Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved ?

[Aaron112]

Thats all fine and dandy.

But if you do not focus on him offering to adopt you as his son, and save you from your sins.

You can try you best to do all Jesus said you should do. You will still be lost in your sin,.

A non believer needs to be born aga8in first. THEN they can focus on what Jesus said to do. otherwise. he is just another religious person.

So? To be born again is always only the Father's Choice. Not flesh, not blood, not the will of man.

 

[Doug Brents]

These extra long-winded posts of wash, rinse, repeat, disagree are becoming a waste of time, so I will mainly focus on the very heart of your error. Scripture is crystal clear about salvation. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, (and physical actions/works? NO. Simply faith) and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. We are saved for good works and not by good works.

And again you have misinterpreted Eph 2:8-9. As you have agreed, Rom 10:8-10 details a physical action that "results in" receiving salvation. Accepting that there is a physical action that results in salvation, we MUST alter your understanding of Eph 2:8-9. There are works that are required to receive salvation, but those acts do not earn salvation, just as the actions of the nation of Israel did not earn the destruction of the walls of Jericho, nor did the actions of Naaman earn the removal of his leprosy, nor did the actions of the widows earn them their blessings. Their actions were required, but they did not earn or merit the blessing they received.

It's your eisegesis that says, "water baptized or condemned" and not Scripture. I will stick with what Scripture says. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. I am sorry that you refuse to believe. I'm very familiar with what God demands. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; 20:31; Acts 10:43-47; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:1 John 5:13 etc..).

Again, your focus on these verses blinds you to the truth. All Scripture MUST be true all at the same time. You want to make these verses true, and ignore the verses that do state that water baptism is required, making them into lies. But they are not lies, and must be taken into account along with these verses.

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (KJV)
Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the certainty/assurance of things hoped for, the proof/conviction of things not seen. (NASB)
Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance (title deed, confirmation) of things hoped for (divinely guaranteed), and the evidence of things not seen [the conviction of their reality—faith comprehends as fact what cannot be experienced by the physical senses]. (AMP)

Faith is not water baptism.
Faith is not multiple acts of obedience which follow having been saved through faith.
Faith is not works.

Correct, faith is not works. But faith without works is not real; it doesn't really exist.

Faith is real the moment we are made alive together with Christ and saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:5-9) The actions/works which follow (Ephesians 2:10) simply demonstrate that faith is alive. (James 2:14-26) Works do not cause faith to be alive. You have it backwards. James is discussing the evidence of faith.

James is discussing faith, period. Faith without works is not real, it is not really faith. James' point is that you cannot show me your faith without works, because without works there really isn't any faith. So he says, "I will show you my faith by my works."

I already thoroughly explained this to you in post #509 but you stubbornly refuse to accept the truth.

No, I stubbornly hold fast to the truth, and refuse to accept your false explanation of "belief-onlyism".

Putting the full weight of your soul in His hands means that we are trusting 100% in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Since you turn to supplements for salvation, you demonstrate that you don't fully trust in Him to save you.

On the contrary, I trust 100% in God. He told us to do certain things in order to receive His blessing. Failure to do what He says, and teaching others to fail to do what He says, demonstrates lack of trust in Him.
Naaman trusted in God and was healed when he did what was commanded.

Absolutely false and another critical error. Don't confuse being baptized with the Holy Spirit/baptized by one Spirit into one body with simply receiving the spiritual gift of tongues. You are forced to believe your false teaching here in order to "get around" Acts 10:43-47.

There is no "getting around" any Scripture. Acts 10:43-47 does not depict the salvation of the Gentiles. Their salvation does not occur until verse 48 where they are baptized in water into Christ. This fulfills Jesus' statement in John 3:5, and Mark 16:16, and His statement through Peter in 1 Pet 3:21.

Matthew 3:11 - I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

And you think that the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire equates to salvation? That is a serious leap that is not supported by Scripture anywhere.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. *Crystal clear.

Sure it is crystal clear as far as it goes. But it does not tell us when the Spirit baptizes us into the one body. But 1 Pet 3:21 does tell us when that happens, as do John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27: in water baptism.

Again, a man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this. Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents. "With this ring, I thee wed," although the ring is not the actual cause of the change in the marital status, just like water baptism is not the actual cause of our salvation status. This is not hard to understand. It's just hard for you to ACCEPT.

It is impossible to accept because it is wrong. But I have tried to show you the truth, and your hard heart and blind eyes refuse to accept the truth. And that is so sad, because you could be a great champion of the truth if you would just accept it. I feel very sorry for you.

Absolutely false. It had everything to do with their salvation. Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins.” 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. (See 1 Corinthians 12. The spiritual gift of tongues is ONLY for the body of Christ) Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” It would take blatant dishonesty to reject this crystal-clear truth.

The dishonesty is your twisting of what is said. As has already been shown to your, the Jews on Pentecost (the beginning - Acts 11:15) received only the miraculous empowerment of the Spirit because they had already received the indwelling of the Spirit back in John 20:22. So when Peter states that the Gentiles received the Spirit "just as we did in the beginning", he is not referring to salvation and the indwelling of the Spirit, but only to the miraculous empowerment of tongues and praise (Acts 2:4, Acts 10:46).

There it is! You reduce "believes" down to intellectual assent in the Gospel! Busted! Intellectual assent in the Gospel merely acknowledges that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened."

