Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved ?

[ARBITER01]

Everywhere that faith is mentioned in Scripture (including those places where it is translated "belief" from the Greek "pistis") works are included. Because you cannot have faith apart from works. It is not faith plus works! It is just faith (the works are demanded by the concept of faith), for without action there is no faith to begin with.

This seems odd.

Chapter 11 of Hebrews,.... all the individuals that were mentioned there were identified with faith, not their actions/works.

It is faith that deems you righteous with GOD, nothing else. Works is something that demonstrates the faith we already have, that GOD is pleased with.

 

[Danthemailman]

Yes, you can separate works of the Law from works that bring salvation, because that is exactly what Scripture does. Giving a person what is needful to the body is indeed a "good work" that follows salvation. This is what Scripture tells us. But the actions that must precede the reception of salvation are not "good works". They have no merit other than what God has said they have, and that is that they lead to or result in receiving His blessing.

Good works "follow" salvation through faith (Ephesians 2:8-10) was my point and giving a person what is needed for the body is a good work (James 2:15-16) that cannot be dissected from the law. (Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:39) Repentance, faith and confession are not simply good works in a series of good works in a quest to be saved by good works. Water baptism is a good work/work of righteousness (Matthew 3:13-15) which "follows" salvation through believing in Him/faith. (Acts 10:43-47) See Titus 3:5. Not saved by works of righteousness.

Everywhere that faith is mentioned in Scripture (including those places where it is translated "belief" from the Greek "pistis") works are included.

That is absolutely false and results in salvation by faith AND works in contradiction to Scripture. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) First you say that good works follow salvation and now you say they are included in faith and precede salvation. One of the major errors of the church of Christ (and the Roman Catholic church) is they try to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) I've heard folks in the CoC say saved through faith "conjoined" with works (which results in works righteousness) and Roman Catholics say saved through faith "infused" with works (also results in works righteousness). This is a major stumbling block for both churches!

Because you cannot have faith apart from works. It is not faith plus works! It is just faith (the works are demanded by the concept of faith), for without action there is no faith to begin with.

Genuine faith results in producing works yet faith is faith and works are works. So, its faith + works no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in/have faith in Christ unto salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone for salvation. This belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful - Matthew 13:23) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief. Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I was also confused about this and basically defined faith "as" obedience/works just as all works-salvationists do.

The point he is making here is that Jesus' gift of His life for our salvation was given for us before time began. It could not possibly have been because of anything we did, because we had not even been created when He planned and set in motion the redemptive work that saves us. We were enemies of His when He gave His life for us to redeem us. So, there is nothing we can do to earn what He has already done or cause Him to do what He already planned on doing.

God is omniscient and omnipresent, so He is all knowing and outside of time. We certainly cannot earn salvation. Hence, not saved by works, not saved by works of righteousness which we have done, not saved according to our works. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption and not based on the merits of our works.

But to receive the benefit of what He has done, we must do what He has said leads to receiving that benefit.

We are saved when we repent (change our mind) and believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER. Hence, if you confess. That is not salvation by works.

Again, his faith included his actions, because if there were no actions there would have been no faith.

Faith includes trust and reliance in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Actions (good works) which "follow" salvation through faith are the fruit of salvation but not the root of it. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

Precisely, saved by grace through FAITH (faith being both intellectual assent AND the actions in response to that assent). If there is no action, then there is no faith. Think of faith as water. There must be hydrogen (belief) and oxygen (actions) to make water. If there is no oxygen, then there is no water.

False again. You need to put down your shoehorn and stop trying to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works.

This action is absolutely performed by the Holy Spirit. When does He do this? DURING WATER BAPTISM, just as 1 Pet 3:21, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7, Acts 22:16 and many other passages tell us.

None of those verses you cited above support your eisegesis which turn water baptism into a work for salvation. A symbol (water baptism) is not the reality (Spirit baptism) but is a picture of the reality. I already thoroughly covered this in post #357. Baptism is a symbol of salvation in that it pictures Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences. In reality, believers are literally saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death, burial and resurrection.

