entirely different things.

Paul did indeed state that we were once aliens to the commonwealth of Israel (Eph. 2:12). If one was once in the past an alien to something, that must mean that they are now in the present no longer alien to it.
Please explain the differences between the two descriptions, I don't see any difference.

 

[Harry3142]

First, we would have to memorize all of the 613 laws that applied, or might apply in the future, to our societal position. Then we would have to remember all these laws without fail 100% of the time.

Ignorance was not an excuse for breaking one of the laws or commandments. Leviticus chapters 4, 5, & 6 deal specifically with the sacrifices which those who unknowingly broke a law were to make once they found out that they had violated it. Until then their sin was counted against them, even though they had not even realized that they had committed a sin.

There is also a problem with the belief that we can keep The Ten Commandments while rejecting the other laws and commandments and still claim to be keeping the Mosaic Law. In Mark 12:28-31, Jesus himself was asked which commandment was the most important. Jesus' reply did not even include any of The Ten Commandments. Instead, he told them that there were two other commandments which were to be recognized as most important. 'You will love the Lord your God' (Deuteronomy 6:4) and 'You will love your neighbor as yourself' (Leviticus 19:18b).

So what does this mean? It means that even Jesus Christ saw the 613 laws as a set. His answer makes it clear that there are, in all probability, other laws and commandments somewhere in that set of 613 that he also considers as even more important than The Ten Commandments. So to say that we will follow The Ten Commandments while rejecting the other laws and commandments found in Torah obviously does not conform to Jesus' own perspective concerning the laws of Torah.

Also, his words concerning the practical aid we are to show to those in need mirror another part of the set of 613 laws, namely, remembering the poor. In Matthew 25:31-46, he orders that we feed the hungry, clothe the naked, comfort the sick, and visit those in prison. We are to be the means of alleviating their suffering, just as the Hebrews of the OT who were wealthier were to see themselves as the means of alleviating the suffering of others in Israel.

To jump between the Old Testament Laws and the New Testament Laws as if we were at a salad bar profits us in no way. The 613 laws of Torah are a set, and are to be respected as one of the earliest civilized foundations of a society. But their purpose was only to turn what was little more than a ragtag mob into a cohesive unit, able to live safely among one another and defend themselves against their enemies.

We Christians have a different set of laws and commandments. But these laws and commandments are to be seen as the outgrowth of our salvation, rather than a mean of strengthening a certain nation. We have Jesus' teachings in the gospels as to what we are to do, and refrain from doing. We have the epistles, which teach us what our mindset is to be (a good example is Galatians 5:16-26). And we are to understand that as a measure of our gratitude to God for what he has already given us, namely, eternal life, it is only fair that we endeavor to have our words and actions show this gratitude through our willingness to do as Christ has instructed.

 

[yedida]

First, we would have to memorize all of the 613 laws that applied, or might apply in the future, to our societal position. Then we would have to remember all these laws without fail 100% of the time.

Ignorance was not an excuse for breaking one of the laws or commandments. Leviticus chapters 4, 5, & 6 deal specifically with the sacrifices which those who unknowingly broke a law were to make once they found out that they had violated it. Until then their sin was counted against them, even though they had not even realized that they had committed a sin.

There is also a problem with the belief that we can keep The Ten Commandments while rejecting the other laws and commandments and still claim to be keeping the Mosaic Law. In Mark 12:28-31, Jesus himself was asked which commandment was the most important. Jesus' reply did not even include any of The Ten Commandments. Instead, he told them that there were two other commandments which were to be recognized as most important. 'You will love the Lord your God' (Deuteronomy 6:4) and 'You will love your neighbor as yourself' (Leviticus 19:18b).

So what does this mean? It means that even Jesus Christ saw the 613 laws as a set. His answer makes it clear that there are, in all probability, other laws and commandments somewhere in that set of 613 that he also considers as even more important than The Ten Commandments. So to say that we will follow The Ten Commandments while rejecting the other laws and commandments found in Torah obviously does not conform to Jesus' own perspective concerning the laws of Torah.

Also, his words concerning the practical aid we are to show to those in need mirror another part of the set of 613 laws, namely, remembering the poor. In Matthew 25:31-46, he orders that we feed the hungry, clothe the naked, comfort the sick, and visit those in prison. We are to be the means of alleviating their suffering, just as the Hebrews of the OT who were wealthier were to see themselves as the means of alleviating the suffering of others in Israel.

To jump between the Old Testament Laws and the New Testament Laws as if we were at a salad bar profits us in no way. The 613 laws of Torah are a set, and are to be respected as one of the earliest civilized foundations of a society. But their purpose was only to turn what was little more than a ragtag mob into a cohesive unit, able to live safely among one another and defend themselves against their enemies.

