Do we need prayer??

[crispyfry]

I also am aware of of people who have been cured of an incurable illness through prayer.

Yeah, there were reports like that.

But I never have heard that through prayer you will be able to cure an amputee. (Without anything - just magic)

 

[LOCO]

Yeah, there were reports like that.

But I never have heard that through prayer you will be able to cure an amputee. (Without anything - just magic)

The miracles that I am thinking of have been verified by secular doctors and scientists.

I don't know of one where an amputee has been cured but I know of a couple of Saints including Peter who raised the dead. When I say they raised the dead, I mean they were considered dead for 3days prior to being resurrected via a miracle.

And another man in 1940s who lost his eye out of his socket and Doctors advised his eyesight could not be restored. While bandaged in hospital Padre Pio visited him.

The eye reappears

More astounding still may be the thoroughly-documented cure of a construction worker named Giovanni Savino, who was severely injured on February 15, 1949, in a dynamite mishap. When Dr. Guglielmo San- guinetti, a physican, and Padre Raffaele, another Capuchin, and Father Dominic Meyer rushed to the injured man's side, “all three men noted that among Savino's numerous injuries, his right eye was gone entirely. They agreed that 'the socket was empty',” reports biographer Bernard Ruffin. Other doctors confirmed that the eye was completely annihilated and the other one badly damaged.

It looked like Savino was also going to be totally blind. For three days, the worker lay on a hospital bed with his head and face bandaged. When a surgeon entered the room three days later, Savino reported that Padre Pio had visited him — something Savino recognized because he had detected the beautiful aroma so often reported around the priest. A week later, at about one a.m. on February 25, 1949, Savino felt a slap on the right side of his face — the side where the eye was completely gone. “I asked, 'Who touched me?'” testified Savino. “There was nobody. Again I smelled the aroma of Padre Pio. It was beautiful.”

When later the ophthalmologist — an atheist — came to examine the remaining eye, there was a shock. “To their amazement,” writes Ruffin, “the doctors found that his shattered face was fully healed and covered with new skin. Savino, however, was most delighted at the fact that he could see. 'I can see you!' he said excitedly to the eye specialist.”

And indeed, as is medically documented, the doctor saw, to his “utter astonishment”, that Savino had his right eye back. Somehow, the eye had materialized. (“Now I believe too,” exclaimed the doctor, “because of what my own hands have touched!”) As Ruffin notes, it's one thing when diseases disappear; this is exciting. It's tremendous to hear of diabetes or arthritis or even cancer leaving a person. “For a missing part of the body to be restored, however, is another matter,” noted the expert biographer.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The miracles that I am thinking of have been verified by secular doctors and scientists.

I don't know of one where an amputee has been cured but I know of a couple of Saints including Peter who raised the dead. When I say they raised the dead, I mean they were considered dead for 3days prior to being resurrected via a miracle.

And another man in 1940s who lost his eye out of his socket and Doctors advised his eyesight could not be restored. While bandaged in hospital Padre Pio visited him.

The eye reappears

More astounding still may be the thoroughly-documented cure of a construction worker named Giovanni Savino, who was severely injured on February 15, 1949, in a dynamite mishap. When Dr. Guglielmo San- guinetti, a physican, and Padre Raffaele, another Capuchin, and Father Dominic Meyer rushed to the injured man's side, “all three men noted that among Savino's numerous injuries, his right eye was gone entirely. They agreed that 'the socket was empty',” reports biographer Bernard Ruffin. Other doctors confirmed that the eye was completely annihilated and the other one badly damaged.

It looked like Savino was also going to be totally blind. For three days, the worker lay on a hospital bed with his head and face bandaged. When a surgeon entered the room three days later, Savino reported that Padre Pio had visited him — something Savino recognized because he had detected the beautiful aroma so often reported around the priest. A week later, at about one a.m. on February 25, 1949, Savino felt a slap on the right side of his face — the side where the eye was completely gone. “I asked, 'Who touched me?'” testified Savino. “There was nobody. Again I smelled the aroma of Padre Pio. It was beautiful.”