A man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this. Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents. "With this ring, I thee wed," although the ring is not the actual cause of the change in the marital status, just like water baptism is not the actual cause of our salvation status.

Spirit baptism (which is distinct from water baptism) precedes water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47)

Has faith, and faith without action is not really faith.

The action follows having been saved through faith in Christ. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Not "simply believe", but have faith.

Believe unto salvation (Acts 16:31) is having faith (Ephesians 2:8) and results in salvation.

Dan, get over this stupid meaningless argument. I have NEVER said that belief and confession of Jesus were not chronologically together. Of course they are. And they BOTH must come BEFORE salvation is received, because they both RESULT IN receiving salvation.

It's neither stupid nor meaningless. You turn confess and believe into two separate steps to salvation and which turns confession into a work for salvation. According to you, believes unto righteousness (still lost) confess (still lost) baptized (finally saved) in contradiction to (Romans 10:8-10).

No, you cannot. You want to cut these verses away from Scripture and make them independent from all the rest. But ALL of Scripture must be true at the same time. You cannot take the verses you list here and not include Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27, and the other passages that say that baptism also leads to or results in salvation being received.

I don't cut away anything. I properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. In regard to your pet verses on baptism, faith in Jesus Christ implied in repentance (and not water baptism) brings remission of sins. (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31: 26:18) Also, don't ignore, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." We are children of God through faith in Jesus Christ. Spirit baptized into the body of Christ. Water baptized in regard to identification with Christ just as the Israelites were baptized into Moses in regard to identification. Washing of water by the word and not by baptism. Your eisegesis ignores context and fails to properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine. You simply read your pet verses on baptism at face value while ignoring the context, build doctrine on them and ignore the multitude of verses which make it clear we are saved through belief/faith. That's called flawed hermeneutics.

No, Dan, I do not ignore Rom 10:8. I just don't include it because it does not say anything that changes what you have already agreed that Scripture says: that both belief and confession of Jesus both result in receiving salvation.

You remain in denial.

When someone is about to be baptized, I ask a very similar question to that which Philip asked the eunuch when they came to water: "Do you believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God?" If they respond affirmatively, then I consider that as a confession of Jesus. Sometimes they want to say it themselves. So I simply ask them, "Do you believe?" and they respond, "I believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God." It is not about them "shout[ing] out the words "Jesus is Lord"".

Make sure they believe the gospel and that their belief is not mere "mental assent" belief. 10 different people can say "I believe" and recite the words of the eunuch yet not necessarily truly believe unto salvation. Do the demons also believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God? Yes. Have the demons placed their faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for salvation? No.

No, it affirms that ALL of Scripture is equally true at the same time. Rom 10:8-10 does not mention repentance at all, yet you say it is assumed because the requirement for repentance is so clear in passages like Acts 3:19. This is true not only of repentance, but also baptism, because the requirement of baptism leading to or resulting in receiving salvation is equally as clear in passages like Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Eph 5:26-27, Gal 3:26-27, 1 Pet 3:21, etc.

ALL of Scripture is true but your eisegesis is false. It's true of repentance, which precedes believe/confess, but not baptism which "follows" believing unto righteousness/confessing unto salvation/salvation through faith. (Acts 10:10; 43-47)

Belief that there is one God is not the belief that is required to be saved.

Exactly and that is the belief of demons. Saving belief believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 16:31)

Precisely. They have faith (belief in action) that there is one God, but they do not have faith (belief in action) in Jesus. There is no trust or reliance if there is no action.

There is no trust or reliance if they are not trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation. That is the deeper belief/faith that you cannot seem to grasp and there is a reason for that. Actions which follow are the evidence of faith but not the essence of faith. You cannot grasp that either. Same reason.

Not according to Scripture. Faith is established IN action. Other actions flow out from having been saved (fruit of the Spirit), but the actions that lead to/result in salvation being received are not fruits of the Spirit, they are the seeds of faith.

