Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved ?

[Danthemailman]

I'm not sure why you keep making your faith works based.

When I was born again, it was faith reaching up to the Lord Jesus from my heart, asking forgiveness and for Him to come into my heart. I had a tangible Holy Spirit immersion that night.

I did nothing because it was faith that brought about the heavenly answer and action.

Like I said, it is always faith first.

Prior to my conversion several years ago on a late Saturday night, I made faith works based as well. That is the only thing that the natural man can understand. When I was born again, it was my faith reaching to Jesus Christ from the heart, trusting in Him alone for salvation that saved me. I was unable to receive water baptism until the next morning, but I knew without a doubt that I received the Holy Spirit and was saved the night before I was water baptized when I received Jesus Christ through faith. It's always faith first indeed.

 

[Doug Brents]

Read the KJV of those 2 verses to get the OF. (Romans 3:22 KJV, Galatians 2:16 KJV)

Of course, if you don't like the KJV, then it won't matter.

The KJV is a good translation, but it does have some mistakes in it, this being one example.

To interpret it as the faith "of" Christ instead of faith "in" Christ would contradict many other Scriptures. It is our faith "in" Christ that brings us salvation.

Then Paul's statement in Romans 3:30 would be redundant, would you agree?

It is redundant, but Scripture frequently makes redundant statements to emphasize a point. Jesus frequently said the same thing twice in quick succession to make show the importance of what He was saying.

 

[Doug Brents]

Rom 10:9 that if you shall confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and shall believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Whosoever believes on Him shall not be put to shame."

I don't think you understand what salvation is.

This passage says nothing whatsoever about "asking God into your heart". Can you please find me that verse?

There's the real problem.

It's not a faith issue with you, it's a water regeneration issue. You're simply trying to add the aspect of faith onto a personal work that you did to try and validate that action as somehow a saving grace. You're no different from the traditionalists we have on here advocating for water immersion/regeneration all the time.

Those are not my words; they are God's words. And when we get to Judgement, and God tells you that He never knew you, I will feel very sorry for your hardness of heart, but I will not be able to do anything but tell you, "I warned you." Salvation is God's to give how He chose to give it, and it is received only how He says it is received. EVERY passage of Scripture that speaks about salvation must be true at the same time, which means that we must believe, and repent, and confess Jesus, and be baptized in order to receive salvation. Any of those left out leaves Scripture containing a false passage, and there is nothing false in Scripture.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Lol,....

Rom 10:9 that if you shall confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and shall believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Whosoever believes on Him shall not be put to shame."

I don't think you understand what salvation is.




There's the real problem.

It's not a faith issue with you, it's a water regeneration issue. You're simply trying to add the aspect of faith onto a personal work that you did to try and validate that action as somehow a saving grace. You're no different from the traditionalists we have on here advocating for water immersion/regeneration all the time.

Amen.

He sees water where thier is no water. He think God can not immerse us into himself. he needs some pastor to do it for him,

 

[Doug Brents]

Ephesians 2:8,9 is straightforward. What part of saved by grace through faith, not of yourselves, it is gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast don't you understand? You remain determined to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works and boast.

Dan, I could agree with your interpretation of it if it weren't for other passages of Scripture. Rom 10:8-10 is very clear that the physical action of confessing Jesus as Lord with the mouth results in receiving salvation. That fact must influence our interpretation of Eph 2:8-9. We cannot take Eph 2:8-9 as meaning that there is no physical action we must take that leads to receiving salvation. We must understand it as emphasizing the fact that we cannot earn salvation through what we do, but there are still actions we must take, that have no meritorious value, that lead to receiving salvation.

You are hung up on physical actions/works for salvation. Confession is an expression of faith and not a work for salvation. According to your interpretation of Romans 10:8-10, someone who is mute (cannot speak) would remain lost for failing to verbally confess (physical action) with their mouth, yet the word of faith is still in their mouth and heart TOGETHER even if this mute believer is unable to physically speak.

I have many deaf/mute friends, and their "mouth" (their tool of communication) is their hands. But even if God doesn't accept that, and it must be with their mouth, are you saying that God owes them salvation? No. God does not owe them salvation, and if they are automatically condemned because they cannot fulfill His command to verbally confess Him as Lord, God is still righteous. He may have made them just for the purpose of demonstrating His glory as it says in Rom 9:19ff.

I don't altar Scripture in order to make Ephesians 2:8,9 fit salvation by faith and works, as you do. You need to altar your understanding of Romans 10:8-10 in order to harmonize it with Ephesians 2:8,9.

My poor deluded friend, it is you who needs to change your understanding of Eph 2:8-9 so that it agrees with Rom 10:8-10 so that you get proper harmonization.

OXYMORON. Either Christ did it all or else we did some of it. You can't have it both ways. (Romans 10:1-4;1 Corinthians 1:18-21)

Did the nation of Israel in any way contribute to the knocking down of the walls of Jericho by marching around it for a week? No. But God would not have knocked the wall down if they had not marched around it as He told them to do.
God did (and does) it all, in response to our faith expressed through obedience to what He says leads to/results in receiving His gift of salvation.

There is a difference between receiving a blessing and receiving the free gift of eternal life.

Nope, the gift of eternal life is just another one of God's blessings that some will receive and some will not. God does not want anyone to be lost (2 Pet 3:9), but the majority of people will be lost (Matt 7:13-14). This makes it clear that there is a will other than God's that is in play here determining who will be saved and who will be lost. Rev 20:12 makes it clear that at Judgement we will be judged based on what we have done, not just what we believed.

There is no Biblical distinction between works that are boastful for salvation and works that are not boastful for salvation. That is a purely man-made imaginary term you're preaching, because you want to boast in your personal definition of non-boastful works.

No, there is no boasting in receiving the gift of God. Israel didn't boast, "Look at us, we helped God knock down the walls of this city by marching around it." But the walls still might be standing today if they hadn't marched around it as they were told.

If we are saved by water baptism or any other work, then these verses are a lie. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; 20:31; Acts 10:43-47; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 10:4; 11:6; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Again, you can't have it both ways.

No, those verses do not become lies because baptism is required to receive salvation. When we understand that "belief" comes from the Greek "pistis" which means faith, and that faith includes (in fact demands) action or it is not real. Thus, to "believe" means to have a demonstrated obedient faith. With that proper Biblical understanding of "belief" all of the actions that Scripture says lead to/result in receiving salvation are included in all of those verses you list above.

Faith in Christ exists the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Ephesians 2:5-9) and good works "follow." (Ephesians 2:10) You need to stop putting the cart before the horse. Works salvation is no salvation at all.

"Belief only-ism" is no salvation at all. Faith in Christ exists the moment we put action to our intellectual assent to the truth of the Gospel. If there is no action, then there is no faith.

An empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works at all is not really faith but is a bare profession of faith. (James 2:14)

Precisely.

