Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved ?

[Eternally Grateful]

Take Hebrews 11:7 example of Noah, you just need to ask yourself this question

"If Noah believed God that there will be a flood, but refused to do the work God commanded him (Genesis 6:14) to build an ark, will he have been saved?"

and you will realize the silliness of the statement you made above.

You still fail to see the significant of faith.

as Heb 11 says, faith is the substance of things hoped for. The evidence of things not seen.

Let use Noah as an example

1. The substance - the substance was Noah’s salvation, its was also the comming flood
2. The hope was Noah’s trust that God was going to do it.
3. The salvation was set in stone the moment Noah said yes. And trusted God.
4. The results of this salvation was noah spent a 100 years being fully convinced of the substance, and fully convinced of the hope that God would save him.

Abraham is a perfect example. In general we are told abraham believed God, and abrahams faith was credited for righteousness (he was fully saved at that moment)

A better passage for you to read in Romans 4. Because paul is making the point that Abraham was nto saved because he did the things mentioned in Heb 11, He was saved because he had faith.

romans 4: 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

The ame thing goes for Noah, he was fully convinced, and we know. Just like in abraham and all he did after. That noah had the same faith, being fully convinced that hr who had promised as able to perform.

Paul is c Lear. If abraham (or noah) was saved because of what they did (works0 they have something to boast about. As paul Al’s said, he who works imposed debt, but he who has faith is saved.

again, no one at any time, was saved by works. Period.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That is not exactly the same as what Paul explained to us gentiles now in Romans 4:5.

We have no need to demonstrate our faith in any work TODAY to be saved, would you agree?

No, why would anyone agree with this?

4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was [b]accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

This is true for abraham, All jews. And all gentiles.. all people of all time

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Faith without works is
like a dead body laying on the ground, not breathing.

Yes, it is dead, it is lifeless, It has no power. Has no power to save, and has no power to work. Because it is not based on hope. It is based on a mistrust, a lack of faith.

we are saved by grace through faith

We are not saved by grace apart from faith.

in either case, not of works lest anyone should boast.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And Noah had to?

He did not have to do anything, His faith led him, Again, he was fully assured.

if he was not fully assured. He may have started. But after some time, he would have stopped.

Mere belief can work for awhile (thats why it is nto a good indicator) but eventually, it will stop working and they will return to where they were.

because all humans move to what they truly trust in.. They may try a new thing, we always try new things, But if we do nto trust in that thing, we will walk away.

Thats why the apostle John said they were never of us, if they were of us, they never would have departed. But they departed to expose the truth that they were never of us.

They did nto lose salvation, they never had it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There are many ways we can demonstrate our faith today. For starters preach the true gospel (Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and don't preach a "different" gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)

If Noah would have refused to build the ark then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith in what God told him about flooding the earth and Noah and his family would have drown in the flood but of course that was not the case.

Be careful bro. He is trying to bait you. Doing those things does not prove faith. People do them all the time, who we eventually see never had faith.

 

[Guojing]

He did not have to do anything, His faith led him, Again, he was fully assured.

So your answer to my question

"If Noah believed God that there will be a flood, but refused to do the work God commanded him (Genesis 6:14) to build an ark, will he have been saved?"

is yes?

Otherwise you are contradicting yourself, either he has to build the ark, or he did not have to.

Whether his faith led him to do the work or not is not what I am asking you, so again, don't beg the question or engage in circular reasoning.

 

[Guojing]

Paul is c Lear. If abraham (or noah) was saved because of what they did (works0 they have something to boast about. As paul Al’s said, he who works imposed debt, but he who has faith is saved.

I have no doubt that Paul is clear, so you are preaching to the converted here regarding how the uncircumcised are justified through faith (Romans 3:30).

That was why he used Abraham at Genesis 15, and not Abraham after Genesis 17.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So your answer to my question

"If Noah believed God that there will be a flood, but refused to do the work God commanded him (Genesis 6:14) to build an ark, will he have been saved?"

is yes?

Otherwise you are contradicting yourself, either he has to build the ark, or he did not have to.

Whether his faith led him to do the work or not is not what I am asking you, so again, don't beg the question or engage in circular reasoning.

No

My answer is abraham did have faith, so he did the work

if he did not have faith, he would not have finished the work.

He was not condemned because he believed,

If he did nto believe, he was condemned already.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I have no doubt that Paul is clear, so you are preaching to the converted here regarding how the uncircumcised are justified through faith (Romans 3:30).

That was why he used Abraham at Genesis 15, and not Abraham after Genesis 17.