Faith is established the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. You seem determined to "add" your actions/works to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Christ save you but that is not how receiving a free gift by grace through faith works.

Abraham was not saved based on the merits of his works.

Amen! (Romans 4:2-3)

He was saved because he exhibited faith/trust/belief in God's promises. Sacrificing Isaac on the alter was not in any way a "good work".

Good grief! You are so mixed up! Abraham was saved when he believed in the Lord in Genesis 15:6 (compare with Romans 4:2-3) and God accounted his faith for righteousness many years before performing the good work in Genesis 22 of offering up Isaac on the altar in obedience to God. According to your erroneous teaching, Abraham remained a lost man for many years after his faith was accounted to him for righteousness and he was not saved until Genesis 22 when he offered up Isaac on the altar. Talk about confused!

And what does Jame say in verse 24? We are accounted as righteous by our works, not by faith alone. If there are not actions/works then the faith you claim to have is not real or effective in bringing us salvation.

That is NOT what James 2:24 says in contradiction to Romans 4:2-3. We are shown to be righteous by works and not by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." (James 2:14) James 2:14-26 remains a major stumbling block for you. Be sure to go back and read post #358.

Here is the very heart of your error below which sets in motion a series of misinterpetations of Scripture and culminates in salvation by works. You said:

Everywhere that faith is mentioned in Scripture (including those places where it is translated "belief" from the Greek "pistis") works are included.
And what does Jame say in verse 24? We are accounted as righteous by our works, not by faith alone.

This is a critical error which results in works-righteousness! Prior to my conversion several years ago, I believed this same critical error that you are teaching now and it's the only thing that the natural man can understand. I previously basically defined faith "as" works as a confused Roman Catholic who trusted in works for salvation. When I came to the Lord several years ago, sincerely seeking Him in humility, I had no assurance of salvation and knew I was missing something. The Lord drew me and revealed the truth to me from Scripture. After reading through the book of Romans then eventually coming to Ephesians 2:8,9 the light finally came on. I finally came to understand what it means to be saved by grace through faith and not by works. I came to understand the distinction between faith and works and no longer infused them together to create salvation by faith and works. Works salvation is no salvation at all. That was my turning point. I just hope and pray that you also find your turning point and accept the truth. Our salvation depends on placing our faith in the right object. JESUS CHRIST ALONE. Praise the Lord!

 

[Doug Brents]

This seems odd.

Chapter 11 of Hebrews,.... all the individuals that were mentioned there were identified with faith, not their actions/works.

It is faith that deems you righteous with GOD, nothing else. Works is something that demonstrates the faith we already have, that GOD is pleased with.

Read Hebrews 11 again. Every single person listed did something by faith. Their faith was made complete/perfect through what they did. If they had done nothing, their "faith" would not have existed, it would have been fake, false, dead, meaningless. Faith is nothing without action. Your actions will always align with what you really believe. So if your actions are in surrender to God, then your heart is surrendered to God as well. But if you defy His commands, then your heart is in defiance to Him as well.

 

[Doug Brents]

Good works "follow" salvation through faith (Ephesians 2:8-10) was my point and giving a person what is needed for the body is a good work (James 2:15-16) that cannot be dissected from the law. (Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:39) Repentance, faith and confession are not simply good works in a series of good works in a quest to be saved by good works. Water baptism is a good work/work of righteousness (Matthew 3:13-15) which "follows" salvation through believing in Him/faith. (Acts 10:43-47) See Titus 3:5. Not saved by works of righteousness.

Your statements would be true if that was all that Scripture had to say about salvation. But that is not all Scripture says. Your understanding of Eph 2:8-10 must be tempered with the knowledge that there are, in fact, physical actions that man must perform that lead to receiving salvation. That fact makes your interpretation incorrect. Repentance, confession, and baptism are not "good works" or "works of righteousness" that follow after salvation, because Scripture says they lead to/result in salvation being received.