And that is exactly what I said in that post. First a person comes to the intellectual agreement that Jesus is God, and that He died for our sins. And yes, that is the same level of knowledge that the demons have. But that is not saving faith. That knowledge does not result in salvation.

Even the demons believe that. The deeper faith that saves also trusts in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) *Your formula for salvation is missing this vital element.

The "deeper faith" that results in salvation requires obedience to what Jesus says leads to receiving salvation. That is what is missing in your "belief-onlyism" nonsense.

Dan, repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism have absolutely no meaning without the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. That is a given. That is foundational, and can never be overstated. But you want to go the opposite direction and say that we don't have to obey Him, we don't really have to make Him our Lord, but we receive His blessing simply when we "believe in our heart" without any of the demonstrative proofs that He demands.

Then you place repentance "after" belief/faith and redefine it as moral self-reformation. You turn confession into a work for salvation as you do with water baptism. What a mess! This remains the very heart of your error. Mere mental assent belief followed by moral self-reformation followed by lip service confession followed by water baptism is not unto salvation.

I agree that mere mental assent belief followed by moral self-reformation followed by lip service confession followed by water baptism is not unto salvation.

But mental assent belief followed by turning to God (repentance) and accepting God's transformative work in our life to stop sinning and begin walking in the Light, followed by the sincere, public, verbal statement of the truth that God is now the Lord of our life, followed by water baptism is unto salvation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So? To be born again is always only the Father's Choice. Not flesh, not blood, not the will of man.

Born again, A great topic. What did Jesus tell nicodemus we had to do.

John 3:
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [b]who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So I believe Jesus is telling him we are born again when in faith we look to the cross

I think Paul also addresses this when he also speaks of being made alive or born again in Eph 2?

Eph 2: 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Did not paul say God raises us up. He made us alive. And it is all based on faith. that we have been ( a completed action) saved by grace. but this grace is applied through faith (trust) of the one who is saved? not of works. lest anyone should boast

 

[Aaron112]

So I believe Jesus is telling him we are born again when in faith we look to the cross

That's error. Very common, but still wrong.
Just a minute and ..... (retrieving) ......
New International Version
children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

New Living Translation
They are reborn—not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God.

English Standard Version
who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Berean Standard Bible
children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.

 

[Doug Brents]

He believes in God

You believe in some ceremony and some sinner immersing you in water.

huge difference their my friend

The ceremony is meaningless without God. Just as marching around Jericho would have been meaningless without God and His command to do so. Just as dipping in Jordan seven times would have been meaningless without God's command for Naaman to do so. It is not the ceremony that removes our sin, but God's power that is received because of our obedience to His command. Naaman would not have been healed if he had not done what was commanded, but he knew that the water of Jordan would not remove his disease. If it would, he could have gone there without going to the God's prophet. If marching around a city for 7 days would knock down city walls, that would be the method used in every case in history. But it didn't even work for Israel for any city other than Jericho.

It is not the ceremony in which I trust, but the God who commanded the ceremony.

 

[Doug Brents]

see. we have this backwards.

Yes, you have it backwards.

Faith is the power.

No, faith is the conduit through which the power of God flows (Eph 2:8-9).

If we have faith, there will be works. we work because we trust God and are assured

if we donot have faith. we either will not work. or the works we do will be self evident to be self focused. which is bloody rags or self righteous works. and not works of faith at all.

People need to focus on faith. not works.

We need to focus on what God has told us to do. It is His blessing, and can only be received how He tells us they are received.
Rom 10:9-10 says that the verbal confession of Jesus as Lord results in our receiving salvation.
Acts 3:19 says that repentance results in our receiving forgiveness and seasons of refreshing from the Lord.
Acts 2:38 says that repentance and baptism result in receiving forgiveness.
1 Pet 3:21 says that we receive salvation from God through water baptism.

If we ignore the clear "if/then" statements of God then we will be ignored at Judgement.

 

[Doug Brents]

yes, Paul in romans 4 makes this clear

Romans 4: 16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be [d]sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”


23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

Nowhere in any of that does it indicate that it is Jesus' faith that saves us. It is our faith (our belief in God demonstrated in our obedient actions to His commands) in God to keep His promises by which we are saved.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That's error. Very common, but still wrong.

So Jesus was wrong?

Just a minute and ..... (retrieving) ......
New International Version
children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

New Living Translation
They are reborn—not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God.

English Standard Version
who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Berean Standard Bible
children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.

and what is the will of God.

John 6: 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

do we see jesus say this elswhere?

John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

John the baptist even understood this basic truth

John 3: 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Its not based on the word we do or do not do. its based on the fact. do we trust God. or do we trust self (unbelief).

I do not will myself to heaven by trusting God. God saves me when i in faith receive his grace gift.

the tax collector did not will himself to heaven.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The ceremony is meaningless without God. Just as marching around Jericho would have been meaningless without God and His command to do so. Just as dipping in Jordan seven times would have been meaningless without God's command for Naaman to do so. It is not the ceremony that removes our sin, but God's power that is received because of our obedience to His command. Naaman would not have been healed if he had not done what was commanded, but he knew that the water of Jordan would not remove his disease. If it would, he could have gone there without going to the God's prophet. If marching around a city for 7 days would knock down city walls, that would be the method used in every case in history. But it didn't even work for Israel for any city other than Jericho.

