Do you agree that christians should keep the 10 Commandments?

sheina · Apr 19, 2011

Elder 111 said:
Yes there is more to christain living than the 10 commandments.
When you are all finish the ten commandments still stands.

When you are all finished with what?

The rule of the Christian life is not the 10 commandments, but the Lord Jesus Christ. We are not told to "put on the 10 commandments"...we are told to put on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh.

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

from scratch · Apr 19, 2011

Elder 111 said:
Never said that.

Did you say this in 762 - Your arguments do not negate the ten commandments.

And this in 776 - If that is good for you as an excuse to negate God's law fine.

And this in 775 - Yes there is more to christain living than the 10 commandments. When you are all finish the ten commandments still stands.

Which implies the same as the 2 in which the word negate appears.

from scratch · Apr 19, 2011

Elder 111 said:
It's the record Jesus gave. Why don't you address that?

Something is missing in your quote of LK 18 and that would be the first 2 verses of the account. Is this by design, or just sloppy work? The way you present it makes it look like Jesus is speaking to everyone on the planet. Verse 23 makes it very plain that the keeping of the commandments won't be of value in securing eternal life.

Isn't this the same incident found in Mat 19:16-22? The same results are recorded there. The you Jesus refers to in both is limited to the rich young ruler.

So I think my statement still stands. Would you now please answer the question? I c&p it here for convience - Is that the record found in the Torah/Pentateuch? I don't think so. Exodus 16-20 and Deuteronomy 4-5. Is Moses telling the truth or a reliable source?

from scratch · Apr 19, 2011

Elder 111 said:
As long as you can live without it that fine. System run without automatically today.
The point is God made the rule. Is He first or not. If it had to come to it, is electricity more important to than God? That is the real question.

Nope, they're attended 24?7 for a reason. And that doesn't get by ones doing business on account on the sabbath without regard to aome one being present at point of delivery. Isn't technology wonderful?

Elder 111 · Apr 20, 2011

tall73 said:
So let's get specific. Do you keep the Day of Atonement, etc.?

Absolutely not. Jesus is the atonement. It is very obvious for us who want to see, that Jesus is the sacrifice. There is no need to bring a lamb, Did not John say Behold the lam of God?
You can go ahead and tie that to the 10 commandments to validate it's removal but at the end of the day you will have to declare that murder is OK for the Christian, That We can have idols and another god. If not the argument fails.
Can not have both it is or it is not.

Elder 111 · Apr 20, 2011

sheina said:
When you are all finished with what?

The rule of the Christian life is not the 10 commandments, but the Lord Jesus Christ. We are not told to "put on the 10 commandments"...we are told to put on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh.

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

What are you putting on when you put on Christ. His righteousness. Is not the 10 commandments of Righteousness? Same Romans, Same Paul. Paul never disregarded or removed the 10 commandments we did. Rom 7

9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Elder 111 · Apr 20, 2011

from scratch said:
Did you say this in 762 - Your arguments do not negate the ten commandments.

And this in 776 - If that is good for you as an excuse to negate God's law fine.

And this in 775 - Yes there is more to christain living than the 10 commandments. When you are all finish the ten commandments still stands.

Which implies the same as the 2 in which the word negate appears.

I was referring to 762, the point I was making is that He was going on but nothing he had said was against the ten commandments. I sensed that He was not for It as I proposed but at the same time He did not state as yet that he was against it, and to be honest, what he was saying could have been seen as supporting it.
That is what was meant. I wanted him to get to the point. Declare his hand.

Elder 111 · Apr 20, 2011

from scratch said:
Something is missing in your quote of LK 18 and that would be the first 2 verses of the account. Is this by design, or just sloppy work? The way you present it makes it look like Jesus is speaking to everyone on the planet. Verse 23 makes it very plain that the keeping of the commandments won't be of value in securing eternal life.

Isn't this the same incident found in Mat 19:16-22? The same results are recorded there. The you Jesus refers to in both is limited to the rich young ruler.

So I think my statement still stands. Would you now please answer the question? I c&p it here for convience - Is that the record found in the Torah/Pentateuch? I don't think so. Exodus 16-20 and Deuteronomy 4-5. Is Moses telling the truth or a reliable source?