That is absolutely false and results in salvation by faith AND works in contradiction to Scripture. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) First you say that good works follow salvation and now you say they are included in faith and precede salvation.

Again, you are trying to lump together the actions that flow out of having received salvation with all actions of any kind. There are a few (three, in fact) actions that Scripture says lead to or result in receiving salvation. I am sorry that you cannot see that distinction, but it is there in Scripture. I would prefer that salvation could be received your way. But we have to teach what Scripture teaches, and not make up our your own idea about what God demands.

One of the major errors of the church of Christ (and the Roman Catholic church) is they try to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) I've heard folks in the CoC say saved through faith "conjoined" with works (which results in works righteousness) and Roman Catholics say saved through faith "infused" with works (also results in works righteousness). This is a major stumbling block for both churches!

The stumbling block is in your misinterpretation of what faith is. Faith is not real unless it is joined with action/works. You want to have water, but you don't want it to be wet. If all you have is hydrogen (faith) but you have no oxygen (actions) bonded to it, then you only have a gas and not liquid water.

Genuine faith results in producing works yet faith is faith and works are works. So, its faith + works no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works.

James says that it does. Faith is incomplete without works being an integral part of it. No works, no faith.

If you believe in/have faith in Christ unto salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone for salvation.

Can you trust Christ without putting the full weight of your soul in His hands? If you don't put your full weight on a rope, you don't really trust/have faith in the rope. If you won't put your full weight on a chair, you don't really trust/have faith in the chair. If you won't fully surrender to God's will by doing what He says do, then you don't really trust/have faith in Christ. Having faith in Christ UNTO SALVATION, means doing what He says.

This belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful - Matthew 13:23) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief. Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I was also confused about this and basically defined faith "as" obedience/works just as all works-salvationists do.

Faith is not just works, but it must have works inherent to it or it is not really faith. This does not result in "works salvation", because there is no such thing. There is no salvation without faith, and there is no faith without action. That does not mean that salvation is based upon those actions, any more than the walls of Jericho fell down based on the marching of the Israelites. The walls fell because God knocked them down, and He did so because the nation was obedient to His command.

God is omniscient and omnipresent, so He is all knowing and outside of time. We certainly cannot earn salvation. Hence, not saved by works, not saved by works of righteousness which we have done, not saved according to our works. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption and not based on the merits of our works.

Absolutely true. And yet, He still requires that we do certain works in order to receive His blessing. He did not send Jesus because we are baptized. He did not send Jesus because we would repent. He sent Jesus because that is the kind of God He is. God is LOVE, and because He is love He wants to save us, so He sent Jesus to redeem us. So redemption is out there waiting, freely given and readily available to anyone who wants it. But it is only received by those who do what God said will result in them receiving it. Look at the parable in which the wedding guest is thrown out because he wasn't wearing wedding cloths. He didn't come prepared and so was thrown out.

We are saved when we repent (change our mind) and believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER. Hence, if you confess. That is not salvation by works.

Again, your words are correct, but the meaning you put behind them is wrong. The word of faith is the Gospel that was being preached. The readers of Romans were saved, so they had the Gospel in their hearts and mouths together. But the people to whom they were preaching did not have the word of faith in their hearts and mouths. They still had to hear the Gospel, believe it, and act upon it to receive salvation.

None of those verses you cited above support your eisegesis which turn water baptism into a work for salvation. A symbol (water baptism) is not the reality (Spirit baptism) but is a picture of the reality.

There is no such thing as "Spirit baptism" today. We are indwelt by the Spirit when we are saved, but this is not "Spirit baptism". Spirit baptism occurred exactly twice in all of Human history. Once on Pentecost with the Jews, and once in Cornelius' house with the Gentiles. This has never happened again. It is not the sign of salvation, nor is it a requirement of salvation. It has nothing to do with salvation at all.

I already thoroughly covered this in post #357. Baptism is a symbol of salvation in that it pictures Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences. In reality, believers are literally saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death, burial and resurrection.