James said show, not establish. (James 2:18) Big difference!

No, there is no difference. You want to have an empty profession of "faith" that does nothing result in salvation, and then after the blessing of salvation is received, then you take action. That is not what Scripture commands.

Don't confuse your idea of "belief-onlyism" (James 2:24) which is an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works (James 2:14) CONTEXT with belief/faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) This faith saves and results in producing good works. (Ephesians 2:10) You need to remember that James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) This remains your Achilles heel.

You change and adapt the meaning of "justify" to fit your interpretation. "Justify" means to account as righteous. We are "justified" when God accounts us as not guilty of the sins we have committed and accounts us as righteous with the righteousness that Jesus had. James says that we are "justified" (accounted as righteous) by our works and not by our faith alone. We are never righteous on our own, but are accounted as righteous by God through of our faith (active and alive) because of Jesus' righteous life, death, and resurrection.

You trust in your preconceived beliefs (eisegesis) of what God says. You seem to have more trust in your works and in your church for salvation than you do in God.

Not at all. I trust in what God says in His Word. If He didn't say that repentance, confession of Jesus, and baptism were essential to receive salvation, I wouldn't either. But He did, so I must.

Naaman was not even a believer until after dipping in Jordan. He said "NOW" (after being healed) I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," (2 Kings 5:15) and vowed to worship only Him (vs. 17). If we follow this "example," we will have to baptize unbelievers!

Sometimes, faith is more hope than trust. Naaman hoped that the command of God would result in his healing more than he trusted in God, but he still did what was commanded, and it resulted in his healing and greater faith and trust in God.

Naaman received cleansing from leprosy (not eternal life) after he dipped in the Jordan 7 times, but no sins were literally remitted for

One supernatural blessing/gift of God is the same an every other supernatural blessing/gift of God. As Jesus said, which is easier, to forgive sin or to heal? Both are equally impossible for man. But both are equally as possible for God.

Naaman in Jordan. Likewise, water baptism does not literally remit sins.

Just as the water of Jordan was required but immaterial in the actual cleansing of Naaman's skin, so the water of baptism is required but immaterial in our salvation. The water does not do the cleansing (the Holy Spirit does that), but if we do not pass through the water the Holy Spirit does not remove our sins, just as Naaman would not have been healed if he had not dipped.

You just demonstrated your attempts to "get around" Acts 10:43-47 in order to force this passage of Scripture to "conform" to your biased church doctrine. Acts 10:43-47 absolutely does depict the salvation of these Gentiles and their salvation certainly occurred when they believed in Him and received remission of sins, (Acts 10:43)

Acts 10:43 does not say that the Gentiles were forgiven when the Spirit fell on them. It says that all those who exhibit faith in God receive forgiveness of sins. The Gentiles had not yet exhibited faith in God when the Spirit fell on them. They had barely heard the Gospel. And while they were already God fearing, and were probably already saved under the OT, they were now under the NT and required baptism as the NT Scriptures say.

along with receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:45) and spoke in tongues.

Again, the reception of the gift of the Holy Spirit (tongues and praise) does not indicate salvation. They still required baptism in water, as Peter prescribed for them, in order to receive forgiveness of their sins.

The evidence from the text is overwhelming that these Gentles believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues (which is a spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism. Certain Jews may have wanted to forbid these Gentiles from being baptized because of their unacceptance of the Gentiles, but Peter clearly states that SURELY NO ONE CAN REFUSE. These Gentiles were clearly SAVED BEFORE WATER BAPTISM in Acts 10:48 and the Holy Spirit was proof of this. (Romans 8:9; 1 John 4:13) Irrefutable.

No, they were not yet saved under the NT. They were not yet in Christ, clothed with Christ, adopted into the family of God, forgiven, etc. because they had not yet been born again of water and the Spirit. Jesus said both were required, and they had received neither. The miraculous empowerment of the Spirit is not the same as the indwelling of the Spirit.

So, you reject the baptism with the Holy Spirit? Being baptized by one Spirit into one body (1 Corinthians 12:13) has everything to do with salvation. Your church seems to have some misguided ideas about the baptism with the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 2:11-14)

The baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs during water baptism. The event on Pentecost and with Cornelius is not the "baptism of the Holy Spirit". That event has occurred only those two times. If that is the requirement for salvation, then only those 120 in the upper room on Pentecost and those in Cornelius' house were saved. But we know that over 5000 were saved in one day after the Holy Spirit fell on the 120, and He did not fall on those 5000 in tongues of fire. I do not reject the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but I do put it in its proper place, and understand what it is and when it occurs.

Based on your eisegesis you continue to confuse the picture/symbol/figure found with (water baptism) with the reality. (Spirit baptism) I already thoroughly covered 1 Peter 3:21; John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27 with you in multiples posts and refuted your eisegesis.

You have given your own eisegesis on those passages, but you fail to properly harmonize them with the rest of Scripture. You want to excise baptism in water (which is the only baptism in the NT Church) from those verses and call it "Spirit baptism" because you don't want to accept God at His Word.

It's right and it's impossible for you to accept because you will have to admit that you are wrong. That can be very devastating to one's pride.

I would love for you to be correct. I would love for you to be able to prove me wrong. I am not here for my pride; I am here to bring teachers of the Word to a true and proper understanding of the Word of God. If I am wrong, I pray that He would strike me down right now.

You just proved my point. You turn belief into mere mental assent belief then place repentance after belief and redefine it as moral self-reformation.

Wrong! There is no such thing as "moral self-reformation". It is impossible to reform ourselves without the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives. He begins working in our lives long before we are saved, and He brings us to repentance because we have made an intellectual acceptance of the truth of the Gospel. But that intellectual acceptance of the Gospel is not Biblical "belief". Biblical belief is faith, and faith that saves requires repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism, as Acts 3:19, Rom 10:8-10, and Acts 2:38 say.

BTW have you completely stopped sinning? Do you live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 24/7 exactly has Jesus lived? Be honest. I suppose you turn walking in the light as a work for salvation as well. In regard to 1 John 1:7 see post #244 from the link below:

Nope, I still sin. But because I continually walk in the Light, just as David walked in the Light even though he sinned, the blood of Jesus continually cleanses me from the sins that I commit. I have fallen off the path into darkness, but I immediately turned back to the path of righteousness and was forgiven, just as David was.

You turn confession into a public confession/work for salvation.

No, I do not turn it into anything. Jesus said that we must confess Him before men or He will not confess us before the Father. This is a verbal, public, not internal, not just mental, not silent, not "heads bowed and eyes closed" confession.

You also turn water baptism into a work for salvation.

No, I do not turn it into anything. Jesus said that we must be baptized to be saved. We must be born again through both the Spirit and water. We are saved through water baptism.

 

[Doug Brents]

Amen.

