Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved ?

[Eternally Grateful]

One doesn't get baptized to get saved.

Your right. They get baptized in obedience to God after they are saved

One is saved through God's gift and work of baptism to regenerate us.

-CryptoLutheran

Now you contradicted yourself by saying your saved by the work of baptism. Which makes it a Work of merit

 

[ViaCrucis]

Your right. They get baptized in obedience to God after they are saved

That's not what the Bible says.

Now you contradicted yourself by saying your saved by the work of baptism. Which makes it a Work of merit

No contradiction.

Pay attention to the words I'm using. The one being baptized is passive, God is the active agent.

If I drive to your house and drop off a million dollars on your door step, is that your work or my work?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Yarddog]

I was just wondering does a person need to be baptized in water in order to be saved ?

Getting baptized is important but it is more important to follow God's plan for you. I was raised in the Baptist church and they asked us to be baptized. My two older brothers agreed but I said no because it wasn't time, yet. A few years later, when I was about 12, I stopped going to that Church because I wasn't comfortable with the fire and brimstone preaching.

Others, as I got into my twenties, asked me about it and I'd tell them that it wasn't time.

When I was 28, I experienced some bad things and almost committed suicide. God intervened and I had an epiphany. It was then that he told me to be baptized. It was my time.

Baptism is needed but God may have plans for you.

 

[Aaron112]

I do not like ai, but it has insinuated itself into most of the internet, searches and otherwise.
example:
"
AI Overview

If someone drove to your house and dropped off a million dollars on your doorstep, you should immediately contact the local authorities; it's highly likely the money is either stolen or involved in illegal activity, and keeping it could lead to legal repercussions, even if you had no knowledge of its origin."

 

[ViaCrucis]

I do not like ai, but it has insinuated itself into most of the internet, searches and otherwise.
example:
"
AI Overview

If someone drove to your house and dropped off a million dollars on your doorstep, you should immediately contact the local authorities; it's highly likely the money is either stolen or involved in illegal activity, and keeping it could lead to legal repercussions, even if you had no knowledge of its origin."

Perhaps you could ask the AI what it says about finding a treasure in a field.

Edit: Nevermind, I already did.

Finding a treasure in the middle of a field is an exciting and mysterious situation, and there are a few important steps to follow:

1. Stay Calm and Document the Discovery​

• Don’t touch or move the treasure too much, as this could affect its value or legal status.
• Take clear photographs of the location and the treasure itself. Make sure to document everything about the find, including the time, date, and circumstances of the discovery.

2. Check Local Laws and Regulations​

• Research the laws in your area regarding treasure hunting and found objects. In many countries, if you find a treasure, it may legally belong to the government or to the owner of the land.
• Some places follow the "finders keepers" rule, while others have laws that require you to report such finds to the authorities, especially if the object is of historical or archaeological value.
• In many places, the discovery could fall under archaeological heritage laws, and you may be required to report it to a local museum, heritage organization, or government agency.

3. Report the Discovery​

• Contact local authorities, such as the police, a local museum, or an archaeologist. They can help assess the significance of the find and ensure it's handled properly.
• Some countries or regions have specific "treasure trove" laws, which mandate that you report your find to authorities within a certain time frame.

4. Get Expert Advice​

• If it appears to be valuable or unusual (such as old coins, artifacts, or precious materials), it’s a good idea to have an expert in archaeology, history, or numismatics (coin collecting) assess the treasure.
• An expert can help identify the item and its possible historical significance, as well as advise you on next steps.

5. Understand the Ownership​

• Ownership of the treasure may depend on local laws, your relationship to the land, and the circumstances under which it was found.
• If you found it on private land, the landowner may have a claim to the treasure. If it’s on public land, the treasure may be considered property of the state.
• There may be reward programs or compensation available to people who find treasures, depending on the jurisdiction.

6. Preserve the Treasure​

• Do not clean or alter the treasure. Improper handling can reduce its value or historical significance.
• Store it safely in a secure location until experts or authorities can examine it.

By following these steps, you’ll ensure that your discovery is handled responsibly, and you’ll also be compliant with the law.

I wonder if, perhaps, ChatGPT and other AI might not be very adept at grasping the concept of parable, metaphor, or looking to a deeper context.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That's absolutely correct.

Jesus stated the contrast, we are either born of The Spirit or born of the flesh. Water immersion in scripture only follows our birth by The Holy Spirit, our born from above heavenly gift.

It's only a demonstration materially what has already happened to us Spiritually.

Yes! Water baptism is not found in John 3. We are born of the spirit by faith in the cross and Christ who was raised on it

That's not what the Bible says.

Yeah it is

We are made disciples first then baptized

No contradiction.

Huge contradiction

Pay attention to the words I'm using. The one being baptized is passive, God is the active agent.

Not in water baptism, the one baptizing you is plus you are just like in circumcision

If I drive to your house and drop off a million dollars on your door step, is that your work or my work?

It’s your work just like water baptism is your work

-CryptoLutheran

?

 

[Guojing]

Your trying to twist what is actually going on in an attempt to maintain your gospel of works.

I agreed with you A implies C, it is still the lack of faith that cause one not to be saved.

Justification by faith is not a gospel of works, so I don't get your uproar here in saying I am twisting.

Instead, I am trying to explain our disagreement clearly using logical reasoning of premises and conclusions, so that everyone who is reading can understand.