So you say, but what does Scripture say? It says that we are saved by baptism (1 Pet 3:21). It says that we are saved when our sins are washed away/cut from us/removed/forgiven in baptism (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27). If baptism does not happen, then salvation is not received.

A man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this.

Nope. The water of baptism is the wedding ceremony. It is the point at which the Holy Spirit removes our sin and unites us to Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. It is not the ring. It is not something we wear, or that we can show (like circumcision) to demonstrate our salvation. We don't wear the wedding ceremony around our finger, but we aren't married unless we go through the ceremony.

Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents. "With this ring, I thee wed," although the ring is not the actual cause of the change in the marital status, just like water baptism is not the actual cause of our salvation status.

But the wedding ceremony IS the actual cause of the marital status change, just as baptism is the actual cause of the salvation status change.

Spirit baptism (which is distinct from water baptism) precedes water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47)

Nope. The Spirit falling on the Gentiles had nothing whatsoever to do with their salvation.

It's neither stupid nor meaningless. You turn confess and believe into two separate steps to salvation and which turns confession into a work for salvation. According to you, believes unto righteousness (still lost) confess (still lost) baptized (finally saved) in contradiction to (Romans 10:8-10).

No, I do not turn them into two different steps. They both happen at the same time. One believes (has intellectual assent ) in the Gospel. He should then immediately repent of his sins (begin the process of not continuing in sins, this is a life long effort), confess Jesus as Lord, and be baptized into Christ. All of this should happen within minutes, an hour or so at the most, just as it did with the Jailer in Philippi.

I don't cut away anything. I properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. In regard to your pet verses on baptism, faith in Jesus Christ implied in repentance (and not water baptism) brings remission of sins. (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31: 26:18)

No, repentance is just part of what brings salvation. Just turning around does not wash you clean. If you walk into a swamp, turn around, and walk back the other way, your feet are still covered in mud from the swamp. Just turning around didn't clean the mud from your feet. It is the same with sin.

Also, don't ignore, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Not ignoring it at all. It means that water baptism is not about cleansing the flesh from fleshly dirt. But it is the point at which the Holy Spirit removes our sin and gives us a clean conscience.

Dan, you are sooooo steeped in your false doctrine that you cannot see the truth. (I know, you think the same of me) It is impossible to have a conversation on truth when the other person (you @Danthemailman) refuse to see the truth. You reinterpret Scripture to fit your preconception, and refuse sound interpretation. I pray that your heart would be opened to the truth.

 

[ARBITER01]

Read Hebrews 11 again. Every single person listed did something by faith. Their faith was made complete/perfect through what they did. If they had done nothing, their "faith" would not have existed, it would have been fake, false, dead, meaningless. Faith is nothing without action. Your actions will always align with what you really believe. So if your actions are in surrender to God, then your heart is surrendered to God as well. But if you defy His commands, then your heart is in defiance to Him as well.

I disagree.

Chapter 11 is the faith chapter, not the works chapter. It is their faith that is praised by GOD, not any works of theirs that followed.

Faith always comes first.

 

[Guojing]

Read Hebrews 11 again. Every single person listed did something by faith. Their faith was made complete/perfect through what they did. If they had done nothing, their "faith" would not have existed, it would have been fake, false, dead, meaningless. Faith is nothing without action. Your actions will always align with what you really believe. So if your actions are in surrender to God, then your heart is surrendered to God as well. But if you defy His commands, then your heart is in defiance to Him as well.

The way to reconcile both your views is the following statement by Paul in Romans 3:30

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Hebrews 11, written to the circumcised, is about justification by faith, which requires a corresponding work.

As James would further explain to the 12 tribes of Israel, their justification, is based on faith and works (James 2:24)

But we, the uncircumcised are justified through faith of Christ (Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16), which does not require works (Romans 4:5).

 

[Danthemailman]

Your statements would be true if that was all that Scripture had to say about salvation. But that is not all Scripture says. Your understanding of Eph 2:8-10 must be tempered with the knowledge that there are, in fact, physical actions that man must perform that lead to receiving salvation. That fact makes your interpretation incorrect.