He sees water where thier is no water. He think God can not immerse us into himself. he needs some pastor to do it for him,

Jesus told the Apostles to do the baptizing (Matt 28:19), and this is the same baptizing that He said saves us (Mark 16:16, 1 Pet 3:21).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Jesus told the Apostles to do the baptizing (Matt 28:19), and this is the same baptizing that He said saves us (Mark 16:16, 1 Pet 3:21).

Yes, Jesus said get men saved. then baptize them

However, Jesus said in John 3, we are saved by faith in him.

Paul tells us how

By God baptizing us into Christ, His death (romans 6) his body (gal 3) and him (1 cor

no water is involved

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes, Jesus said get men saved. then baptize them

However, Jesus said in John 3, we are saved by faith in him.

Paul tells us how

By God baptizing us into Christ, His death (romans 6) his body (gal 3) and him (1 cor

no water is involved

There is only one baptism in the NT Church (Eph 4:5-6), and that one baptism must be done by man (Matt 28:19) and must include water (John 3:5, 1 Pet 3:21), and includes the working of the Holy Spirit to remove our sins (1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14), clothe us with Christ and adopt us as God's children (Eph 5:26-27), make us pure and spotless (Gal 3:26-27), and unite us with Jesus' death and resurrection (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14). Baptism is an act of faith through which we receive God's gift of salvation (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There is only one baptism in the NT Church (Eph 4:5-6), and that one baptism must be done by man (Matt 28:19) and must include water (John 3:5, 1 Pet 3:21), and includes the working of the Holy Spirit to remove our sins (1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14), clothe us with Christ and adopt us as God's children (Eph 5:26-27), make us pure and spotless (Gal 3:26-27), and unite us with Jesus' death and resurrection (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14). Baptism is an act of faith through which we receive God's gift of salvation (Eph 2:8-9).

lol. My friend, You have water on your brains.

eph 4: 5 6 washing of water by the word )the word is the source of washing, not water baptism)
Matt 28 - Make disciples. baptize them. Baptism is done after they are saved. They are not made disciples by water baptism
1 peter 3. again, peter said it does not remove filth of the flesh (sin)
col 2. This is a circumcision done NOT by the hand of men, It is not done by water baptism by the hand of man
eph 5. again, It is the words. the gospel that saves 9see John 6)
Gal 3. No water is involved. I am baptized into (not water) but into God
Rom 6, again, no water is involved, I am baptized into Christ and his death
eph 2 8-9. I have been saved by grace. not works. through faith, not water baptism.

You need to get water off your brain and look to God

 

[ARBITER01]

Those are not my words; they are God's words. And when we get to Judgement, and God tells you that He never knew you, I will feel very sorry for your hardness of heart, but I will not be able to do anything but tell you, "I warned you." Salvation is God's to give how He chose to give it, and it is received only how He says it is received.

Lol, my friend, you have no clue just how close Jesus and I are, or what plans He has for me yet.

If you think your water immersion is going to save you, by all means, plant your flag on that hill and make your stand, but I guarantee that you was not there back on January 1992 around 3:36 in the morning when I gave my life to The Lord on the back of a Naval ship, to know one way of the other whether I'm saved or not.

If you think that you're going to run sections of scripture by me trying to denounce my salvation as false somehow, and that Jesus hasn't ever known me since that early January morning, you're sadly mistaken.

In fact, after my born again by the blood experience, I got water immersed in the name of Jesus about 6 months later. I did it the same way that the apostles did in scripture, not the way some church falsely teaches. Then about a year of so later, I fasted for 2 1/2 days seeking the filling of The Holy Spirit, and was filled to the absolute brim inside with the power of GOD. Jesus was walking in the clouds above me that day, and He said "I put a big engine in you."

I haven't even began to scratch the surface on all the different heavenly experiences I've had from Jesus, The Father, and The Holy Spirit for over 30 some years. So many, that I'd have to sit down and ask The Lord to bring them all back to remembrance.

In fact, I'm probably more Christ like now at this point than you'll ever hope to be in your life, and I'm just getting fired up, ready for the next round.


You want some sort of measuring line or standard on our salvation? Well here you go,....

Joh 14:12 Truly, truly, I say to you the one believing into Me, the works which I do, shall that one do also, and greater than these shall he do, because I am going to My Father.
Joh 14:13 And whatever you may ask in My Name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

 

[ARBITER01]

Prior to my conversion several years ago on a late Saturday night, I made faith works based as well. That is the only thing that the natural man can understand. When I was born again, it was my faith reaching to Jesus Christ from the heart, trusting in Him alone for salvation that saved me. I was unable to receive water baptism until the next morning, but I knew without a doubt that I received the Holy Spirit and was saved the night before I was water baptized when I received Jesus Christ through faith. It's always faith first indeed.

Amen.

That's why the Greek over in John says born "from above." Our physical actions down here cannot renew us spiritually, it is a heavenly action upon us from GOD, and that takes faith from the heart reaching up to grant it.

Just because someone chucks me into a creek and yells "in the name of Jesus" doesn't grant me anything from GOD except some laughter from Him.

 

[Guojing]

The KJV is a good translation, but it does have some mistakes in it, this being one example.

To interpret it as the faith "of" Christ instead of faith "in" Christ would contradict many other Scriptures. It is our faith "in" Christ that brings us salvation.

It is redundant, but Scripture frequently makes redundant statements to emphasize a point. Jesus frequently said the same thing twice in quick succession to make show the importance of what He was saying.

Its not redundant if you could accept that, as far as James was concerned, his instructions to the 12 tribes of Israel required faith and works for justification (James 2:24).

To the circumcised, they are justified by faith, which requires a corresponding work, as I have already explained.

I know you believe that because you are also using James, to justify your opposing point to the other participants in this thread, who think that salvation is always by faith alone without works.

The circumcised are not saved through the faith of Christ, unlike us the uncircumcised.

So in that sense, James fully agree with Paul.

 

[Danthemailman]

Dan, I could agree with your interpretation of it if it weren't for other passages of Scripture. Rom 10:8-10 is very clear that the physical action of confessing Jesus as Lord with the mouth results in receiving salvation. That fact must influence our interpretation of Eph 2:8-9. We cannot take Eph 2:8-9 as meaning that there is no physical action we must take that leads to receiving salvation. We must understand it as emphasizing the fact that we cannot earn salvation through what we do, but there are still actions we must take, that have no meritorious value, that lead to receiving salvation.

So, you reject saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and instead, embrace saved through faith and works in which grace is no longer grace. Romans 10:8 is very clear that the word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER and Romans 10:9,10 is very clear that confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Confess/believe, believe/confess. If confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord was meant to be an "additional requirement" for salvation "after" we have been saved through faith, then confession becomes a work for salvation and Ephesians 2:8,9 and numerous other passages of Scripture (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:4 etc..) would be in error.