Building the ark has no bearing on his eternal salvation. Now it died on his physical salvation. And saved mankind from being wiped off the face of the earth. He and his wife essentially became a new Adam and Eve, but it had no bearing on his eternal life.

So basically you agree

A implies B
A implies C

But somehow you don't want to agree A implies B implies C. You continue to insist that B has nothing to do with C at all.

Basically you disagree with chain reasoning or Hypothetical Syllogism

Alright then, I can now understand the extent to which you are willing to think to hold on to your doctrine that everyone is saved by faith alone, without works at all times.

 

[Guojing]

You're not going to get many straight answers from him.

He has an odd sort of messianic type of belief that pushes following the law of moses at all costs, as well as an unhealthy fixation on Israel in the scriptures, in other words, every section of scripture has something to do with israel instead of the gentiles. Every answer you give him only sparks more questions out of him.

My straight answer was found at the beginning of my exchange with all of you here Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved ?

"But we, the uncircumcised are justified through faith of Christ (Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16), which does not require works (Romans 4:5)."

You obviously ignored that conclusion when you claim I "pushes following the law of moses at all costs"

 

[Guojing]

I am confused.

Noah did not have to build the ark

but we need to be baptized in water.

Whats the difference? They are both in this context works of merit.

He just wants to disagree with me

 

[ARBITER01]

My straight answer was found at the beginning of my exchange with all of you here Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved ?

"But we, the uncircumcised are justified through faith of Christ (Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16), which does not require works (Romans 4:5)."

You obviously ignored that conclusion when you claim I "pushes following the law of moses at all costs"

My assessment of your actions on here is absolutely correct.

 

[Guojing]

My assessment of your actions on here is absolutely correct.

How am I pushing following the law of moses at all costs?

 

[Aaron112]

Jesus said in Matthew 5:19: ” Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

 

[Doug Brents]

I disagree.

Chapter 11 is the faith chapter, not the works chapter. It is their faith that is praised by GOD, not any works of theirs that followed.

Faith always comes first.

Their faith would not have been real, it would not have existed at all, without their actions. Each of the people mentioned did what they did "by" or "in" faith. It was their faith that made their actions meaningful, and it was their actions that made their faith complete. Both are required, or neither has any meaning.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Their faith would not have been real, it would not have existed at all, without their actions. Each of the people mentioned did what they did "by" or "in" faith. It was their faith that made their actions meaningful, and it was their actions that made their faith complete. Both are required, or neither has any meaning.

see. we have this backwards.

Faith is the power.

If we have faith, there will be works. we work because we trust God and are assured

if we donot have faith. we either will not work. or the works we do will be self evident to be self focused. which is bloody rags or self righteous works. and not works of faith at all.

People need to focus on faith. not works.

 

[Doug Brents]

The way to reconcile both your views is the following statement by Paul in Romans 3:30

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Hebrews 11, written to the circumcised, is about justification by faith, which requires a corresponding work.

As James would further explain to the 12 tribes of Israel, their justification, is based on faith and works (James 2:24)

But we, the uncircumcised are justified through faith of Christ (Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16), which does not require works (Romans 4:5).

We are justified by our faith IN Christ, not the faith OF Christ. And as Rom 3:22 states, there is no distinction between "the circumcision" (Jews) and "the uncircumcision) (Gentiles), so there is no distinction between the faith required of the two groups. The two groups are now one, and there is no separation, distinction, or division between them. The same faith (requiring works to be real) is required of all mankind.

 

[Aaron112]

People need to focus on faith. not works.

You should know better than that ! (I think)

Follow Jesus. Be becoming like an infant/ little child, trusting Him.
Listen to His Voice all the time. Test everything though, by Scripture and/or in prayer. The enemy might imitate Jesus and trick multitudes.(as it is happening today)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We are justified by our faith IN Christ, not the faith OF Christ. And as Rom 3:22 states, there is no distinction between "the circumcision" (Jews) and "the uncircumcision) (Gentiles), so there is no distinction between the faith required of the two groups. The two groups are now one, and there is no separation, distinction, or division between them. The same faith (requiring works to be real) is required of all mankind.

yes, Paul in romans 4 makes this clear

Romans 4: 16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be [d]sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”


23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You should know better than that ! (I think)

Follow Jesus. Be becoming like an infant/ little child, trusting Him.
Listen to His Voice all the time. Test everything though, by Scripture and/or in prayer. The enemy might imitate Jesus and trick multitudes.(as it is happening today)

focusing on works and not faith has been an issue going all the way back to adam.

Its the oldest trick in the book. Yet satan's lie still has teeth

 

[Aaron112]

focusing on works and not faith

Focus on Jesus, Listen to Jesus, Read what Jesus Says TO DO,
and as written, let everything done, everything every day you do, be what the Father directs you to do. Likewise, every word.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Focus on Jesus, Listen to Jesus, Read what Jesus Says TO DO,
and as written, let everything done, everything every day you do, be what the Father directs you to do. Likewise, every word.

Thats all fine and dandy.

But if you do not focus on him offering to adopt you as his son, and save you from your sins.

You can try you best to do all Jesus said you should do. You will still be lost in your sin,.

A non believer needs to be born aga8in first. THEN they can focus on what Jesus said to do. otherwise. he is just another religious person.