These extra long-winded posts of wash, rinse, repeat, disagree are becoming a waste of time, so I will mainly focus on the very heart of your error. Scripture is crystal clear about salvation. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, (and physical actions/works? NO. Simply faith) and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. We are saved for good works and not by good works.

I am sorry that you cannot see that distinction, but it is there in Scripture. I would prefer that salvation could be received your way. But we have to teach what Scripture teaches, and not make up our your own idea about what God demands.

It's your eisegesis that says, "water baptized or condemned" and not Scripture. I will stick with what Scripture says. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. I am sorry that you refuse to believe. I'm very familiar with what God demands. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; 20:31; Acts 10:43-47; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:1 John 5:13 etc..).

The stumbling block is in your misinterpretation of what faith is. Faith is not real unless it is joined with action/works.

More irony and falsehood.

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (KJV)
Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the certainty/assurance of things hoped for, the proof/conviction of things not seen. (NASB)
Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance (title deed, confirmation) of things hoped for (divinely guaranteed), and the evidence of things not seen [the conviction of their reality—faith comprehends as fact what cannot be experienced by the physical senses]. (AMP)

Faith is not water baptism.
Faith is not multiple acts of obedience which follow having been saved through faith.
Faith is not works.

Faith is real the moment we are made alive together with Christ and saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:5-9) The actions/works which follow (Ephesians 2:10) simply demonstrate that faith is alive. (James 2:14-26) Works do not cause faith to be alive. You have it backwards. James is discussing the evidence of faith.

James says that it does. Faith is incomplete without works being an integral part of it. No works, no faith.

I already thoroughly explained this to you in post #509 but you stubbornly refuse to accept the truth.

Can you trust Christ without putting the full weight of your soul in His hands? If you don't put your full weight on a rope, you don't really trust/have faith in the rope. If you won't put your full weight on a chair, you don't really trust/have faith in the chair. If you won't fully surrender to God's will by doing what He says do, then you don't really trust/have faith in Christ. Having faith in Christ UNTO SALVATION, means doing what He says.

Putting the full weight of your soul in His hands means that we are trusting 100% in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Since you turn to supplements for salvation, you demonstrate that you don't fully trust in Him to save you.

Faith is not just works, but it must have works inherent to it or it is not really faith. This does not result in "works salvation", because there is no such thing. There is no salvation without faith, and there is no faith without action. That does not mean that salvation is based upon those actions, any more than the walls of Jericho fell down based on the marching of the Israelites. The walls fell because God knocked them down, and He did so because the nation was obedient to His command.

More sugar-coated double talk.

There is no such thing as "Spirit baptism" today. We are indwelt by the Spirit when we are saved, but this is not "Spirit baptism". Spirit baptism occurred exactly twice in all of Human history. Once on Pentecost with the Jews, and once in Cornelius' house with the Gentiles. This has never happened again. It is not the sign of salvation, nor is it a requirement of salvation. It has nothing to do with salvation at all.

Absolutely false and another critical error. Don't confuse being baptized with the Holy Spirit/baptized by one Spirit into one body with simply receiving the spiritual gift of tongues. You are forced to believe your false teaching here in order to "get around" Acts 10:43-47.

Matthew 3:11 - I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. *Crystal clear.

So, you say, but what does Scripture say? It says that we are saved by baptism (1 Pet 3:21). It says that we are saved when our sins are washed away/cut from us/removed/forgiven in baptism (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27). If baptism does not happen, then salvation is not received.

Only according to your eisegesis. I already refuted your eisegesis in post #509 and elsewhere on multiple occasions. Your "water baptized or condemned" gospel is a "different" gospel. It's the lack of belief that causes condemnation and not the lack of baptism. (Mark 16:16(b): John 3:18) Paul explains why people do not believe the gospel. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

Nope. The water of baptism is the wedding ceremony. It is the point at which the Holy Spirit removes our sin and unites us to Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. It is not the ring. It is not something we wear, or that we can show (like circumcision) to demonstrate our salvation. We don't wear the wedding ceremony around our finger, but we aren't married unless we go through the ceremony.