When later the ophthalmologist — an atheist — came to examine the remaining eye, there was a shock. “To their amazement,” writes Ruffin, “the doctors found that his shattered face was fully healed and covered with new skin. Savino, however, was most delighted at the fact that he could see. 'I can see you!' he said excitedly to the eye specialist.”

And indeed, as is medically documented, the doctor saw, to his “utter astonishment”, that Savino had his right eye back. Somehow, the eye had materialized. (“Now I believe too,” exclaimed the doctor, “because of what my own hands have touched!&#8221 As Ruffin notes, it's one thing when diseases disappear; this is exciting. It's tremendous to hear of diabetes or arthritis or even cancer leaving a person. “For a missing part of the body to be restored, however, is another matter,” noted the expert biographer.

Wow, that's some story. STrange though, for how "thoroughly-documented" this case was I can't find any trace of it anywhere near a respectable unbiased source. Sure, there are lots of propagandist pages for Padre Pio that relate the story, but no real confirmation that any of this happened. Can you give just one unbiased source that gives any shred of evidence that this happened?
Update-still can't find anything that would verify this story, in spite of its well-documentation. I did find that the Ole Padre was considered a fraud by the church for decades. There is even documentation at the Vatican that suggests he used acid on himself to fake stigmata. Among other "miracles" he's laid claim to are bilocation and...time travel lol. Of course, you won't find any evidence of his miracles outside of the witnesses that were a part of his little "cult" of followers. Anyone want to guess who was one of these followers?? THat's right, Giovanni Savino...

 

[Ana the Ist]

To any who doubt people pray for "stuff"

http://www.christianforums.com/t7648858/

 

[AvgJoe]

So just how important do you think prayer is?

It is absolutely important. What a great privilege! I can't think of any greater honor than to have an audience with the One who rules over ALL creation? We have been invited to talk with the One who put the stars in place. We are invited to seek counsel from the One who is truth and wisdom. We are invited to sit down with the One who knows all things.

Does God answer 'Yes' to all prayer? No, but He does answer all prayer. He either answers with a Yes, a No or a Wait.

Any good reasons why god would deny the Christians and yet push an atheist to the forefront?

God makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust (Matthew 5:45). You got the job this time. A Christian gets a job the next time. Nothing special here.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It is absolutely important. What a great privilege! I can't think of any greater honor than to have an audience with the One who rules over ALL creation? We have been invited to talk with the One who put the stars in place. We are invited to seek counsel from the One who is truth and wisdom. We are invited to sit down with the One who knows all things.

Does God answer 'Yes' to all prayer? No, but He does answer all prayer. He either answers with a Yes, a No or a Wait.




God makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust (Matthew 5:45). You got the job this time. A Christian gets a job the next time. Nothing special here.

good answer. Did you happen to read post 29-page 3 where I addressed the "yes, no, or wait" answer? If you did...what is the difference between a god who answers that way and no god at all?

 

[dkbwarrior]

I think you may misunderstood, I didn't mean that getting my job verified my beliefs, I meant the answers in response to the thread I created here. Particularly, the one that described god's responses to prayer as-"yes, no, or not yet". I don't see this as any different than the results we would expect if there were no god or if god didn't answer prayers, here's an example...

Lisa prays to god to send her a man to marry so she can start a family. If she meets a man next week, they get married a month later, then god said, "yes" to her prayer! (It's a miracle!)
If Lisa never meets a man that she ends up marrying then god said, "no" (god must've had more important plans for her...)
If Lisa doesn't meet the man should would marry for 5 years after she prayed to god, then his answer was, "not yet" (way to stay strong in your faith Lisa!)