It is not the ceremony in which I trust, but the God who commanded the ceremony.

Doing a ceremony (work) in order to earn or merit salvation is called self righteousness. or a work of righteousness which can not save.

I was baptized by God. I was baptized by my pastor a year later

God was in both. But only one saved me..

I was born again already when I finally was able to be water baptized.. That ceremony did not add to my salvation. or make me more saved

 

[Aaron112]

and what is the will of God.

No matter what you do, you cannot make yourself nor make anyone else born again.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, you have it backwards.

I do? Putting works before faith is backwards my friend.

No, faith is the conduit through which the power of God flows (Eph 2:8-9).

Faith is the means of salvation.

God is offering you his free gift. paid for by his son..

You can either recieve it in faith, or reject it in unbelief.

We need to focus on what God has told us to do. It is His blessing, and can only be received how He tells us they are received.
Rom 10:9-10 says that the verbal confession of Jesus as Lord results in our receiving salvation.
Acts 3:19 says that repentance results in our receiving forgiveness and seasons of refreshing from the Lord.
Acts 2:38 says that repentance and baptism result in receiving forgiveness.
1 Pet 3:21 says that we receive salvation from God through water baptism.

If we ignore the clear "if/then" statements of God then we will be ignored at Judgement.

1. verbal confession? But hey did the tax collector verbally confess when he cried out for Gods mercy? He went home justified.
2. you will not have faith unless you repent. I am not sure why people think this is hard to understand, we were gods enemy, We rejected God. we did nto believe. Until we repent. we will still be in a state of unbelief. He who does nto believe is condemned already
3. You need to study acts 2 better, it does not say what you thing
4. No, peter never said any such thing. He compared the water of baptism to the waters of the flood. which represented or symbolizes that which saves us now..

why would you want to merit your salvation?? That boggles my mind why you want want to take glory from God?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No matter what you do, you cannot make yourself nor make anyone else born again.

I never said I could. In fact. if you did not cut my post up. you would see I said that..

so why would you accuse me of thinking otherwise

Its not based on the word we do or do not do. its based on the fact. do we trust God. or do we trust self (unbelief).

I do not will myself to heaven by trusting God. God saves me when i in faith receive his grace gift.

the tax collector did not will himself to heaven.

Shame on you for trying to make it appear I believed otherwise.

 

[Doug Brents]

Doing a ceremony (work) in order to earn or merit salvation is called self righteousness. or a work of righteousness which can not save.

No, it is not.
Look back at the Old Testament. Look at all the places where God promises a blessing to someone (individual or group). Is there ever a place where He offers a blessing that He does not command some action in order to receive it? I have not found one yet. Here are just a couple of examples:
Naaman (2 Kings 5) is told to dip in Jordan seven times to be healed of his leprosy.
The widow (2 Kings 4) is told to borrow jars from her neighbors and pour oil into them.
The widow (1 Kings 17) is told to give her last bread cake to the prophet.
The nation of Israel (Joshua 6) is told to march around Jericho.
In each and every case, there is an action that is commanded that will result in a supernatural blessing of God. The actions do not merit the reward, nor do the actions themselves cause the blessing. But without the action, the blessing would not be received.

I was baptized by God. I was baptized by my pastor a year later

You think you were baptized by God, but according to Scripture you were not saved/forgiven of sin/born again until you were baptized in water (John 3:5, Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14).

I do? Putting works before faith is backwards my friend.

Works do not come BEFORE faith, they are a part of faith. If there is no action then there is no faith. You are excluding the actions and calling it faith, but that is an empty profession of nothingness

Faith is the means of salvation.

God is offering you his free gift. paid for by his son..

You can either recieve it in faith, or reject it in unbelief.

Faith is the means of receiving salvation (Eph 2:8-9). And yes, it is either received by an active, obedient faith or it is not received at all. If you do not do what God says results in receiving His blessing, then you don't receive His blessing.

1. verbal confession? But hey did the tax collector verbally confess when he cried out for Gods mercy? He went home justified.

This example comes from before the New Covenant was in effect (before Jesus' death). So yes, he went home justified under the Old Covenant. But under the New Covenant he would not be.

2. you will not have faith unless you repent. I am not sure why people think this is hard to understand, we were gods enemy, We rejected God. we did nto believe. Until we repent. we will still be in a state of unbelief. He who does nto believe is condemned already

We are still His enemy even when we do repent. If you walk into a mud pit and turn around and walk the other way, you have repented (turned around and gone a different direction). But you are still dirty. You are still covered in the mud you got on you when you entered the mud. Just turning around does not result in cleansing of the filth. It is certainly a step in the right direction, because if you continue walking in the filth even if you clean yourself at every step, you just get dirty again when you take the next step.

3. You need to study acts 2 better, it does not say what you thing

Then enlighten me. Tell me what it really says. But make sure what you say matches up with all of Scripture.

4. No, peter never said any such thing. He compared the water of baptism to the waters of the flood. which represented or symbolizes that which saves us now..

Really? Let's look at it more closely:
1 Pet 3:21 - "who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,..."
The flood was the shadow, the symbol, of baptism. And just as the eight in the Ark were saved by their faith to build the Ark which brought them through the water unharmed, we are saved by our faith to pass through the water of baptism, which is where the Holy Spirit removes our sins, gives us a clear conscience, and unites us with the death and resurrection of Jesus (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, 1 Pet 3:21), and we are made children of God (Eph 5:26-27).

why would you want to merit your salvation?? That boggles my mind why you want want to take glory from God?