I have many deaf/mute friends, and their "mouth" (their tool of communication) is their hands. But even if God doesn't accept that, and it must be with their mouth, are you saying that God owes them salvation? No. God does not owe them salvation, and if they are automatically condemned because they cannot fulfill His command to verbally confess Him as Lord, God is still righteous. He may have made them just for the purpose of demonstrating His glory as it says in Rom 9:19ff.

Of course, God does not owe anyone salvation. (Romans 3:23; 6:23) It is a free gift that is received through faith and cannot be earned. So, you believe that your deaf friends may not be accepted by God for failing to verbally confess with their mouth because they are handicapped and are unable to speak? The real question is did they believe in their heart (or merely with their head) that God has raised Him from the dead. If they believed unto righteousness, then they will be saved. (Romans 4:5) For such a person the word of faith is still in their mouth, even though they are handicapped and cannot physically speak. The confession would be expressed another way, which confirms that confession is an expression of faith and not a work for salvation. It does not sound like you get this at all.

My poor deluded friend, it is you who needs to change your understanding of Eph 2:8-9 so that it agrees with Rom 10:8-10 so that you get proper harmonization.

I already properly harmonized Ephesians 2:8.9 and Romans 10:8-10. Your misinterpretation of Romans 10:8-10 ends up negating Ephesians 2:8,9.

Did the nation of Israel in any way contribute to the knocking down of the walls of Jericho by marching around it for a week? No. But God would not have knocked the wall down if they had not marched around it as He told them to do. God did (and does) it all, in response to our faith expressed through obedience to what He says leads to/results in receiving His gift of salvation.

The Israelites did not receive the gift of eternal life based on marching around the walls of Jericho. By their act of obedience, they received a blessing. God knocked down the wall. The obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel by faith results in receiving His gift of salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Ephesians 2:8,9) Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow. Refusing to believe the gospel is refusing to obey the gospel (Romans 10:16) and causes a person to remain lost. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

Nope, the gift of eternal life is just another one of God's blessings that some will receive and some will not.

So, the gift of eternal life is just another blessing in a series of blessings? Nothing special about it above other blessings?

God does not want anyone to be lost (2 Pet 3:9), but the majority of people will be lost (Matt 7:13-14).

Of course, God does not want anyone to be lost. He is not willing that anyone should perish but that all would come to repentance, but the majority will be lost because the majority will refuse to repent (change their mind) and place their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, which is the narrow way. Many will remain on the broad way of works-righteousness and unbelief which leads to destruction.

This makes it clear that there is a will other than God's that is in play here determining who will be saved and who will be lost. Rev 20:12 makes it clear that at Judgement we will be judged based on what we have done, not just what we believed.

The unrighteous dead are judged according to their deeds at the great white throne judgment and fall short of God’s holy standard and will be found wanting. (Romans 3:23) Some will receive greater condemnation than others, which suggests degrees of punishment in hell. *Matthew 23:14 - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore, you will receive greater condemnation. Also see Matthew 10:14,15; Mark 12:38-40; Luke 12:47-48.

In regard to the righteous, they will be judged at the judgment seat of Christ and their works will determine rewards or loss of rewards. (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) Notice if anyone's work is burned up at this judgment, he will suffer loss of reward but still be saved. Receiving salvation is not based on the merits of our works so that is not the deciding factor at the judgment. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Jesus already drew the line in the sand on who will and won't be saved. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. In John 5:24, we read - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but has passed from death unto life.

No, there is no boasting in receiving the gift of God. Israel didn't boast, "Look at us, we helped God knock down the walls of this city by marching around it." But the walls still might be standing today if they hadn't marched around it as they were told.

There is no boasting in receiving the gift of God/eternal life through Jesus Christ because it is not based on works. Israel did not receive the gift of eternal life for marching around the walls of the city. By your faulty human logic, you reduce the gift of eternal life down to just another blessing.

No, those verses do not become lies because baptism is required to receive salvation.

False. Nowhere does the Bible say, "water baptized or condemned." But the Bible does say believe or condemned. (Mark 16:16(b); John 3:18)

When we understand that "belief" comes from the Greek "pistis" which means faith, and that faith includes (in fact demands) action or it is not real.

The action merely demonstrates that faith is real. The action does not cause faith to become real (cart before the horse) as you teach. You basically teach that man is saved by faith "conjoined" with works in contradiction to (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9). Roman Catholics teach that man is saved by faith "infused" with works and then those works become meritorious towards receiving eternal life. Both groups try to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation by grace through faith, not works, but the shoe does not fit.

Thus, to "believe" means to have a demonstrated obedient faith. With that proper Biblical understanding of "belief" all of the actions that Scripture says lead to/result in receiving salvation are included in all of those verses you list above.

False. The Greek words for "pistis" (faith) and "pisteuo" (believe) are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in/have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of your salvation. Now this belief/faith does result in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful - Matthew 13:23) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief/faith. This is the very heart of your error which begets further error and keeps you from believing the gospel.

"Belief only-ism" is no salvation at all.

If what you mean by belief only-ism is an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone (barren of works - James 2:14) then I would agree. That is not genuine belief/faith but a bare profession of belief/faith. Authentic belief/faith is made alive in Christ and results in producing good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) You still cannot discern the difference between a bare profession of faith (James) that demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead and a living faith (Paul) that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) and results in producing good works. The natural man cannot grasp this deeper faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (1 Corinthians 2:14) and the natural man also cannot understand that James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Faith in Christ exists the moment we put action to our intellectual assent to the truth of the Gospel. If there is no action, then there is no faith.

False. Faith exists the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Ephesians 2:5-9) Faith is the root of salvation and action/works are the fruit. No action/works at all would demonstrate there is no root. You teach a "different" gospel of salvation by faith and works. The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (Romans 1:16) When will you believe?

Precisely.

No, there is no difference. You want to have an empty profession of "faith" that does nothing result in salvation, and then after the blessing of salvation is received, then you take action. That is not what Scripture commands.

Straw man argument. The object of our faith in receiving salvation is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. His finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed. You call that nothing? What it really comes down to is that you are determined to so something to help Jesus save you and take credit (at least in part) for receiving salvation. Scripture is clear that we are saved by grace through faith, not works, then created in Christ Jesus unto good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Actions/works follow salvation through faith.

You change and adapt the meaning of "justify" to fit your interpretation. "Justify" means to account as righteous.

I did not change the meaning, and the word "justify" does not have a broad brushed meaning of "accounted as righteous" as I already explained.

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Strong's #1344 - δικαιόω - Old & New Testament Greek Lexical Dictionary - StudyLight.org

Strong's #1344 - δικαιόω in the Old & New Testament Greek Lexical Dictionary on StudyLight.org

www.studylight.org

We are "justified" when God accounts us as not guilty of the sins we have committed and accounts us as righteous with the righteousness that Jesus had.