Yes, they are justified through faith.

Just like we are.

 

[Guojing]

if he did not have faith, he would not have finished the work.

So you are saying if Noah did not have faith (A), he would not have finish the work in building the ark (B),

AND

if Noah did not finish the work in building the ark (B), he would not have been saved (C).

Can we agree on that chain of reasoning, that A implies B implies C?

It still means A implies C so don't worry, I agree with you that it is the lack of faith that leads to him not being saved.

 

[Aaron112]

So if Noah did not finish the work in building the ark, he would not have been saved.

Can we agree on that?

no.

 

[Aaron112]

I was just wondering does a person need to be baptized in water in order to be saved ?

Yes.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So you are saying if Noah did not have faith (A), he would not have finish the work in building the ark (B),

AND

if Noah did not finish the work in building the ark (B), he would not have been saved (C).

Can we agree on that chain of reasoning, that A implies B implies C?

It still means A implies C so don't worry, I agree with you that it is the lack of faith that leads to him not being saved.

Your trying to twist what is actually going on in an attempt to maintain your gospel of works.

if Noah had faith he was saved (he who believes is not condemned John 3)

if Noah did not have faith, he would continue to be condemned (He who does not believe is condemned already)

Building the ark has no bearing on his eternal salvation. Now it died on his physical salvation. And saved mankind from being wiped off the face of the earth. He and his wife essentially became a new Adam and Eve, but it had no bearing on his eternal life.

Again, like abraham. He was saved because he trusted in God. Yet he sinned quite a bit also (did not do what he was supposed to do or showed lack of faith) but we know after decades of God proving to Abraham he is trustworthy. He had such great faith he offered his son.

But he was not saved because he offered his son, He was saved years before when he had faith and God accounted it to him as righteousness.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes.

I am confused.

Noah did not have to build the ark

but we need to be baptized in water.

Whats the difference? They are both in this context works of merit.

 

[Aaron112]

Simplify. Stick with only Scripture - depart away from or add to Scripture and end up with confusing unsaving curse from the Creator as He Says in Scripture. Don't add to , nor take away from.

Seek only the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is Rightousness, Peace, and Joy without confusion - Peace. Shalom Shalom in Jesus.

I am confused.

Noah did not have to build the ark

but we need to be baptized in water.

Whats the difference? They are both in this context works of merit.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I am confused.

Noah did not have to build the ark

but we need to be baptized in water.

Whats the difference? They are both in this context works of merit.

Baptism is not a work of merit. The baptized person does nothing, but has something done to them. It is the work of God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ARBITER01]

Your trying to twist what is actually going on in an attempt to maintain your gospel of works.

if Noah had faith he was saved (he who believes is not condemned John 3)

if Noah did not have faith, he would continue to be condemned (He who does not believe is condemned already)

Building the ark has no bearing on his eternal salvation. Now it died on his physical salvation. And saved mankind from being wiped off the face of the earth. He and his wife essentially became a new Adam and Eve, but it had no bearing on his eternal life.

Again, like abraham. He was saved because he trusted in God. Yet he sinned quite a bit also (did not do what he was supposed to do or showed lack of faith) but we know after decades of God proving to Abraham he is trustworthy. He had such great faith he offered his son.

But he was not saved because he offered his son, He was saved years before when he had faith and God accounted it to him as righteousness.

You're not going to get many straight answers from him.

He has an odd sort of messianic type of belief that pushes following the law of moses at all costs, as well as an unhealthy fixation on Israel in the scriptures, in other words, every section of scripture has something to do with israel instead of the gentiles. Every answer you give him only sparks more questions out of him.

It's a real bag of cats when you start down that road with him. Just sayin.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Baptism is not a work of merit. The baptized person does nothing, but has something done to them. It is the work of God.

-CryptoLutheran

If your getting baptized to get saved it’s a work of merit

If your getting baptized because your obedient to God. It’s a work of
righteousness

Not by works of righteousness which we have done but by his mercy he saved us (a completed action performed by God based on his mercy

 

[ViaCrucis]

If your getting baptized to get saved it’s a work of merit

One doesn't get baptized to get saved.

One is saved through God's gift and work of baptism to regenerate us.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ARBITER01]

If your getting baptized because your obedient to God. It’s a work of
righteousness

That's absolutely correct.

Jesus stated the contrast, we are either born of The Spirit or born of the flesh. Water immersion in scripture only follows our birth by The Holy Spirit, our born from above heavenly gift.

It's only a demonstration materially what has already happened to us Spiritually.