There is absolutely no way to merit salvation. I am not suggesting that we ever could even come close to meriting the life of our creator. What I am saying, just as Scripture does, is that God has put salvation (His gift) out there on the table for anyone to take, but it can only be taken by those who obey Him in what He has said allows them to take it: repentance (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, Mark 16:16, John 3:5, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14). Anything less than what He has said leads to/results in receiving His blessing does not receive His blessing.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No, it is not.

says who?

When you go to work. do you do it expecting nothing in return. or do you expect a wage?

You merit that wage.

so why would you insist that when you do a work in order to receive salvation. Your expecting a wage (salvation) or you are tryign to merit salvation, and then deny you are doing this

I expected nothing in return when I was baptized. i already received everything I needed to save me, GOD did all the work. while I sat there calling out for his mercy

Look back at the Old Testament. Look at all the places where God promises a blessing to someone (individual or group). Is there ever a place where He offers a blessing that He does not command some action in order to receive it? I have not found one yet. Here are just a couple of examples:
Naaman (2 Kings 5) is told to dip in Jordan seven times to be healed of his leprosy.
The widow (2 Kings 4) is told to borrow jars from her neighbors and pour oil into them.
The widow (1 Kings 17) is told to give her last bread cake to the prophet.
The nation of Israel (Joshua 6) is told to march around Jericho.
In each and every case, there is an action that is commanded that will result in a supernatural blessing of God. The actions do not merit the reward, nor do the actions themselves cause the blessing. But without the action, the blessing would not be received.

So you do believe salvation is a reward not a gift. thank you.

I agree with you. this is what you believe.

My offer of suggested would be to repent.

You think you were baptized by God, but according to Scripture you were not saved/forgiven of sin/born again until you were baptized in water (John 3:5, Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14).

Um no.

John 3: 5 is not water baptims
Acts 2 I was saved because I repented, based on my remission fo sin, i was water baptized
1 Peter 3: 21. Water baptism did not remove my sin, but was another type as the waters of the flood.
Gal 3 - this is holy spirit baptism, no water is involved GOD baptized me into Christ
Eph 5 - it is the word which washed me, not water baptism,
romans 6. Again, this is the baptism of God. God immersed me into his death, and into him
col 2. The circumcision done without the hands of men, so why would this spiritual circumcision being done by the hand of God be through water baptism by the hand of men? (sometimes you just have to think)

Works do not come BEFORE faith, they are a part of faith.

They are a result of faith.

But we are talking about salvation.

If there is no action then there is no faith.

lol. If there is no faith their is no salvation. its not because they did not have works,. its because they did nto have faith.

Jesus is clear he who BELIEVES (has faith ) Is not condemned, he who does not believes (does nto have faith) is condemned already.

no works involved

we are saved by grace through faith. not works.

those who are saved based on the fact that have true saving faith will work.

but their works are a result of their salvation. Not in order to receive salvation.

You are excluding the actions and calling it faith, but that is an empty profession of nothingness

No. I am excluding the fact that no work I could ever do will cover any of my sins, And I am excluding works as a part of grace. because if it is of grace it is not of works. otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Faith is the means of receiving salvation (Eph 2:8-9).

Yes,

And yes, it is either received by an active, obedient faith or it is not received at all.

All acts of living faith are obedient, you act as if someone can have living faith but never do a work. Are you that desperate to earn your salvation that you can not understand this basic fact?

If you do not do what God says results in receiving His blessing, then you don't receive His blessing.

Salvation is a gift. not a blessing

I receive blessings because I am saved, not to get saved

This example comes from before the New Covenant was in effect (before Jesus' death). So yes, he went home justified under the Old Covenant. But under the New Covenant he would not be.

so it is harder under the new covenant to get saved than the old?

lol. My friend, think about what you just said..

We are still His enemy even when we do repent. If you walk into a mud pit and turn around and walk the other way, you have repented (turned around and gone a different direction). But you are still dirty. You are still covered in the mud you got on you when you entered the mud. Just turning around does not result in cleansing of the filth. It is certainly a step in the right direction, because if you continue walking in the filth even if you clean yourself at every step, you just get dirty again when you take the next step.

Then enlighten me. Tell me what it really says. But make sure what you say matches up with all of Scripture.

Really? Let's look at it more closely:
1 Pet 3:21 - "who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,..."
The flood was the shadow, the symbol, of baptism. And just as the eight in the Ark were saved by their faith to build the Ark which brought them through the water unharmed, we are saved by our faith to pass through the water of baptism, which is where the Holy Spirit removes our sins, gives us a clear conscience, and unites us with the death and resurrection of Jesus (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, 1 Pet 3:21), and we are made children of God (Eph 5:26-27).

lol. Yes, It does not remove the filth of the flesh (sin) but is an answer of a good conscious to God.

There is absolutely no way to merit salvation.

Then why are you trying to merit salvation by your works of obedience?

I am not suggesting that we ever could even come close to meriting the life of our creator. What I am saying, just as Scripture does, is that God has put salvation (His gift) out there on the table for anyone to take, but it can only be taken by those who obey Him in what He has said allows them to take it: repentance (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, Mark 16:16, John 3:5, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14). Anything less than what He has said leads to/results in receiving His blessing does not receive His blessing.

