Do we need the law to stay righteous?

[BobRyan]

Please point out in my post where I said our identity is tied to our works?...
JLB

Well as you rightly note "it is not there" -- but would you settle for us 'imagining it' to be there?

 

[BobRyan]

I am puzzled. What is it about God's righteousness that have you guys debating about law and grace. What is it that you do not understand? The Bible tells us that.
John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Psalm 119:172
Let my tongue sing of Your word, For all Your commandments are righteousness.

In the New Testament "Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4
In the New Testament "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19
In the New Testament "this IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3
In the New Testament the 5th commandment "is the FIRST commandment WITH a promise" in that still-valid unit of "TEN" for the saints. Eph 6:2

So this shows there is a clear difference between the two. And they cannot mix. A person is living under one or the other. Pick one! But know, as Apostle Paul warned the Galatians,calling them foolish because they were trying to mix law and grace.

"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

Because under the New Covenant "the LAW is written on the mind and heart" Hebrews 8:6-12

 

[BobRyan]

Ah, but you quoted Rom 3:20 without acknowledging verse 19. Using scripture to make a point that is not Biblical, taking scripture out of context is very suspicious.. I am not telling you that you did it on purpose, but many are guilty of doing just that.

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Which means the LAW of God STILL exists and is STILL condemning the entire world as lost sinners - just as Rom 3:19-21 tells us "For all have sinned" Rom 3:23

Same moral law of God condemning all mankind as sinners.

So then it was "sin" to take God's name in vain in Genesis - and is still "sin" to do that today - even for a Christian.

And we all know it.

 

[BobRyan]

The 4th commandment of the ten is purely ceremonial.

wishful thinking

 

[1stcenturylady]

Which means the LAW of God STILL exists and is STILL condemning the entire world as lost sinners - just as Rom 3:19-21 tells us "For all have sinned" Rom 3:23

Same moral law of God condemning all mankind as sinners.

So then it was "sin" to take God's name in vain in Genesis - and is still "sin" to do that today - even for a Christian.

And we all know it.

But if you confess your sins and are cleansed of all sin, are you still a sinner?

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Psalm 119:172
Let my tongue sing of Your word, For all Your commandments are righteousness.

In the New Testament "Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4
In the New Testament "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19
In the New Testament "this IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3
In the New Testament the 5th commandment "is the FIRST commandment WITH a promise" in that still-valid unit of "TEN" for the saints. Eph 6:2




"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

Because under the New Covenant "the LAW is written on the mind and heart" Hebrews 8:6-12

My point is you cannot have it both ways. So you choose law. OK! But just know you cannot have law and grace. By choosing law, you fall from grace.

Gal. 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

 

[Doug Melven]

Please point out in my post where I said our identity is tied to our works?

This is where you tie identity to works. We are righteous, not because of works, but because Jesus Gave us everlasting righteousness.
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

• Never the less, we have to actually practice righteousness, in order to be righteous.

Righteousness is a constant battle. We can achieve it by accepting Christ as our Savior

This is true. When we accept Christ as our Savior, He makes us righteous.

We can also lose it by willfully indulging in sin.

No, we can't, because this righteousness did not come from us.

We can also reattain it by confessing our sins to God and repentance.

If we became unrighteous, we could not get it back. Hebrews 6:4-6 says it is impossible.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
This is a one-time thing, not something we do over and over.
In 1 John 2 we are advised not to sin, but if we do we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous.
It does not say if we sin, refer back to 1 John 1:9.

 

[JLB777]

This is where you tie identity to works. We are righteous, not because of works, but because Jesus Gave us everlasting righteousness.
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

NO mention of identity here in this scripture Melvin.


The principle of righteousness is plain and clear.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

• he that doeth righteousness is righteous

Jesus is our example we are to follow. Jesus walked in righteousness.


My identity comes from being in Christ, through obeying the Gospel.



JLB

 

[Doug Melven]

Your identity is based on who you are, not what you do.
We are children of God, because He regenerated us, made us New Creations, saved us by grace through faith.
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Works do not save us, or lack thereof cost us salvation.
Lack of works will cost us rewards.
We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works.
Notice the order.
Saved to do good works.
Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

 

[Bob S]

I am puzzled. What is it about God's righteousness that have you guys debating about law and grace. What is it that you do not understand? The Bible tells us that.
John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

So this shows there is a clear difference between the two. And they cannot mix. A person is living under one or the other. Pick one! But know, as Apostle Paul warned the Galatians,calling them foolish because they were trying to mix law and grace.

Paul didn't tell us they were mixing, he wrote that they turned from faith. 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?

 

[Bob S]

Not really. If you have no righteousness of observing the law you cannot be under the law. I would have thought all would know that, so needless to quote it

Have it your way. The fact is that you wrote something that is only the truth if under the law or maybe if people have a through knowledge thereof.

 

[Bob S]

Which means the LAW of God STILL exists and is STILL condemning the entire world as lost sinners - just as Rom 3:19-21 tells us "For all have sinned" Rom 3:23

All have sinned, but all have not sinned according to the laws of the Sinai covenant. The laws of the Sinai covenant were for only Israel. Therefore I am and never have been sinning against the ritual weekly Sabbath. And yes Bob the Sabbath is definitely ritual. Until you can prove it was not it stands a such.

It is a sin to take God's name in vain because it is part of the Law of Love. It is a sin to take anyone's name in vain. We don't need the ministry of death to tell us what is sin. We have the Holy Spirit convicting us of wrongful doing.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Paul didn't tell us they were mixing, he wrote that they turned from faith. 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?

You are right Paul did not write it, but that is what they were doing.