We are "justified" (accounted as righteous) the moment that we place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

James says that we are "justified" (accounted as righteous) by our works and not by our faith alone.

We are "justified" (shown to be righteous) by works and not by a bare profession of faith that remains alone (barren of works - James 2:14). Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness. Your misinterpretation of James 2:24 results in a contradiction. Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the RCC, I made the same error as you.

We are never righteous on our own, but are accounted as righteous by God through of our faith (active and alive) because of Jesus' righteous life, death, and resurrection.

We are accounted as righteous through our faith in Christ and not on our faith and works. Our faith is alive because we have been made alive together with Christ by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:5-8) which afterwards results in action. (Ephesians 2:10) Get your horse before the cart.

 

[Danthemailman]

Not at all. I trust in what God says in His Word. If He didn't say that repentance, confession of Jesus, and baptism were essential to receive salvation, I wouldn't either. But He did, so I must.

You trust in your preconceived beliefs (eisegesis) and in your church then you call that trusting in what God says in His Word.

Sometimes, faith is more hope than trust. Naaman hoped that the command of God would result in his healing more than he trusted in God, but he still did what was commanded, and it resulted in his healing and greater faith and trust in God.

Faith is the substance/assurance of things hoped for. (Hebrews 11:1) Naaman's trust revolved around receiving healing from leprosy and not receiving remission of sins when he dipped in Jordan.

One supernatural blessing/gift of God is the same an every other supernatural blessing/gift of God. As Jesus said, which is easier, to forgive sin or to heal? Both are equally impossible for man. But both are equally as possible for God.

Impossible for man yet you are still seeking to receive salvation based on man's way. You must do something to help save yourself. You refuse to trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, so you turn to supplements.

Just as the water of Jordan was required but immaterial in the actual cleansing of Naaman's skin, so the water of baptism is required but immaterial in our salvation.

Faulty human logic.

The water does not do the cleansing (the Holy Spirit does that), but if we do not pass through the water the Holy Spirit does not remove our sins, just as Naaman would not have been healed if he had not dipped.

More faulty human logic. You just don't get it.

Acts 10:43 does not say that the Gentiles were forgiven when the Spirit fell on them. It says that all those who exhibit faith in God receive forgiveness of sins. The Gentiles had not yet exhibited faith in God when the Spirit fell on them. They had barely heard the Gospel. And while they were already God fearing, and were probably already saved under the OT, they were now under the NT and required baptism as the NT Scriptures say.

Acts 10:43 clearly states whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. These Gentiles clearly believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:17) and spoke in tongues (spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). They heard enough of the gospel to be saved. These passages of Scripture are crystal clear, but you are forced to twist them in order to make them accommodate your biased church doctrine.

Again, the reception of the gift of the Holy Spirit (tongues and praise) does not indicate salvation.

Wow! Talk about straight up denial and blatant dishonesty! You cannot receive the spiritual gift of tongues (which is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) until you first receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and are saved. This absolutely DOES indicate salvation.

They still required baptism in water, as Peter prescribed for them, in order to receive forgiveness of their sins.

False. Water baptism followed their salvation.

No, they were not yet saved under the NT. They were not yet in Christ, clothed with Christ, adopted into the family of God, forgiven, etc. because they had not yet been born again of water and the Spirit. Jesus said both were required, and they had received neither. The miraculous empowerment of the Spirit is not the same as the indwelling of the Spirit

More blatant denial and dishonesty.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs during water baptism.

False. (Matthew 3:11; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; 15:7-9; Ephesians 1:13)

The event on Pentecost and with Cornelius is not the "baptism of the Holy Spirit". That event has occurred only those two times. If that is the requirement for salvation, then only those 120 in the upper room on Pentecost and those in Cornelius' house were saved. But we know that over 5000 were saved in one day after the Holy Spirit fell on the 120, and He did not fall on those 5000 in tongues of fire. I do not reject the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but I do put it in its proper place, and understand what it is and when it occurs.

This is absolutely false and is a desperate attempt to "get around" the truth found in Acts 10:43-47. You truly are deceived.

You have given your own eisegesis on those passages, but you fail to properly harmonize them with the rest of Scripture.

That statement is the epitome of IRONY.

You want to excise baptism in water (which is the only baptism in the NT Church) from those verses and call it "Spirit baptism" because you don't want to accept God at His Word.

I would love for you to be correct. I would love for you to be able to prove me wrong. I am not here for my pride; I am here to bring teachers of the Word to a true and proper understanding of the Word of God. If I am wrong, I pray that He would strike me down right now.

Your church indoctrination runs very deep. Only the Lord can open your eyes to the truth. All I can do is plant seeds and hope and pray they get watered.

Wrong! There is no such thing as "moral self-reformation". It is impossible to reform ourselves without the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

Why do you think I said moral SELF reformation. Man seeking to reform himself apart from the Holy Spirit. We see this all the time with folks who attend false religions and cults. Such folks are what I would call, "religious, but not right with God." See Romans 10:1-4 for one example.

He begins working in our lives long before we are saved, and He brings us to repentance because we have made an intellectual acceptance of the truth of the Gospel. But that intellectual acceptance of the Gospel is not Biblical "belief". Biblical belief is faith, and faith that saves requires repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism, as Acts 3:19, Rom 10:8-10, and Acts 2:38 say.

God draws us (John 6:44) and enables us (John 6:65) yet we still need to choose to believe the gospel. Biblical belief in the gospel that saves is trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and not merely intellectual acceptance that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened." Even the demons believe it happened. By your deluded gospel, you turn repentance, confession and baptism into works for salvation then redefine faith to include works for salvation. You are obsessed with accomplishing a check list of works (with a heavy emphasis on water baptism) so that you can say that you accomplished something to help Christ save you and did not simply believe. That's too easy or even foolish, right? (1 Corinthians 1:18-21)

Nope, I still sin.

Amen! None of us are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless 100% of the time. Only Jesus Christ was.

But because I continually walk in the Light, just as David walked in the Light even though he sinned, the blood of Jesus continually cleanses me from the sins that I commit. I have fallen off the path into darkness, but I immediately turned back to the path of righteousness and was forgiven, just as David was.

Did you read my post #244 from the link below?

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...cumentary-on-youtube-promoting-a-works-based-
salvation.8296969/page-13#post-77869286

It looks like the link may have been broken so I will copy my post for you. *Be sure to notice how I properly harmonized Scripture with Scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is 'descriptive' of children of the devil. Walking in the light is 'descriptive' of children of God. Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In verse 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother.

*Notice that "walks in darkness" and "hates his brother" is associated with "children of the devil" and not children of God.

No, I do not turn it into anything. Jesus said that we must confess Him before men or He will not confess us before the Father. This is a verbal, public, not internal, not just mental, not silent, not "heads bowed and eyes closed" confession.

No, I do not turn it into anything. Jesus said that we must be baptized to be saved. We must be born again through both the Spirit and water. We are saved through water baptism.