Your preaching you must merit salvation. then denying you can merit salvation.

You are very confused because you have misinterpreted alot of scripture.

 

[Doug Brents]

says who?

Says God through His Scripture, as I indicated in the references to historical examples in the OT.

When you go to work. do you do it expecting nothing in return. or do you expect a wage?

You merit that wage.

Certainly you merit a wage that is commemorate with work done. But if you are valuing God's life at the price of getting dipped in water, then you have a very small view of God. God purchased the forgiveness of our soul at the cost of the life of His Son, part of Himself, the Eternal God. You are saying that you think that being dipped in water even comes close to beginning to earn even the least glance from God, let alone His Son's life? No. As Luke 17:7-10 tells us, the servant does what he is commanded, and does not even deserve a "thank you" from his master for doing what he was told to do. But the Master has promised that if we do certain things, He will reward us (not a wage, but a gift) with His forgiveness and adoption as His children (Eph 5:26-7).

I expected nothing in return when I was baptized. i already received everything I needed to save me, GOD did all the work. while I sat there calling out for his mercy

No, He did not do it then. He didn't even hear you crying out for mercy, because He had already told you how to receive His mercy, and you ignored Him. Naaman almost did the same thing. He was told what he needed to do to receive the gift of clean skin (removal of his leprosy), and he almost walked away without doing it.

John 3: 5 is not water baptims

John 3:5 says that both the Spirit and water are required to be born again and enter the Kingdom of God. Where else are the Spirit and water linked in terms of salvation? 1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Matt 28:19, and others.

Acts 2 I was saved because I repented, based on my remission fo sin, i was water baptized

Acts 2:8 says that repentance of sin AND baptism are both IN ORDER TO RECEIVE salvation. It is not "repent in order to receive forgiveness" and then "be baptized because you have been forgiven". There is nothing in the grammar of the original Greek that would indicate such a division in the meaning of "eis" (the Greek word meaning "for"). "Eis" (for) can either mean "in order to" or "because of", but Acts 3:19 makes it clear that the meaning in Acts 2:38 is "in order to".

1 Peter 3: 21. Water baptism did not remove my sin, but was another type as the waters of the flood.

The Holy Spirit removes sins during water baptism, not some ephemeral time before baptism (for it is water baptism that now saves you).

Gal 3 - this is holy spirit baptism, no water is involved GOD baptized me into Christ

There is only one baptism in the NT Church (Eph 4:5-6), and that one baptism MUST include water as is indicated in 1 Pet 3:21, and it must be done by man as is indicated in Matt 28:19.

Eph 5 - it is the word which washed me, not water baptism,

The Word washes through the water.

romans 6. Again, this is the baptism of God. God immersed me into his death, and into him
col 2. The circumcision done without the hands of men, so why would this spiritual circumcision being done by the hand of God be through water baptism by the hand of men? (sometimes you just have to think)

The immersion in water must be done by the hands of men (Matt 28:19, Acts 2:38), but the action of removing sin, uniting us with Christ in His death and resurrection, and the adoption into the family of God is done by the Holy Spirit during water baptism. You don't get the Spirit's action without the actions of faith that God commands.

lol. If there is no faith their is no salvation. its not because they did not have works,. its because they did nto have faith.

If there are not works, then there is no faith. Faith is not a mental only concept. It requires, demands, and is incomplete and useless without, actions/works.

Jesus is clear he who BELIEVES (has faith ) Is not condemned, he who does not believes (does nto have faith) is condemned already.

no works involved

Works are absolutely involved, because faith is incomplete without works. Works are the soul of faith, and without the soul there is no life. Dead faith cannot bring life.

we are saved by grace through faith. not works.

We are saved through faith, which requires the actions that God has commanded as leading to/resulting in our reception of salvation.

those who are saved based on the fact that have true saving faith will work.

but their works are a result of their salvation. Not in order to receive salvation.

Good works, works that are produced as the fruit of the Spirit, are indeed the result of salvation. But repentance, confession of Jesus, and baptism are not good works. They are works of faith that God has said lead to/result in receiving His blessing of forgiveness and salvation.

No. I am excluding the fact that no work I could ever do will cover any of my sins, And I am excluding works as a part of grace. because if it is of grace it is not of works. otherwise grace is no longer grace.

This passage is talking about works as a form of earning, or seeking to merit salvation. But again, repentance, confession of Jesus, and baptism are not done to earn or merit salvation. They are done because God says that doing them results in our reception of His blessing, His gift.

All acts of living faith are obedient, you act as if someone can have living faith but never do a work. Are you that desperate to earn your salvation that you can not understand this basic fact?

No, not all action of faith are equal. There are many actions of faith that God says flow from, and are the result of, our being saved. But there are a few (repentance, confession of Jesus, and baptism) that are said to come before salvation is received.

Salvation is a gift. not a blessing

A gift is a blessing, and a blessing is a gift. Blessing are not wages, and wages are not blessings. If you earn what you receive, then it is not a blessing, but a debt you are owed. A blessing is a gift that is outside of any debt. God does not owe us His love, it is a blessing He gives to us. God does not owe us salvation. He did not have to send His Son to die for us to begin with. He did it because He loves us and wants us with Him. That is a blessing, a gift, not a wage, or a debt.