False. 1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But the wedding ceremony IS the actual cause of the marital status change, just as baptism is the actual cause of the salvation status change.

Again, a man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this. Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents. "With this ring, I thee wed," although the ring is not the actual cause of the change in the marital status, just like water baptism is not the actual cause of our salvation status. This is not hard to understand. It's just hard for you to ACCEPT.

Nope. The Spirit falling on the Gentiles had nothing whatsoever to do with their salvation.

Absolutely false. It had everything to do with their salvation. Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins.” 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. (See 1 Corinthians 12. The spiritual gift of tongues is ONLY for the body of Christ) Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” It would take blatant dishonesty to reject this crystal-clear truth.

No, I do not turn them into two different steps. They both happen at the same time. One believes (has intellectual assent ) in the Gospel. He should then immediately repent of his sins (begin the process of not continuing in sins, this is a life long effort), confess Jesus as Lord, and be baptized into Christ. All of this should happen within minutes, an hour or so at the most, just as it did with the Jailer in Philippi.

There it is! You reduce "believes" down to intellectual assent in the Gospel! Busted! Intellectual assent in the Gospel merely acknowledges that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened." Even the demons believe that. The deeper faith that saves also trusts in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) *Your formula for salvation is missing this vital element.

Then you place repentance "after" belief/faith and redefine it as moral self-reformation. You turn confession into a work for salvation as you do with water baptism. What a mess! This remains the very heart of your error. Mere mental assent belief followed by moral self-reformation followed by lip service confession followed by water baptism is not unto salvation.

Not ignoring it at all. It means that water baptism is not about cleansing the flesh from fleshly dirt. But it is the point at which the Holy Spirit removes our sin and gives us a clean conscience.

You isolate the beginning of the verse, build doctrine on that, then twist the rest of the verse to make it fit your eisegesis. Typical.

Dan, you are sooooo steeped in your false doctrine that you cannot see the truth. (I know, you think the same of me) It is impossible to have a conversation on truth when the other person (you @Danthemailman) refuse to see the truth. You reinterpret Scripture to fit your preconception, and refuse sound interpretation. I pray that your heart would be opened to the truth.

Your statement above is the absolute epitome of IRONY. Church indoctrination can be very difficult to overcome. My heart was opened to the truth when I received Jesus Christ through faith several years ago. Praise God! I already shared my turning point with you in post #509. I just hope and pray that you also find your turning point and accept the truth. Only the Lord can open your eyes to the truth. All I can do is plant seeds.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It is your misunderstanding of what it means to "believe" that has you barking up the wrong tree.

He believes in God

You believe in some ceremony and some sinner immersing you in water.

huge difference their my friend

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This seems odd.

Chapter 11 of Hebrews,.... all the individuals that were mentioned there were identified with faith, not their actions/works.

It is faith that deems you righteous with GOD, nothing else. Works is something that demonstrates the faith we already have, that GOD is pleased with.

Amen,

Abraham, our father, is our guide.

Romans 4:
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

The Promise Granted Through Faith​

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.


16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be [d]sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”


23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

yeah, No baptism required (water)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The way to reconcile both your views is the following statement by Paul in Romans 3:30

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Hebrews 11, written to the circumcised, is about justification by faith, which requires a corresponding work.

As James would further explain to the 12 tribes of Israel, their justification, is based on faith and works (James 2:24)

But we, the uncircumcised are justified through faith of Christ (Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16), which does not require works (Romans 4:5).

No one at any time in the history of mankind has been saved through one work they did or lost because of one work they failed to do.

 

[Danthemailman]

I disagree.

Chapter 11 is the faith chapter, not the works chapter. It is their faith that is praised by GOD, not any works of theirs that followed.

Faith always comes first.