Now you are citing from Matthew chapter 10 in your further efforts to turn confession into a work for salvation. In regard to Matthew 10:32-33, the broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him everywhere they went. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven.

Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession - Matthew 7:22-23) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him. (John 3:18; 10:9; 14:6)

The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisees and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:22-23 but lack saving faith in Christ) will be denied by Christ before the Father.

No, Jesus never said that we must be water baptized in order to be saved but your church says that.

Jesus did say that we must believe in Him in order to be saved. (John 3:18) He who believes in Him [who clings to, trusts in, relies on Him] is not judged [he who trusts in Him never comes up for judgment; for him there is no rejection, no condemnation—he incurs no damnation]; but he who does not believe (cleave to, rely on, trust in Him) is judged already [he has already been convicted and has already received his sentence] because he has not believed in and trusted in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [He is condemned for refusing to let his trust rest in Christ’s name.] (AMPC)

You believe in [cling to, trust in, rely on] your baptism + other works and not in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Once again, only the Lord can open your eyes to the truth. All I can do is plant seeds and hope and pray they get watered.

 

[Doug Brents]

lol. My friend, You have water on your brains.

eph 4: 5 6 washing of water by the word )the word is the source of washing, not water baptism)

The Word is absolutely the source of the washing, but it is done through water. And just as Jesus said, you cannot be born again without both water and the Spirit (John 3:5). The water is also essential.

Matt 28 - Make disciples. baptize them. Baptism is done after they are saved. They are not made disciples by water baptism

Being a disciple is not an indication of being saved. All of the people Jesus says He never knew (Matt 7:21-23) were still disciples.

1 peter 3. again, peter said it does not remove filth of the flesh (sin)

It says "filth from the flesh", not filth OF the flesh. It is not saying that water baptism does not remove sin. It is saying it does not remove dirt, physical dirt from the skin. Water baptism is about spiritual cleansing (receiving a clean conscience), not physical cleansing.

col 2. This is a circumcision done NOT by the hand of men, It is not done by water baptism by the hand of man

Read that again more carefully. The circumcision done without hands is done during baptism (in water). It is the circumcision that is done without hands. There is no reference to the baptism being without hands.

eph 5. again, It is the words. the gospel that saves 9see John 6)

Again, you are partially correct. It is the Gospel that saves through water baptism. It is in water baptism that we are washed clean and made spotless.

Gal 3. No water is involved. I am baptized into (not water) but into God

And again, there is only one baptism in the NT Church (Eph 4:5-6). And according to 1 Pet 3:21 that baptism that saves is in water. And according to Matt 28:19, that baptism is one that man (the teacher) must do. And according to Acts 2:38, that baptism is one that man (the student) must receive.

Rom 6, again, no water is involved, I am baptized into Christ and his death

And again, only one baptism in the NT Church.

eph 2 8-9. I have been saved by grace. not works. through faith, not water baptism.

What is faith? It is not a mental only exercise. Faith requires action or it is not real (James 2:26). Faith is the evidence and substance of our belief (Heb 11:1). Our actions complete our faith (James 2:24), and without our actions, what we want to call faith is dead and useless (James 2:20, 22, 24, 26).

You need to get water off your brain and look to God

It is to God that I look always. He is the one who made the rules on how His gift of salvation is received. He is the one who said we cannot be born again without both water and the Spirit. You want to leave out half of the recipe and still end up with a proper cake.

 

[Doug Brents]

Lol, my friend, you have no clue just how close Jesus and I are, or what plans He has for me yet.

If you think your water immersion is going to save you, by all means, plant your flag on that hill and make your stand, but I guarantee that you was not there back on January 1992 around 3:36 in the morning when I gave my life to The Lord on the back of a Naval ship, to know one way of the other whether I'm saved or not.

You're right, I wasn't there. But I don't need to have been there to know that "giving your life to the Lord", saying some prayer in your heart to "ask God into your heart" is irrelevant to salvation. There is absolutely no passage of Scripture anywhere that shows salvation is received in this manner. Yet we are told that to be born again we must have both water and the Spirit (John 3:5), and we are told that water baptism is what saves us (1 Pet 3:21), and we are told that Paul was instructed to "... arise, and be baptized and wash away your sins calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16).

If you think that you're going to run sections of scripture by me trying to denounce my salvation as false somehow, and that Jesus hasn't ever known me since that early January morning, you're sadly mistaken.

In fact, after my born again by the blood experience, I got water immersed in the name of Jesus about 6 months later.

Then you were saved about 6 months after you thought you were. I am very glad that you finally obeyed the Lord, and I am very glad you did not die during those 6 months when you thought you were saved but were not yet.

I did it the same way that the apostles did in scripture, not the way some church falsely teaches. Then about a year of so later, I fasted for 2 1/2 days seeking the filling of The Holy Spirit, and was filled to the absolute brim inside with the power of GOD. Jesus was walking in the clouds above me that day, and He said "I put a big engine in you."

I haven't even began to scratch the surface on all the different heavenly experiences I've had from Jesus, The Father, and The Holy Spirit for over 30 some years. So many, that I'd have to sit down and ask The Lord to bring them all back to remembrance.

In fact, I'm probably more Christ like now at this point than you'll ever hope to be in your life, and I'm just getting fired up, ready for the next round.

I am very glad you have had some wonderful experiences with the Lord. But the phrase in your statement above that I underlined makes this whole section into a lie. If you were that Christlike, then you would never try to denigrate me in that way. You don't know me, nor do you have any idea what I have or have not done in my life.

You want some sort of measuring line or standard on our salvation? Well here you go,....

Joh 14:12 Truly, truly, I say to you the one believing into Me, the works which I do, shall that one do also, and greater than these shall he do, because I am going to My Father.
Joh 14:13 And whatever you may ask in My Name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Great passage of Scripture. But is this passage more God's Word than 1 Pet 3:21, or Acts 2:38, or John 3:5? You want to focus on verses that only mention "belief" and ignore the passages that tell us there are specific actions that are included in what it means to "believe". All Scripture is equally true at the same time.

 

[Doug Brents]

Its not redundant if you could accept that, as far as James was concerned, his instructions to the 12 tribes of Israel required faith and works for justification (James 2:24).

To the circumcised, they are justified by faith, which requires a corresponding work, as I have already explained.

I know you believe that because you are also using James, to justify your opposing point to the other participants in this thread, who think that salvation is always by faith alone without works.

The circumcised are not saved through the faith of Christ, unlike us the uncircumcised.

So in that sense, James fully agree with Paul.

There is now no circumcised or uncircumcised (Gal 5:6-7, Gal 3:28). Salvation is the same for everyone, because there is no difference between them anymore. There is only one way to be saved today (and since the cross), and that is through faith in Jesus Christ. And faith is not passive, or "belief only", but requires action to be real and effective.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The Word is absolutely the source of the washing, but it is done through water. And just as Jesus said, you cannot be born again without both water and the Spirit (John 3:5). The water is also essential.

um no. The word is the water. or better yet the HS is.