Now, let's suppose hypothetically that Lisa lives in some crazy mixed-up universe where not only does god not exist, prayer doesn't exist either!! (Crazy right???)
Lisa wants to meet a good man she can spend the rest of her life with in marriage. We can expect one of three things to happen...
Lisa soon meets a man she wants to marry! (Same as god saying "yes")
Lisa dies before marrying. (Same as god saying "no")
Lisa searches many years before finding the man she marries. (Same as god saying "not yet")

See, regardless of whether god exists or Lisa prays for what she wants, she experiences the same results.

There are many different christian perspectives about how God answers prayer. However, the Bible doesn't teach a yes, no, or wait God when it comes to the promises of God, (IMHO). I personally believe what the Bible says about it:

18But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay.
19For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus,
was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
20For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
-2 Corinthians 1:20

Peace...

 

[Ana the Ist]

There are many different christian perspectives about how God answers prayer. However, the Bible doesn't teach a yes, no, or wait God when it comes to the promises of God, (IMHO). I personally believe what the Bible says about it:

18But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay.
19For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus,
was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
20For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
-2 Corinthians 1:20

Peace...

That's really interesting...from the scripture you quoted here, I'm guessing you think The answer from god is always yes? Is it the fault of The person praying then if it goes unanswered?

 

[dkbwarrior]

That's really interesting...from the scripture you quoted here, I'm guessing you think The answer from god is always yes?

The answer from God is always yes, if it is something that God has promised. (Defining what is and isn't a promise is a whole different can of worms, but lets just take this one step at a time...)

Is it the fault of The person praying then if it goes unanswered?

Not usually, though it could be, depending on the situation/circumstance.

It is through faith that we inherit the promises of God. Faith is what we use to lay hold on eternal life, and all the promises that it contains.

11And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
-Hebrews 6:11-12

Let me use an analogy. If you get mugged on the subway, whose fault is that? Is it the fault of the mugger? Or is it your fault for not taking enough self defense lessons?

We would never blame the victim for an action that someone else has taken against them. Yet, we also logically conclude that a person who has spent enough time and effort could become proficient in self defense, proficient in the use of a handgun, carry a panic alarm and pepper spray, and probably be prepared to repel most such attacks.

In other words, we don't hold a persons lack of preparedness as evidence of culpability when things happen or do not happen to them.

In like manner, satan is the enforcer of the law of sin and death on this planet. He is the thief. Any need or lack that we have in our lives can be directly traced back to the admission of sin into this world in the garden, and the resultant power of death that this act gave the enemy to roam around this planet devouring whom he wills.

God has given us, in His Word, the ability to defend ourselves through the process of faith in His promises. But that is a process that requires an immense amount of time and focus and energy, in order to be prepared to repel all such attacks. Most of us don't spend that much time in the Word, or make it the number one priority in our lives; just like most people don't take self defense lessons 3 times a day, go to the range and practice shooting twice a week.

However, just because we are not fully prepared when we need something from God, doesn't absolve satan from his part in creating that need in the first place, nor does it transfer blame onto the victim.

That is why most christians have lives that are not much different than the rest of the world. While they may have accepted faith in Jesus Christ as their saviour from an eternity in hell, they don't live their lives consumed with the Word of God, with the promises of God, owning His life as their own in every waking moment of their existence.

The very small handful of people that do so are considered fanatics, radicals, mabey even mentally unbalanced. However, they are also the ones that have made history, from Noah, to Abraham, to Moses and Joshua; Jesus Himself, the apostles, most notably Paul, the reformers, Martin Luther, and John Calvin; to modern day heros like Oral Roberts, T.L. Osborne, Paul Crouch, Kenneth Hagin. People thing they are wacked, yet they have all changed the world, and impacted it in a positive way for the kingdom of God.

Peace...