In Hebrews chapter 11, it was by or "out of" faith that these people performed works but those works were the evidence of their faith and not the very essence of their faith. Those who teach salvation by works get that confused.

It was by or "out of" faith that Abel offered a sacrifice. Abel's faith was evidenced by obedience to God's requirement for sacrifice by which he obtained witness that he was righteous. (Hebrews 11:4) Cain, who was of the evil one, demonstrated an evil heart by evil deeds, while Abel demonstrated a righteous heart by his righteous deeds. (1 John 3:12) and that Abel offered his sacrifice by or "out of" faith and Cain did not.

It was by or "out of" faith that Noah built the ark, but Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith and not the origin of it. Building the ark demonstrated that Noah believed God about flooding the earth and the ark saved Noah and his family (physically) from drowning. (Hebrews 11:17)

 

[Guojing]

No one at any time in the history of mankind has been saved through one work they did or lost because of one work they failed to do.

Take Hebrews 11:7 example of Noah, you just need to ask yourself this question

"If Noah believed God that there will be a flood, but refused to do the work God commanded him (Genesis 6:14) to build an ark, will he have been saved?"

and you will realize the silliness of the statement you made above.

 

[Guojing]

His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith and not the origin of it. Building the ark demonstrated that Noah believed God about flooding the earth and the ark saved Noah and his family (physically) from drowning. (Hebrews 11:17)

That is not exactly the same as what Paul explained to us gentiles now in Romans 4:5.

We have no need to demonstrate our faith in any work TODAY to be saved, would you agree?

 

[Danthemailman]

That is not exactly the same as what Paul explained to us gentiles now in Romans 4:5.

We have no need to demonstrate our faith in any work TODAY to be saved, would you agree?

We (believers) do not demonstrate our faith by works in order to be saved but because we are saved.

 

[Aaron112]

Faith without works is
like a dead body laying on the ground, not breathing.

 

[Guojing]

We (believers) do not demonstrate our faith by works in order to be saved but because we are saved.

And Noah had to?

 

[Danthemailman]

And Noah had to?

Building the ark was a demonstration of Noah's faith and not the origin of it. Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark.

 

[Guojing]

Building the ark was a demonstration of Noah's faith and not the origin of it.

I am not asking you about the origin of Noah's faith.

So back again to my first question,

What work do we need to do today to likewise demonstrate our faith?

Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark.

That may of course be correct, but the question remains.

If he chose not to build an ark, after hearing God's command to him in Genesis 6:14, would he still have been saved?

Please don't attempt to beg the question/circular reasoning by answering "His work demonstrated his faith and not the origin of it", which is NOT what I am asking.

 

[Danthemailman]

I am not asking you about the origin of Noah's faith.

So back again to my first question,

What work do we need to do today to likewise demonstrate our faith?

That may of course be correct, but the question remains.

If he chose not to build an ark, after hearing God's command to him in Genesis 6:14, would he still have been saved?

Please don't attempt to beg the question/circular reasoning by answering "His work demonstrated his faith and not the origin of it", which is NOT what I am asasking.

There are many ways we can demonstrate our faith today. For starters preach the true gospel (Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and don't preach a "different" gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)

If Noah would have refused to build the ark then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith in what God told him about flooding the earth and Noah and his family would have drown in the flood but of course that was not the case.

 

[Guojing]

There are many ways we can demonstrate our faith today. For starters preach the true gospel (Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and don't preach a "different" gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)

But now,

1. if we don't preach the gospel to anyone after we believe, or
2. somehow we preach a different gospel,

certainly we will receive no rewards, but we will still be saved (1 Cor 3:10-15)

That is the difference between the but now, and time past, which Noah lived in.

If Noah would have refused to build the ark then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith in what God told him about flooding the earth and Noah and his family would have drown in the flood but of course that was not the case.

Yes, that was my point in Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved ?

"Hebrews 11, written to the circumcised, is about justification by faith, which requires a corresponding work."

Noah had to demonstrate his faith by doing the corresponding work. Otherwise, he won't be saved.

That is what justification by faith means.