Being a disciple is not an indication of being saved. All of the people Jesus says He never knew (Matt 7:21-23) were still disciples.

He did not say make them disciples by water baptizing them

It says "filth from the flesh", not filth OF the flesh. It is not saying that water baptism does not remove sin. It is saying it does not remove dirt, physical dirt from the skin. Water baptism is about spiritual cleansing (receiving a clean conscience), not physical cleansing.

Filth, the term means sin
Flesh is the technical term for our flesh. or the thing which condemns us.

It does not remove filth from the flesh. To think Peter is talking about physical cleansing here is non sensical. The ressurection of Christ does not physically cleans us, but it is the means of our salvation.

Read that again more carefully. The circumcision done without hands is done during baptism (in water).

So the circumcision without hand is done with hands?

lol.. Wow

It is the circumcision that is done without hands. There is no reference to the baptism being without hands.

1. Jesus spoke of a baptism with which he would be baptized with. No water involved

2. he told the disciples they too would be baptized with this. again no water involved

3. John the baptist said jesus would baptize with the holy spirit and with fire.

Again, You got water on your brains. release it and be set free

Again, you are partially correct. It is the Gospel that saves through water baptism. It is in water baptism that we are washed clean and made spotless.

That is incorrect.

I am made clean and washed by the blood of the lamb, not water

And again, there is only one baptism in the NT Church (Eph 4:5-6). And according to 1 Pet 3:21 that baptism that saves is in water. And according to Matt 28:19, that baptism is one that man (the teacher) must do. And according to Acts 2:38, that baptism is one that man (the student) must receive.

Again, this is in error. see above.

also. not in acts ten and eleven. the gentiles were baptized with the spirit before they were baptized in water. just like peter said the disciples were.

Acts 11:16
Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

And again, only one baptism in the NT Church.

What is faith? It is not a mental only exercise. Faith requires action or it is not real (James 2:26). Faith is the evidence and substance of our belief (Heb 11:1). Our actions complete our faith (James 2:24), and without our actions, what we want to call faith is dead and useless (James 2:20, 22, 24, 26).

It is to God that I look always. He is the one who made the rules on how His gift of salvation is received. He is the one who said we cannot be born again without both water and the Spirit. You want to leave out half of the recipe and still end up with a proper cake.

Your replacing the baptism of God with the baptism of water.

The is blasphemy through and through.

 

[Doug Brents]

So, you reject saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and instead, embrace saved through faith and works in which grace is no longer grace.

No. I reject the idea that there are no actions that God tells us are required to receive salvation, because Rom 10:8-10 debunks that false idea.

Romans 10:8 is very clear that the word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER and Romans 10:9,10 is very clear that confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Confess/believe, believe/confess.

How many times do we have to go over this? The word of faith is the Gospel that Paul preached. And that word of faith was in the mouths and hearts of the readers of Romans already, because they had already been saved. But to the new hearer of the Gospel that word of faith is not already in their hearts and mouths. They must receive it, and to receive it they must believe and confess the Lord (along with what is said in other verses).

If confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord was meant to be an "additional requirement" for salvation "after" we have been saved through faith, then confession becomes a work for salvation and Ephesians 2:8,9 and numerous other passages of Scripture (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:4 etc..) would be in error.

Not at all, because it is not an "additional requirement". It is an act of faith that is included in every reference to faith and belief in all those verses you like to focus on while ignoring the other verses that give more details.

Of course, God does not owe anyone salvation. (Romans 3:23; 6:23) It is a free gift that is received through faith and cannot be earned. So, you believe that your deaf friends may not be accepted by God for failing to verbally confess with their mouth because they are handicapped and are unable to speak?

No, I believe that God accepts the confession they gave with their hands (their "mouth") through sign-language (their "verbal" language).

The real question is did they believe in their heart (or merely with their head) that God has raised Him from the dead. If they believed unto righteousness, then they will be saved. (Romans 4:5)

"Belief unto righteousness" is an active, obedient, living faith, and it includes repentance from sin, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism.

For such a person the word of faith is still in their mouth, even though they are handicapped and cannot physically speak. The confession would be expressed another way, which confirms that confession is an expression of faith and not a work for salvation. It does not sound like you get this at all.

Confession of Jesus very much is an expression of faith, and it is absolutely required in order to receive forgiveness of sin/salvation.

I already properly harmonized Ephesians 2:8.9 and Romans 10:8-10. Your misinterpretation of Romans 10:8-10 ends up negating Ephesians 2:8,9.

No you didn't, and no it does not. But we have already covered it multiple times and you refuse to accept the truth.

The Israelites did not receive the gift of eternal life based on marching around the walls of Jericho. By their act of obedience, they received a blessing.

And salvation is nothing more or less than a gift/blessing from God. And by our obedience to what God says must be done to receive it we receive His gift of salvation.

God knocked down the wall. The obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel by faith results in receiving His gift of salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Ephesians 2:8,9) Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow.

So you're saying that God knocked the walls down and then they marched around them, after they had received the gift? Got it. Thanks for clarifying what Scripture tells us (sarcasm totally intended).

Refusing to believe the gospel is refusing to obey the gospel (Romans 10:16) and causes a person to remain lost. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

You have it backwards. Refusing to obey the Gospel is refusing to believe it. One does not really believe it if they do not obey it.

So, the gift of eternal life is just another blessing in a series of blessings? Nothing special about it above other blessings?

Can you, by your own power and authority (without aid or mechanism), restore a withered limb, or cure leprosy, or restore sight, or raise the dead, or knock down the walls to a city, or make oil pour from a 2 oz. jar and fill several gallon jars, or make a measure of oil and flour feed three people for several months? No? Neither can I. All of these are far beyond the capacity of any human, but they are well within God's power and authority. And forgiving sin is equally within His power and authority, but beyond ours. So yes, while it is a very special and significant blessing, it is just one of the blessing that are within His power to give to whomever He wills by whatever mechanism He alone chooses to give it.

Of course, God does not want anyone to be lost. He is not willing that anyone should perish but that all would come to repentance, but the majority will be lost because the majority will refuse to repent (change their mind) and place their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, which is the narrow way. Many will remain on the broad way of works-righteousness and unbelief which leads to destruction.

Repentance is just one of the things that God says lead to receiving His blessing of forgiveness (Acts 3:19). He also says that confessing His Son as Lord results in salvation (Rom 10:8-10), and being baptized results in salvation (Acts 2:38). That does not equate to "works-righteousness", but to obedience to Jesus as your Lord.