We Christians have a different set of laws and commandments. But these laws and commandments are to be seen as the outgrowth of our salvation, rather than a mean of strengthening a certain nation. We have Jesus' teachings in the gospels as to what we are to do, and refrain from doing. We have the epistles, which teach us what our mindset is to be (a good example is Galatians 5:16-26). And we are to understand that as a measure of our gratitude to God for what he has already given us, namely, eternal life, it is only fair that we endeavor to have our words and actions show this gratitude through our willingness to do as Christ has instructed.

Good post. The only thing I'd like to add is that everything you mentioned as being a commandment in the NT is also within the Torah.
The one thing that was new was Yeshua added a living memorial to something that had become a tradition at the Seder table - He was become the Cup of Salvation.
As you rightly stated the command to love your neighbor as yourself was already a part of the 613 found in Lev. 19:18. Why He called it 'new' I don't know, except maybe it was so unobserved that it appeared to not be a part of the 613.....
I truly think the problem is that most people don't have a clue what the 613 actually are. In truth, the number really isn't that high, when you consider that almost each one is stated as a negative and also as a positive at least once, sometimes twice. Most Christians automatically observe the Law by following the Spirit. It's just a very good thing to know what's contained in the Law as that gives us a gauge whereby to test anything we may be receiving. If it's of God it will not violate Torah.

 

[Strong in Him]

Oh come on. I've read through the entire Bible multiple times. He's God. The words "God can't" do not go together.

Sorry, just lurking in this thread and noticed this post.

I once heard a very good sermon on all the things that God can't do. E.g:
He can't lie.
He can't stop loving us.
He can't disown himself (2 Tim 2:13)

I believe also that he can't change - character. I.e he can't suddenly NOT be love, holy etc
He can't change the way of salvation.

Maybe that's OT but I just wanted to share it.

As to the OP - no.

 

[Frogster]

You didn't prove anything of the sort.
I stated what the change was.
And why is it you have yet to show me where Jesus unmistakenly, unambiguously, in no uncertain terms said that He was going to do away with the Law? I'm getting the impression that you cannot. This is my 3rd day asking for this simple request. No one has stepped forward.

Sure I did, The law, the cov, and the priesthood, were all a part of the old cov, change the law, end the cov. Done.

Abolishment? Matt 5? Because everyone knows, that the law will always stand for the sinners, like how Paul uses it. I thought you said it was a tutor? Until what?

BUT>>Where do do people get released from Law? Now, if you would like to get into the meat of the issue, then great.

Where, and for whom, was the law abolished?


14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Are those who don't know Christ, released from the law, and it's curse?

Are the unsaved ransomed, and in the "US"?

13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—


Lets get into the heart of the chronology, that the Holy Spirit shows us, in Eph 2, and Gal 3.

 

[Frogster]

Paul did indeed state that we were once aliens to the commonwealth of Israel (Eph. 2:12). If one was once in the past an alien to something, that must mean that they are now in the present no longer alien to it.
Please explain the differences between the two descriptions, I don't see any difference.

What does commonwealth mean?

 

[yedida]

What does commonwealth mean?

If you want to reply, then please reply to the request. Don't just ask another question.

 

[SummaScriptura]

Below is a screen-capture of what it should look like when you hover your mouse over a Bible verse hyper-link on my webpage you should see something like this, the verse pops-up:

Someone said they cannot see it but get an error message. You should not have to click each verse, just hover over it...

 

[yedida]

Sure I did, The law, the cov, and the priesthood, were all a part of the old cov, change the law, end the cov. Done.

Abolishment? Matt 5? Because everyone knows, that the law will always stand for the sinners, like how Paul uses it. I thought you said it was a tutor? Until what?

BUT>>Where do do people get released from Law? Now, if you would like to get into the meat of the issue, then great.

Where, and for whom, was the law abolished?


14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Are those who don't know Christ, released from the law, and it's curse?

Are the unsaved ransomed, and in the "US"?

13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—


Lets get into the heart of the chronology, that the Holy Spirit shows us, in Eph 2, and Gal 3.

No, you didn't. I requested a statement where Jesus says in no uncertain terms, in unambiguous phrases that He will/would abolish the Law.

Deu 6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.
Deu 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
The law was not given to an unredeemed people. The Lord wasn't talking to the nations in Deut, He was talking to Israel.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by yedida Paul did indeed state that we were once aliens to the commonwealth of Israel (Eph. 2:12).

What does commonwealth mean?

Good question........

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G4174 matches the Greek πολιτεία (politeia), which occurs 2 times in 2 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

Young) Acts 22:28 and the chief captain answered, `I, with a great sum, did obtain this citizenship/politeian <4174>;'
but Paul said, `But I have been even born [so].'