No you missed it even in verse 23. He loved his money more than Jesus. Jesus said come follow me, essentially he chose money above Jesus. Another god, first commandment.

tall73 · Apr 20, 2011

Elder 111 said:
Absolutely not. Jesus is the atonement. It is very obvious for us who want to see, that Jesus is the sacrifice. There is no need to bring a lamb, Did not John say Behold the lam of God?
You can go ahead and tie that to the 10 commandments to validate it's removal but at the end of the day you will have to declare that murder is OK for the Christian, That We can have idols and another god. If not the argument fails.
Can not have both it is or it is not.

A. I am not the one tying anything.

Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

The context shows this included the rest of the law, not just the ten.

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

The context shows this included the rest of the law, not just the ten.

So when you say you do not observe the Day of Atonement you note that you DO see some commands that are not binding on you.

B. Your strawman argument about murder, etc. is just that.

The gentiles were not required to be circumcised or be under the law given to Israel. But that does not free them from moral requirements. The moral requirements spelled out in the law, both ten commandments, and the rest of the law, still apply. Gentiles are given moral imperatives throughout the NT.

C. The sabbath has much more in common with the Day of Atonement and Passover than it does with "thou shalt not kill"

Exo 31:13 "You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, 'Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.

The sabbath was a sign within the covenant document that was for Israel.

It was a memorial like the passover. It pointed both to creation and to redemption from Egypt and redemption generally. It was a sabbath like the Day of Atonement. It had sacrifices on it as did the other appointed times.

And it is included in Col. 2:16

Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

tall73 · Apr 20, 2011

Elder 111 said:
I was referring to 762, the point I was making is that He was going on but nothing he had said was against the ten commandments. I sensed that He was not for It as I proposed but at the same time He did not state as yet that he was against it, and to be honest, what he was saying could have been seen as supporting it.
That is what was meant. I wanted him to get to the point. Declare his hand.

Agreed, and now that you have stated your position in breaking up the law, and keep only parts of it, which James and Jesus did not do, I have declared my hand.

Rdr Iakovos · Apr 20, 2011

Elder 111 said:
Absolutely not. Jesus is the atonement.

This isthe same argument given re the Sabbath,that is, that Jesus Himself is our rest.

Why do you believe what you do about Yom Kippur, but not Shabbat?

It is very obvious for us who want to see, that Jesus is the sacrifice. There is no need to bring a lamb, Did not John say Behold the lam of God?
You can go ahead and tie that to the 10 commandments to validate it's removal but at the end of the day you will have to declare that murder is OK for the Christian, That We can have idols and another god. If not the argument fails.
Can not have both it is or it is not.

No, we cannot murder, or even hate, for the Lord has given two Great Commandments, and murder is not part of loving my neighbor. Likewise theft. Again,coveting. Stealing. Committing adultery.

Loving God as Jesus instructs means following the commandments- absolutely, and to the letter- of what He writes inwardly.
"ALL THINGS are permissible- not all things profitable." Do you hear the discernment that must be undertaken by the mature son who is no longer under the tutelage of the Law?

Would you have the mature sons to move back home, and observe 8pm bedtimes?

This is what the Ten Commandments are.

When I have to work early, I send myself to bed, cuz I'm a grown-up.

Likewise, I don't need the 10 to tell me not to commit adultery.
Do you follow what I am saying?

You telling us to observe Saturday islike having one of my friends lecture me on eating my vegetables. Not cool.

from scratch · Apr 20, 2011

Elder 111 said:
What are you putting on when you put on Christ. His righteousness. Is not the 10 commandments of Righteousness? Same Romans, Same Paul. Paul never disregarded or removed the 10 commandments we did. Rom 7

9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

What I'm wondering if putting on the Lord Jesus Christ is putting on the 10 Cs, why Paul said to throw them out Gal 4:30. Using your statement above would that not be throwing Jesus out?

We've read many times the above quoted Scripture passage. Why don't you include v 6 - But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Is it because of proof texting?

from scratch · Apr 20, 2011

Elder 111 said:
I was referring to 762, the point I was making is that He was going on but nothing he had said was against the ten commandments. I sensed that He was not for It as I proposed but at the same time He did not state as yet that he was against it, and to be honest, what he was saying could have been seen as supporting it.
That is what was meant. I wanted him to get to the point. Declare his hand.