The unrighteous dead are judged according to their deeds at the great white throne judgment and fall short of God’s holy standard and will be found wanting. (Romans 3:23) Some will receive greater condemnation than others, which suggests degrees of punishment in hell. *Matthew 23:14 - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore, you will receive greater condemnation. Also see Matthew 10:14,15; Mark 12:38-40; Luke 12:47-48.

Not just the unrighteous dead are before the Throne at Judgement. All will stand before the Throne, and some will be sent to the right and some to the left; some to everlasting peace, and some to everlasting punishment. All will be judged by their deeds, but some of them will have their deeds overshadowed by the cleansing of the blood of the Lamb, because they trusted in Him and did what He commanded them to do to receive His gift of forgiveness.

False. Nowhere does the Bible say, "water baptized or condemned." But the Bible does say believe or condemned. (Mark 16:16(b); John 3:18)

Believe = faith. And John 3:5 does indeed say water baptized or condemned. You cannot be born again (thus saved/forgiven) unless you are born of water and the Spirit. And 1 Pet 3:21 says that we are saved (born again) through water baptism.

The action merely demonstrates that faith is real. The action does not cause faith to become real (cart before the horse) as you teach.

So you are saying that something can be real even if there is no evidence of its reality? Hmm. That seems to be the cart before the horse. If something is real, it will have evidence of its reality. If there is no evidence of its reality, then it is not real.

You basically teach that man is saved by faith "conjoined" with works

No. We are saved by God's grace (gift) THROUGH faith. But as has been pointed out, there is no faith without action.

False. The Greek words for "pistis" (faith) and "pisteuo" (believe) are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works.

That is because the Biblical definition of "pistis" is not taken into account. Heb 11 and James 2 clearly define faith as including, and being completely useless without, works/action.

If you believe in/have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of your salvation. Now this belief/faith does result in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful - Matthew 13:23) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief/faith. This is the very heart of your error which begets further error and keeps you from believing the gospel.

The error is yours in thinking that the actions are not inherent in faith. If there is no action then the "faith" is completely dead and useless; it has no soul. The body of man had no life in it until god breathed the soul into it, and then it became a living being. Just so, faith without action is a soulless husk and has no power, meaning, or life.

If what you mean by belief only-ism is an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone (barren of works - James 2:14) then I would agree. That is not genuine belief/faith but a bare profession of belief/faith. Authentic belief/faith is made alive in Christ and results in producing good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

Authentic belief/faith takes the actions that God says will result in receiving His blessing of salvation/forgiveness. If there is no action, then the belief/faith is not authentic.

You still cannot discern the difference between a bare profession of faith (James) that demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead and a living faith (Paul) that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) and results in producing good works.

Yes, I can. Any "faith" that does not do what God says leads to receiving His gift, does not receive His gift, and is a bare profession of faith. Any "faith" that acts on what God says will result in receiving His gift receives His gift, and is a real, living faith.

False. Faith exists the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Ephesians 2:5-9)

If you have not done what He says, then you have not put your faith in Him. You have not put your faith in Him if you have not done what He said to do to receive His gift.

Faith is the root of salvation and action/works are the fruit.

Faith, and the actions that make it alive (the actions that God said lead to receiving His gift) are the root of salvation. The fruit of the Spirit is the fruit of salvation.

No action/works at all would demonstrate there is no root. You teach a "different" gospel of salvation by faith and works. The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (Romans 1:16) When will you believe?

I believed back in 1986. That is when I trusted in God to remove my sins by being washed in His blood through baptism, having confessed Him as Lord of my life, and turned away from sin in my life. If someone doesn't repent, confess Jesus, and be baptized, then they really don't trust in Jesus as the only path to salvation (which is what it means to trust in Him as the all-sufficient means of salvation).

You think that being the "all sufficient" means of salvation means that there is nothing we have to do to receive it. But if I buy a car for you and leave it at the dealership near you, I have become the "all sufficient" means of purchasing that car. You have to show up to pick up the car, but that doesn't mean you contributed to the purchase of the car. But you don't get to use the car until you show up and collect it. Showing up is repentance, confession, and baptism. They in no way contribute to the purchase of salvation, but they are essential for receiving it.

I did not change the meaning, and the word "justify" does not have a broad brushed meaning of "accounted as righteous" as I already explained.

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Strong's #1344 - δικαιόω - Old & New Testament Greek Lexical Dictionary - StudyLight.org

Strong's #1344 - δικαιόω in the Old & New Testament Greek Lexical Dictionary on StudyLight.org

www.studylight.org

We are "justified" (accounted as righteous) the moment that we place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

We are "justified" (shown to be righteous) by works and not by a bare profession of faith that remains alone (barren of works - James 2:14). Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness. Your misinterpretation of James 2:24 results in a contradiction. Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the RCC, I made the same error as you.

We are accounted as righteous through our faith in Christ and not on our faith and works. Our faith is alive because we have been made alive together with Christ by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:5-8) which afterwards results in action. (Ephesians 2:10) Get your horse before the cart.

Justification is imputed apart from works of righteousness, not apart from any works at all (as is evidenced by Rom 10:8-10, Acts 22:16, 1 Pet 3:21, Acts 3:19, etc.). It is an accounting term. In terms of salvation, it means to be accounted as righteous. We cannot make ourselves righteous, but must be declared righteous before God by God in an exchange of our filthy rags for His clean robes. We are pronounced righteous by God because we have obeyed Him in what He said will result in our receiving His gift of justification. It does not matter what we wish to be considered, and we certainly cannot be counted as righteous "such as [we] are". It takes the supernatural changing of God to make us righteous, and He does this be the accounting exchange of accounts: He takes our bankruptsy of death and sin and gives us His balance of righeousness and life.

 

[ARBITER01]

You're right, I wasn't there. But I don't need to have been there to know that "giving your life to the Lord", saying some prayer in your heart to "ask God into your heart" is irrelevant to salvation. There is absolutely no passage of Scripture anywhere that shows salvation is received in this manner.

You're either ignorant of scripture or ignoring passagess on purpose,....

Act 2:21 And it shall be, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach:
Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
Rom 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be put to shame.

Salvation comes from the heart, spoken unto The Lord Jesus. There are probably other passages that point this out also. Ignore them at your own peril.

Then you were saved about 6 months after you thought you were. I am very glad that you finally obeyed the Lord, and I am very glad you did not die during those 6 months when you thought you were saved but were not yet.

You just don't have a clue. We are born by the blood of Jesus, it's the only way you are added to the family of GOD,.... by blood, not water.

I am very glad you have had some wonderful experiences with the Lord. But the phrase in your statement above that I underlined makes this whole section into a lie. If you were that Christlike, then you would never try to denigrate me in that way. You don't know me, nor do you have any idea what I have or have not done in my life.

Oh, I know you enough. You deserve some hard truth. If you are not trying to be Christ-like and going through trials, then you're illegitimate like scripture says in Hebrews.

You can't be like Jesus if your not born from above.