I receive blessings because I am saved, not to get saved

You have received blessings since before you were conceived. God blessed you with life, He blessed you with a world into which you were born, He blessed you with an atmosphere in which you could survive. You have received many, many blessings.

Salvation is also a blessing, a gift. It was offered to you if you will trust in what God says.
He says repent so that you can receive forgiveness.
He says confess Jesus as Lord so that Jesus will confess you as His servant.
He says be baptized into His name so that He will cut your sins away from you, and resurrect you like Jesus was resurrected, and adopt you as His child.
Then, after you are His child, go and live like He did to show others the tremendous blessing you have received.
But don't ever think you are His child just because you believe in Him, because there will be many at Judgement who "believe" that they are His, and have done many great works in His name, but they never did what He said to do to become His, and He NEVER KNEW THEM.

so it is harder under the new covenant to get saved than the old?

No, it has always been about faith, but the actions of faith that lead to salvation under the NT are not the same as the actions that lead to salvation under the OT. Same faith, different actions.

lol. Yes, It does not remove the filth of the flesh (sin)

Wrong, the dirt (ῥύπου (rhypou)) mentioned in 1 Pet 3:21 is not sin, it is physical dirt.

but is an answer of a good conscious to God.

It is the reception of a clean conscience from God. We are not saved by removing dirt from our flesh, but are given a clean conscience by God becasue of Jesus' death.

Your preaching you must merit salvation. then denying you can merit salvation.

You are very confused because you have misinterpreted alot of scripture.

No, I have NEVER said we must (or even could) merit salvaiton. What we must do is surrender our will to God, and allow Him to direct us. It is in accepting His will that we accept His promise that IF we repent, confess Him as Lord, and are baptized, He will wash us clean and adopt us as His children. Read Matt 10:32. Jesus is very clear that if you confess Him, He will claim you, but if you don't confess Him, He will not claim you. Which comes first? We must confess Him first, and then He will claim us. If we refuse to confess Him, then He will not claim us. Does confessing Him earn His claim of us? NO!!! Not at all!!! But it still must come first, or He will not do His part.

 

[ARBITER01]

Their faith would not have been real, it would not have existed at all, without their actions. Each of the people mentioned did what they did "by" or "in" faith. It was their faith that made their actions meaningful, and it was their actions that made their faith complete. Both are required, or neither has any meaning.

I'm not sure why you keep making your faith works based.

When I was born again, it was faith reaching up to the Lord Jesus from my heart, asking forgiveness and for Him to come into my heart. I had a tangible Holy Spirit immersion that night.

I did nothing because it was faith that brought about the heavenly answer and action.

Like I said, it is always faith first.

 

[Doug Brents]

I'm not sure why you keep making your faith works based.

I don't. God did. He defines faith as the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen (Heb 11:1). He says that faith without works is dead, worthless, ineffectual, and meaningless (James 2:20, 22, 24, 26).

When I was born again, it was faith reaching up to the Lord Jesus from my heart, asking forgiveness and for Him to come into my heart. I had a tangible Holy Spirit immersion that night.

Where in Scripture does it say that we are saved when we "ask Jesus to come into our heart"? I have never found anything in Scripture even remotely resembling that statement. The only place in Scripture where the phrase "faith only" (or anything even remotely like it) is in James 2:24 where it says that we are justified (declared righteous with God) by our actions, and NOT by faith only.

I did nothing because it was faith that brought about the heavenly answer and action.

If you did nothing, then you received nothing. Jesus does not claim before God those who do not publicly and verbally claim Him before men (Matt 10:32, Rom 10:9-10). The Holy Spirit does not cut the sins from anyone who does not pass through the water of baptism (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14). God does not forgive those who do not repent of their sins (Acts 3:19).

You have been deceived by Satan and his minions into believing the popular, humanist, false doctrine of "faith only"/"easy believeism". That false doctrine will leave you with those that Jesus will tell at Judgement, "I never knew you." And no matter what "good works" you do, or what "tangible Holy Spirit immersion" you may think you feel, He will still say that you are a "worker of iniquity" and send you into everlasting torment.

 

[Guojing]

We are justified by our faith IN Christ, not the faith OF Christ.

Read the KJV of those 2 verses to get the OF. (Romans 3:22 KJV, Galatians 2:16 KJV)

Of course, if you don't like the KJV, then it won't matter.

And as Rom 3:22 states, there is no distinction between "the circumcision" (Jews) and "the uncircumcision) (Gentiles), so there is no distinction between the faith required of the two groups. The two groups are now one, and there is no separation, distinction, or division between them. The same faith (requiring works to be real) is required of all mankind.

Then Paul's statement in Romans 3:30 would be redundant, would you agree?

 

[ARBITER01]

Where in Scripture does it say that we are saved when we "ask Jesus to come into our heart"? I have never found anything in Scripture even remotely resembling that statement. The only place in Scripture where the phrase "faith only" (or anything even remotely like it) is in James 2:24 where it says that we are justified (declared righteous with God) by our actions, and NOT by faith only.

Lol,....

Rom 10:9 that if you shall confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and shall believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Whosoever believes on Him shall not be put to shame."

I don't think you understand what salvation is.

The Holy Spirit does not cut the sins from anyone who does not pass through the water of baptism (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14).