Young) Ephesians 2:12 that ye were at that time apart from Christ, having been alienated from the commonwealth/politeiaV <4174> of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope, and without God, in the world;

4174. politeia pol-ee-ti'-ah from 4177 ("polity"); citizenship; concretely, a community:--commonwealth, freedom.
4177. polites pol-ee'-tace from 4172; a townsman:--citizen.
4172. polis pol'-is probably from the same as 4171, or perhaps from 4183; a town (properly, with walls, of greater or less size):--city.

 

[yedida]

Good question........

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G4174 matches the Greek &#960;&#959;&#955;&#953;&#964;&#949;&#8055;&#945; (politeia), which occurs 2 times in 2 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

Young) Acts 22:28 and the chief captain answered, `I, with a great sum, did obtain this citizenship/politeian <4174>;'
but Paul said, `But I have been even born [so].'

Young) Ephesians 2:12 that ye were at that time apart from Christ, having been alienated from the commonwealth/politeiaV <4174> of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope, and without God, in the world;

4174. politeia pol-ee-ti'-ah from 4177 ("polity"); citizenship; concretely, a community:--commonwealth, freedom.
4177. polites pol-ee'-tace from 4172; a townsman:--citizen.
4172. polis pol'-is probably from the same as 4171, or perhaps from 4183; a town (properly, with walls, of greater or less size):--city.

Thank you, LLoJ.
I apologize to you Frogster. I thought you had stated that commonwealth and fellowcitizens were two entirely different things, and that's why I didn't answer your question. That was my mistake, it was your friend that said it. Again, sorry.

 

[yedida]

Below is a screen-capture of what it should look like when you hover your mouse over a Bible verse hyper-link on my webpage you should see something like this, the verse pops-up:

Someone said they cannot see it but get an error message. You should not have to click each verse, just hover over it...

It worked for me. Well done.

 

[Brak]

I think what Jesus said in Matthew 19 should put this whole thing to rest for good:

Matthew 19
16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, &#8220;Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?&#8221;

17 &#8220;Why do you ask me about what is good?&#8221; Jesus replied. &#8220;There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.&#8221;
18 &#8220;Which ones?&#8221; he inquired.
Jesus replied, &#8220;&#8216;You shall not murder,
you shall not commit adultery,
you shall not steal,
you shall not give false testimony,
19 honor your father and mother,&#8217;
and &#8216;love your neighbor as yourself.&#8217;&#8221;
20 &#8220;All these I have kept,&#8221; the young man said. &#8220;What do I still lack?&#8221; 21 Jesus answered, &#8220;If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.&#8221;


There you go. Those are the commandments Jesus said we need to keep.

 

[Frogster]

Good question........

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G4174 matches the Greek &#960;&#959;&#955;&#953;&#964;&#949;&#8055;&#945; (politeia), which occurs 2 times in 2 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

Young) Acts 22:28 and the chief captain answered, `I, with a great sum, did obtain this citizenship/politeian <4174>;'
but Paul said, `But I have been even born [so].'

Young) Ephesians 2:12 that ye were at that time apart from Christ, having been alienated from the commonwealth/politeiaV <4174> of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope, and without God, in the world;

4174. politeia pol-ee-ti'-ah from 4177 ("polity"); citizenship; concretely, a community:--commonwealth, freedom.
4177. polites pol-ee'-tace from 4172; a townsman:--citizen.
4172. polis pol'-is probably from the same as 4171, or perhaps from 4183; a town (properly, with walls, of greater or less size):--city.

yea, that is why we are SUPPOSED to be children of the promise, where all natural barriers are gone..But..whatcha gonna do?


31 So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

 

[Frogster]

Thank you, LLoJ.
I apologize to you Frogster. I thought you had stated that commonwealth and fellowcitizens were two entirely different things, and that's why I didn't answer your question. That was my mistake, it was your friend that said it. Again, sorry.

No problem sis..

You are my friend too.

 

[yedida]

I think what Jesus said in Matthew 19 should put this whole thing to rest for good:

Matthew 19
16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18 “Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder,
you shall not commit adultery,
you shall not steal,
you shall not give false testimony,
19 honor your father and mother,’
and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”
20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”


There you go. Those are the commandments Jesus said we need to keep.

That statement does not equate to an abolishment of Torah. Would you truly expect Him to stand/sit there and call off all the commands in Torah? Those commandments belong within the Torah as the foundational commands. If you got those down, the rest come naturally.

 

[yedida]

No problem sis..

You are my friend too.

Guess it's a good thing we're not two mountain rams - we been bucking horns pretty bad lately , but that's what family does sometimes.
Kind of you to say so, bro.

 

[SummaScriptura]

I agree we do not have to keep the 613 Jewish laws but we do have to keep the 10 commandments

Chapter and verse please...

 

[IreneAdler]

probably stated, but all 613 don't apply to one person (pretty much ever)....