 

[Marco70]

Have it your way. The fact is that you wrote something that is only the truth if under the law or maybe if people have a through knowledge thereof.

So in your view, if a person is not declared righteous by observing the law(rom3:20) this means they are under the law.
When Paul relentlessly states you are not under law, he means you are not under a righteousness of observing the law:
Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth Rom 10:4

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

So in your view, if a person is not declared righteous by observing the law(rom3:20) this means they are under the law.
When Paul relentlessly states you are not under law, he means you are not under a righteousness of observing the law:
Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth Rom 10:4

Right! It is the righteousness of God imputed to believers by grace through faith.
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

[Marco70]

Right! It is the righteousness of God imputed to believers by grace through faith.

Absolutely.
You often get two extremes. On the one side people, in reality want you to live under the law. On the other, they say the law itself got abolished. If the law was abolished you wouldn't need the righteousness of Christ would you?
The law was transferred from an external law, written on tablets of stone, to an internal law written on tablets of human hearts(2cor3:3) Simply put, the born again believer in their heart wants to live as God desires them to live, for that is where the law has been placed. Because, and only because that has happened, you have a saviour from your sin. Your sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more, hence you are not under the law for righteousness before God:

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.’

17 Then he adds:

‘Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.
Heb 10:16&17

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Absolutely.
You often get two extremes. On the one side people, in reality want you to live under the law. On the other, they say the law itself got abolished. If the law was abolished you wouldn't need the righteousness of Christ would you?
The law was transferred from an external law, written on tablets of stone, to an internal law written on tablets of human hearts(2cor3:3) Simply put, the born again believer in their heart wants to live as God desires them to live, for that is where the law has been placed. Because, and only because that has happened, you have a saviour from your sin. Your sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more, hence you are not under the law for righteousness before God:

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.’

17 Then he adds:

‘Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.
Heb 10:16&17

This is so hard for some to accept. But, imho they just do not understand the bondage of the law and the freedom of grace.

 

[Marco70]

This is so hard for some to accept. But, imho they just do not understand the bondage of the law and the freedom of grace.

Absolutely. And Everything they are trying to achieve by obeying the law, comes by not living under it:

For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace
Rom6:14

 

[HARK!]

Do we need the law to stay righteous?

What is righteousness?

Definition of righteous

1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
Definition of RIGHTEOUS


1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

 

[ralliann]

There's much scripture that attests to this, but I agree. We are not saved by the works of the law, but by faith alone. However, that faith, will be sealed, and perfected by having us do good works. We still need to cleanse our feet, by walking in righteousness. That righteousness is the law of God. Will that make us righteous? No, but we are told to stop sinning, and to avoid sin, what is sin?

Biblically, it's the transgression of the law. So, if we are told to avoid sin, that would mean we are to avoid breaking the law. By having faith that we're saved, and changing our ways to be obedient to God and His law, as opposed to indoctrinated tradition of man, we walk out that faith. Thereby making our faith something that we aren't only professing with our lips, but our hearts as well. Because, faith without works is dead, and the doer of the law is justified, not the hearer only.

Jesus Himself said "depart from me ye who work lawlessness".

He actually said workers of "anomia" the greek word for lawlessness, which was translated as iniquity. Lawlessness is very direct and specific, iniquity, is very broad. Lawlessness closes it for interpretation, iniquity means immoral, but then, since immoral is so broad, it opens it up for interpretation, hereby giving way to the 40,000+ denominations we have today.

If you look back at the history of the believers, the apostles kept the law, and the earliest "primitive church" also kept the law. Not to be saved, which is important to remember, but because they were already saved, and that salvation, as Ezekiel 36:26-27 shows, will result in us desiring to keep God's law out of love, reverence and devotion to Him. Not to be saved, which is something that I feel confuses a lot of people today.

It's also, one of the main reasons I feel jews reject Jesus. Because, if the church today is accurate,

You are not making too much sense here. You acknowledge the apostles kept the law, but then say Jews don't believe because the church does not keep the law. You also mention traditions of Men, yet Jews keep traditions of men not the law of Moses. And really nobody today even can keep the law of Moses.Hasnt been possible since 70 ad.

and we aren't supposed to keep the law, and Jesus preached doing away with the law, according to the same law Jesus would've been found sinless in, it'd be impossible.

As far as I can see is with out faith it is impossible to please God. The law of faith is what Paul ,preached.

Because according to Deuteronomy 13, if Jesus did away with the law, He'd be sinning, and therefore couldn't be the Messiah, but we know that He didn't sin, and therefore couldn't of done away with the law.

He fulfilled the law and brought people into a new covenant. Gentiles were never under the Sinai covenant.

I feel that if we were to get back to our "primitive roots" of keeping torah because of our already given salvation, the jews would see that Jesus is truly the Messiah, because He's just been wrongly represented for the past 1700 years.

Then why didn't they? As you say the Apostles and Jesus kept Moses law and fulfilled it. So why did they continue to preach traditions of men over Christ?

After all, it does say that in the end of time we will be judging the world, and that in the reign of Jesus's 1000 year reign, we'll be again living according to God's law. To what standard will we judge the world, if God's law is done away with? To each individual standard of each individual person judging? No, that'd be too unfair. I believe we're under a huge deception, and have been for 1700+ years. God predicted this in the prophets, that we'd forget His law, His name, and His ways, only in the last of days to come back and remember His law, to do it, and to call on Him by His real true name - יהוה or Yahuah, Yahweh, YHWH there's different ways to pronounce it, but it's not God nor Lord. God is a title, and Lord is something much worse that He's actually commanded us not to call Him. His true name is יהוה.

They will be judged by the law of faith, just as they always have been. Just as all are imo.
Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

James speaks of it in this manner
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.