There's the real problem.

It's not a faith issue with you, it's a water regeneration issue. You're simply trying to add the aspect of faith onto a personal work that you did to try and validate that action as somehow a saving grace. You're no different from the traditionalists we have on here advocating for water immersion/regeneration all the time.

 

[Danthemailman]

And again you have misinterpreted Eph 2:8-9.

Ephesians 2:8,9 is straightforward. What part of saved by grace through faith, not of yourselves, it is gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast don't you understand? You remain determined to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works and boast.

As you have agreed, Rom 10:8-10 details a physical action that "results in" receiving salvation.

You are hung up on physical actions/works for salvation. Confession is an expression of faith and not a work for salvation. According to your interpretation of Romans 10:8-10, someone who is mute (cannot speak) would remain lost for failing to verbally confess (physical action) with their mouth, yet the word of faith is still in their mouth and heart TOGETHER even if this mute believer is unable to physically speak.

Accepting that there is a physical action that results in salvation, we MUST alter your understanding of Eph 2:8-9.

I don't altar Scripture in order to make Ephesians 2:8,9 fit salvation by faith and works, as you do. You need to altar your understanding of Romans 10:8-10 in order to harmonize it with Ephesians 2:8,9.

There are works that are required to receive salvation, but those acts do not earn salvation,

OXYMORON. Either Christ did it all or else we did some of it. You can't have it both ways. (Romans 10:1-4;1 Corinthians 1:18-21)

just as the actions of the nation of Israel did not earn the destruction of the walls of Jericho, nor did the actions of Naaman earn the removal of his leprosy, nor did the actions of the widows earn them their blessings. Their actions were required, but they did not earn or merit the blessing they received.

There is a difference between receiving a blessing and receiving the free gift of eternal life. There is no Biblical distinction between works that are boastful for salvation and works that are not boastful for salvation. That is a purely man-made imaginary term you're preaching, because you want to boast in your personal definition of non-boastful works.

Again, your focus on these verses blinds you to the truth.

I was once blind (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) but now I see. (Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) When will you believe?

All Scripture MUST be true all at the same time.

All Scripture is true at the same time, and we reach the truth by properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture and not through distorting and patching Scripture together in order to accommodate a biased church doctrine that culminates in salvation by works.

You want to make these verses true, and ignore the verses that do state that water baptism is required, making them into lies. But they are not lies, and must be taken into account along with these verses.

If we are saved by water baptism or any other work, then these verses are a lie. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; 20:31; Acts 10:43-47; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 10:4; 11:6; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Again, you can't have it both ways.

Correct, faith is not works. But faith without works is not real; it doesn't really exist.

Faith in Christ exists the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Ephesians 2:5-9) and good works "follow." (Ephesians 2:10) You need to stop putting the cart before the horse. Works salvation is no salvation at all.

James is discussing faith, period. Faith without works is not real, it is not really faith.

An empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works at all is not really faith but is a bare profession of faith. (James 2:14)

James' point is that you cannot show me your faith without works, because without works there really isn't any faith. So he says, "I will show you my faith by my works."

James said show, not establish. (James 2:18) Big difference!

No, I stubbornly hold fast to the truth, and refuse to accept your false explanation of "belief-onlyism".

Don't confuse your idea of "belief-onlyism" (James 2:24) which is an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works (James 2:14) CONTEXT with belief/faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) This faith saves and results in producing good works. (Ephesians 2:10) You need to remember that James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) This remains your Achilles heel.

On the contrary, I trust 100% in God. He told us to do certain things in order to receive His blessing. Failure to do what He says, and teaching others to fail to do what He says, demonstrates lack of trust in Him.

You trust in your preconceived beliefs (eisegesis) of what God says. You seem to have more trust in your works and in your church for salvation than you do in God.

Naaman trusted in God and was healed when he did what was commanded.

Naaman was not even a believer until after dipping in Jordan. He said "NOW" (after being healed) I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," (2 Kings 5:15) and vowed to worship only Him (vs. 17). If we follow this "example," we will have to baptize unbelievers! Naaman received cleansing from leprosy (not eternal life) after he dipped in the Jordan 7 times, but no sins were literally remitted for Naaman in Jordan. Likewise, water baptism does not literally remit sins.

There is no "getting around" any Scripture. Acts 10:43-47 does not depict the salvation of the Gentiles. Their salvation does not occur until verse 48 where they are baptized in water into Christ. This fulfills Jesus' statement in John 3:5, and Mark 16:16, and His statement through Peter in 1 Pet 3:21.

You just demonstrated your attempts to "get around" Acts 10:43-47 in order to force this passage of Scripture to "conform" to your biased church doctrine. Acts 10:43-47 absolutely does depict the salvation of these Gentiles and their salvation certainly occurred when they believed in Him and received remission of sins, (Acts 10:43) along with receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:45) and spoke in tongues. The evidence from the text is overwhelming that these Gentles believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues (which is a spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism. Certain Jews may have wanted to forbid these Gentiles from being baptized because of their unacceptance of the Gentiles, but Peter clearly states that SURELY NO ONE CAN REFUSE. These Gentiles were clearly SAVED BEFORE WATER BAPTISM in Acts 10:48 and the Holy Spirit was proof of this. (Romans 8:9; 1 John 4:13) Irrefutable.