Don't those statements state or imply that he was trying to do away with the 10 Cs in your opinion? I think so. Aren't you defending that the 10 Cs are mandatory to be a Christian? I think so.

He did declare his hand. He used to be an SDA pastor. He was schooled in theology at an SDA school. Ask him.

from scratch · Apr 20, 2011

Elder 111 said:
No you missed it even in verse 23. He loved his money more than Jesus. Jesus said come follow me, essentially he chose money above Jesus. Another god, first commandment.

If you say so. His testimony is that he observed the law (10 Cs) and Jesus accused him of nothing.

Jesus did admit in John 8 that the woman had sinned by stating go and sin no more. There is no such statement about the young man above.

tall73 · Apr 20, 2011

Here is the burnt offering of the Sabbath:

Num 28:9 "On the Sabbath day, two male lambs a year old without blemish, and two tenths of an ephah of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with oil, and its drink offering:
Num 28:10 this is the burnt offering of every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering and its drink offering.

What is the burnt offering for "thou shalt not steal"?

Does that sound strange? It should. One is a memorial time with offerings presented on it, and the other is a moral principle.

tall73 · Apr 20, 2011

Rdr Iakovos said:
Why do you believe what you do about Yom Kippur, but not Shabbat?

Yes, I at least find the Messianic position to be more internally consistent.

Whatever you do with the yearly appointed times and the new moon you have to do with the Sabbath.

Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

tall73 · Apr 20, 2011

The seventh-day Sabbath was a sabbath:

Exo 20:9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.

So was the Day of Atonement:

Lev 23:32 It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict yourselves. On the ninth day of the month beginning at evening, from evening to evening shall you keep your Sabbath."

tall73 · Apr 20, 2011

Failure to follow the prescriptions for the Day of Atonement led to being cut off from the people:

Lev 23:28 And you shall not do any work on that very day, for it is a Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God.
Lev 23:29 For whoever is not afflicted on that very day shall be cut off from his people.
Lev 23:30 And whoever does any work on that very day, that person I will destroy from among his people.

Failure to follow the prescriptions of the Passover led to being cut off from the people:

Num 9:13 But if anyone who is clean and is not on a journey fails to keep the Passover, that person shall be cut off from his people because he did not bring the LORD's offering at its appointed time; that man shall bear his sin.

Failure to follow the prescriptions of the Sabbath led to being cut off from the people:

Exo 31:14 You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Elder 111 · Apr 20, 2011

tall73 said:
A. I am not the one tying anything.

B

C. The sabbath has much more in common with the Day of Atonement and Passover than it does with "thou shalt not kill"

Exo 31:13 "You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, 'Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.

The sabbath was a sign within the covenant document that was for Israel.

So why God included it with thou shall not kill? Why we know these things and not God?

Zaac · Apr 20, 2011

Elder 111 said:
It is made clear that we as Christians are under grace and are save by grace by faith.
Does that mean that we do not keep the 10 commandments?
A Jehovah's witness made it a point of telling me that the commandments are abolished. My next question was, can I have sex with you?
Answer, No!
Why Not?
We have to keep the spirit of the law.
What! The law died and the spirit lives?
Is that what we believe?
Does that make sense?
If we acknowledge that we can not lie or steal or commit adultery, do we not acknowledge that the law is still for us?

I've always thought it to be an odd question as though Christians are looking for a way to do the things that God told His chosen people to not do.

None of the 10 Commandments are cultural. And everything that God expects us to do from the OT is reinforced in the NT.

36 Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?
37 Jesus replied: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

Don't know if it has been said yet and I ain't reading through this hideously LOOOOOOOOOOONG thread but a reading of Scripture reveals that the first four commandments given to the children of Israel are contained in the statement: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." It continues that the last six commandments are enclosed in the statement: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Do you agree that christians should keep the 10 Commandments?

10 commandments for christians or not?

No 10 commandments for Christians

Chriatians should keep the 10 commandments

10 commandments except Sabbath

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