do we really have free will?

[Epiphoskei]

A syllogism is a series of two statements and a conclusion drawn from them. If the conclusion doesn't follow from the statements, it's called a non sequitur, from the Latin for "it doesn't follow."

And my point about "free will" is that the term isn't a topic of rational thought. Everyone assents to the term, but everyone means different things by it based on their underlying belief about how the will works.

 

[Harry3142]

Quite frankly, I'm glad someone else is confused besides me. I grew up in The United Presbyterian Church, and many of the messages on this thread are exactly the same as the Calvinist argument for predestination. In that theory John Calvin stated that we were all foreordained as to whether we would be counted among the saved or among the lost. Our actions would confirm our particular situation, with those foreordained for heaven behaving in a certain manner and those foreordained for hell acting in a totally different manner. But in neither case could either the saved or the lost 'cross the line' and enter the other's camp. Their fate had been sealed from the time of their births.

For obvious reasons, this theory was modified circa 1900. Instead of the fates of the lost being sealed, and therefore no evangelization being of any value to them, it was now declared possible for them to 'cross over' into the camp of the saved. They now were seen as being able to choose whether they would accept Christ and be saved, or reject him and continue in their lost state. The theory of predestination had been modified so that instead of its stating that everyone's fate had been sealed from the instant of their births, God instead knew who would reject him and who would accept him through his ability to read what was on their hearts.

However, this is God's territory, not ours. It is he who can read the hearts of men, not us. Our responsibility is limited to living our own lives so as to be a credit to Christianity and to presenting the word of salvation to others so that they can know and understand it. Those who accept the salvation as offered by God, answer to God. Those who reject the salvation as offered by God, answer to God. In neither case do they answer to us.

 

[Harry3142]

SUM-

Here is what I myself believe. We have God desiring that we do what is good (feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc.). We have Satan desiring that we do what is evil (misery loves company). But neither of them can accomplish what they desire without our express cooperation. It is we who are in charge, and that is as it should be.

This thread is an example of what can happen when we depart from Scripture. Scripture itself is quite clear as to who can be saved, and it is specific in saying that anyone can attain salvation:

Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) "or 'Who will descend into the deep?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile - the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:5-13,NIV)

That's it; this passage describes how anyone can obtain salvation. There are no 'clubs' that one has to be born into in order to attain salvation. There are no 'caste systems' which delegate who is saved and who is lost. Our salvation depends solely on whether we choose to accept it.

You have probably already heard some say that you have to do this, that, or the other following your acceptance of salvation, or it won't count. But that is not how Scripture describes it. When you were born, did you consciously force your heart to start beating? Did you force your lungs to fill with air? Did you force your brain to start assimilating knowledge, or your body to start lengthening and gaining weight? The answer to all these questions is, "No, it was simply the natural state of life's progression."

In like manner, but on a spiritual plane, those who accept salvation start to grow and mature. Since each person is unique from every other person, this growth is different with each individual. Some may simply be more neighborly, which is fine. Others, due to their various talents, may go on to become noteworthy, and even famous. This is also fine. But in neither case does the action of the saved 'anchor' the salvation. Instead, their actions are simply the outgrowth of the salvation they have already obtained, in much the same manner as the heartbeat, respiration, brain function, and body growth are all purely natural outgrowth of a viable birth.

 

[Epiphoskei]

Oh I thought a syllogism was a logical argument involving three propositions which includes a formal deductive argument made up of a major premise, a minor premise, and a conclusion. I thought a non sequitur is an unexpected twist in dialogue used for comical purposes in literature or a logical fallacy in formal logic. My simple syllogism is as follows:

P1- Free will is defined as those actions which are done willingly. True
P2- God predetermines every action. True
C- Therefore, either God does not predetermine actions or God does not exist.

The conclusion DOES NOT follow necessarily from the premises. Your Right! Boy that wasn’t thought through was it?

How about this syllogism:
P1- Free will is defined as those actions which are done willingly.
P2- God gives man free will.
P3- God controls all actions.
C1- Either man does not have free will or God does not exist.
C2- Either God does not control all actions or God does not exist.

And everyone may define free will differently but we all know what it means in this context right? There's no need to complicate things by adding fluff and meaningless distractions.

Ah, so you were being disingenuous earlier instead of trying to hold a serious conversation. Forgive me for assuming good faith on your part.

To be correct your syllogism also requires the premise that willing actions cannot be predetermined. And that premise is the actual point of dispute between the determinist and the libertarian, so you can hardly dismiss it as fluff.

 

[Epiphoskei]

Quite frankly, I'm glad someone else is confused besides me. I grew up in The United Presbyterian Church, and many of the messages on this thread are exactly the same as the Calvinist argument for predestination. In that theory John Calvin stated that we were all foreordained as to whether we would be counted among the saved or among the lost. Our actions would confirm our particular situation, with those foreordained for heaven behaving in a certain manner and those foreordained for hell acting in a totally different manner. But in neither case could either the saved or the lost 'cross the line' and enter the other's camp. Their fate had been sealed from the time of their births.

For obvious reasons, this theory was modified circa 1900. Instead of the fates of the lost being sealed, and therefore no evangelization being of any value to them, it was now declared possible for them to 'cross over' into the camp of the saved. They now were seen as being able to choose whether they would accept Christ and be saved, or reject him and continue in their lost state. The theory of predestination had been modified so that instead of its stating that everyone's fate had been sealed from the instant of their births, God instead knew who would reject him and who would accept him through his ability to read what was on their hearts.

However, this is God's territory, not ours. It is he who can read the hearts of men, not us. Our responsibility is limited to living our own lives so as to be a credit to Christianity and to presenting the word of salvation to others so that they can know and understand it. Those who accept the salvation as offered by God, answer to God. Those who reject the salvation as offered by God, answer to God. In neither case do they answer to us.

Does God know or does He not know who will be saved and will not be saved? And if God has such knowledge, are their fates not just as sealed? If a man is foreknown by God to not be saved, can he cross camps, and would that not cause God's foreknowledge to be wrong?

This is where most arguments that go along the lines of "predestination has undesirable consequences therefore I won't believe it" run afoul. Simple foreknowledge itself usually leads to the same consequences.

 

[Saved4ever]

When looking into Free will I find that the best place to look is the word of God itself. In specific Romans Ch 9 and Isaiah ch 40. In both places we see the power of God. For if He is God, who am I to argue with Him?

People always talk about our will being free cause I decide what I am going to do. Well when we look at the state of man we are wicked and will always choice to do what is evil without the intervention of God.

 

[SUM]

Epiphoskei,

I do apologize about being misleading as this was my first time posting on this forum and I was only testing the water. However, I was sincere about not wanting to offend anyone. That is not my purpose. To be honest I never have thought the Free Will argument was much good for either side. There are much better arguments out there now days. Thanks for the discussion though.

Harry3142

I am an atheist and believe that there is no God with the same conviction as say St. Thomas Aquinas believed that there was. However, I use to be a deeply religious man and I Know scripture well. I have become enlightened and now use my “minds eye” or rational thought instead of believing in something that makes no logical sense. Thank you for discussing this topic with me I’m sure we’ll met again in this forum.