And you think that the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire equates to salvation? That is a serious leap that is not supported by Scripture anywhere.

So, you reject the baptism with the Holy Spirit? Being baptized by one Spirit into one body (1 Corinthians 12:13) has everything to do with salvation. Your church seems to have some misguided ideas about the baptism with the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 2:11-14)

Sure it is crystal clear as far as it goes. But it does not tell us when the Spirit baptizes us into the one body. But 1 Pet 3:21 does tell us when that happens, as do John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27: in water baptism.

Based on your eisegesis you continue to confuse the picture/symbol/figure found with (water baptism) with the reality. (Spirit baptism) I already thoroughly covered 1 Peter 3:21; John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27 with you in multiples posts and refuted your eisegesis.

It is impossible to accept because it is wrong.

It's right and it's impossible for you to accept because you will have to admit that you are wrong. That can be very devastating to one's pride.

But I have tried to show you the truth, and your hard heart and blind eyes refuse to accept the truth. And that is so sad, because you could be a great champion of the truth if you would just accept it. I feel very sorry for you.

You have not shown me the truth but your eisegesis. It's a shame that human pride will not allow you to admit that you are wrong and to quit trusting in your works for salvation and turn to trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation by faith. There is no need for you to feel sorry for me. After years of deception in a false religion, I was finally delivered from that false religion when I came to place my faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Praise God! Now I finally have assurance of salvation. (1 John 5:13) I hope and pray that you will find deliverance as well.

The dishonesty is your twisting of what is said. As has already been shown to your, the Jews on Pentecost (the beginning - Acts 11:15) received only the miraculous empowerment of the Spirit because they had already received the indwelling of the Spirit back in John 20:22. So when Peter states that the Gentiles received the Spirit "just as we did in the beginning", he is not referring to salvation and the indwelling of the Spirit, but only to the miraculous empowerment of tongues and praise (Acts 2:4, Acts 10:46).

This is pure eisegesis and blatant dishonesty. This is a poor attempt to "get around" the truth found in Acts 10:43-47 which refutes your argument about water baptism.

And that is exactly what I said in that post. First a person comes to the intellectual agreement that Jesus is God, and that He died for our sins. And yes, that is the same level of knowledge that the demons have. But that is not saving faith. That knowledge does not result in salvation.

That knowledge must travel from our head (intellectual agreement) to our heart which goes beyond mere intellectual agreement and actually trusts in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) That is saving faith. (Acts 15:7-9) The demons do not have that and neither does anyone else who trusts in works for salvation instead of in Jesus Christ alone.

The "deeper faith" that results in salvation requires obedience to what Jesus says leads to receiving salvation. That is what is missing in your "belief-onlyism" nonsense.

You still cannot grasp this deeper faith that trusts in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. That is what is missing in your salvation by works nonsense. Saving faith results in obedience/works and does not require multipe acts of obedience/works to be accomplished before it becomes saving faith. The object of our faith in receiving salvation is Jesus Christ and not works. This could be your turning point Doug as it was for me several years ago. You need to repent (change your mind) and place your faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Your hands are full of your works and you need to let go in order to receive Christ through faith.

Dan, repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism have absolutely no meaning without the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. That is a given. That is foundational, and can never be overstated. But you want to go the opposite direction and say that we don't have to obey Him, we don't really have to make Him our Lord, but we receive His blessing simply when we "believe in our heart" without any of the demonstrative proofs that He demands.

By changing our mind and choosing to believe the gospel are we not obeying Him? (Romans 1:16; 10:16) If belief (John 3:18; Acts 10:43; Romans 1;16 etc..) is insufficient for you it's because the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (object of our belief) is insufficient for you, so then you no alternative but to turn to supplements/works for salvation. Either we are trusting 100% in Jesus Christ for salvation or else we are 100% lost. That is the narrow way.

I agree that mere mental assent belief followed by moral self-reformation followed by lip service confession followed by water baptism is not unto salvation.

Amen! But... here it comes.

But mental assent belief followed by turning to God (repentance) and accepting God's transformative work in our life to stop sinning and begin walking in the Light, followed by the sincere, public, verbal statement of the truth that God is now the Lord of our life, followed by water baptism is unto salvation.

You just proved my point. You turn belief into mere mental assent belief then place repentance after belief and redefine it as moral self-reformation. BTW have you completely stopped sinning? Do you live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 24/7 exactly has Jesus lived? Be honest. I suppose you turn walking in the light as a work for salvation as well. In regard to 1 John 1:7 see post #244 from the link below:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/wicked-lose-your-salvation-documentary-on-youtube-promoting-a-works-based-

salvation.8296969/page-13#post-77869286

You turn confession into a public confession/work for salvation. You also turn water baptism into a work for salvation. So, you turn belief into mere mental assent belief and you reverse the Scriptural order of repentance and belief/faith. (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21) What a mess! If our belief in Christ is mere mental assent belief and falls short of saving belief which trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, then our repentance was merely moral self-reformation and our confession was merely lip service and our baptism was just a bath. Thanks for proving my point. Authentic belief (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16 etc..) that goes beyond mere mental assent belief (deeper faith that you still cannot seem to grasp) is unto salvation. Repentance precedes this belief, (Acts 20:21) confession along with this belief are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10) and water baptism "follows" this belief that saves. (Acts 10:43-47)