 

[LOCO]

Wow, that's some story. STrange though, for how "thoroughly-documented" this case was I can't find any trace of it anywhere near a respectable unbiased source. Sure, there are lots of propagandist pages for Padre Pio that relate the story, but no real confirmation that any of this happened. Can you give just one unbiased source that gives any shred of evidence that this happened?
Update-still can't find anything that would verify this story, in spite of its well-documentation. I did find that the Ole Padre was considered a fraud by the church for decades. There is even documentation at the Vatican that suggests he used acid on himself to fake stigmata. Among other "miracles" he's laid claim to are bilocation and...time travel lol. Of course, you won't find any evidence of his miracles outside of the witnesses that were a part of his little "cult" of followers. Anyone want to guess who was one of these followers?? THat's right, Giovanni Savino...

I don't think that the Church ever considered Padre Pio a fraud. The Church is very sceptical of so called 'miracle makers' and there is a thorough process in place and that includes critically examining the person, eyewitness reports, doctors reports, psychiatric and psychological testing. Tests are done by secular and religious professionals. It can take decades for a miracle to be considered a true miracle by the Church, that you found some critical evaluations of Padre Pio is not surprising.

Savino became a follower after witnessing the miracles. He was an atheist prior to that.

Documents supporting all 'miracles' are kept at the Vatican and is available for viewing. Also kept at the Hospital archives.

As for the claims that Padre Pio would've thrown acid on himself for 50years are also difficult to believe.

A) There were no scars on his stigmatic wounds when he died and buried. He was paraded in a procession in a glass coffin in front of thousands of people, there are pictures of him in his coffin and there are no signs of acid burn. His skin is normal. 50years of continuous acid burn would have left disfiguring scars. The medical evidence at death would be hard to fake.


B) There is no record of the author of these claims visiting the Vatican archives where he allegedly found these materials. All visitors must show ID and register details prior to accessing the library.

C) Acid does not cause the excessive bleeding seen.

D) Acid is a poison, he would be dead within a couple of years. He had the stigmata for 50years.

E) The claims were not corroborated by witnesses or anyone else. They are the Luzattos sole claim. If he was faking it for 50years surely a few people would have seen.


I understand you have difficulty believing in miracle or phenomena such as stigmata. Miracles are contrary to what we know about nature.

 

[LOCO]

Padre Pio Credited With Parish's Conversion


Former Orthodox Woman Says Saint Obtained Cure for Her

By Nieves San Martín

PESCEANA, Romania, NOV. 28, 2007 (Zenit.org).- The 71-year-old mother of a former Orthodox priest says she was cured of lung cancer through the intercession of Padre Pio. After the apparent miracle, the priest explained, he and his mother, and members of his parish, have become Catholics.

Lucrecia Tudor was born into the Romanian Orthodox Church and her son, Victor, followed a vocation to the priesthood. In 2002, he was working in Pesceana, close to Valcea, in south central Romania. Another son, Mariano, dedicated himself to painting, especially iconography, and lives and works in Rome.

The story of the family, and the church they are building dedicated to Saint Pio de Pietrelcina, was related to ZENIT by Italian journalist, Renzo Allegri.

Lucrecia was diagnosed with a tumor in her left lung more than five years ago. Romanian doctors told her surgery was impossible and she had few months to live. Lucrecia and Father Victor turned to Mariano for help, hoping that a doctor in Rome could be found to give a better prognosis.

Mariano contacted a well-known surgeon, who invited the young painter to bring his mother to Rome, where he would try to save her.

After reviewing the reports from his Romanian colleagues, the doctor examined Lucrecia with more detail, only to arrive at the same conclusion: An operation was useless. He could only offer medications to ease the sharp pain, which, he predicted would increase in the terminal phase.

Mariano kept his mother with himself in Rome so as to be near the doctor for checkups. He was working on a mosaic in a church and, as his mother does not speak Italian, he kept her close by. While he was working, his mother walked through the church, contemplating the paintings and statues.
In one corner, there was a large statue of Padre Pio. Lucrecia liked the statue and asked Mariano who it depicted. Mariano related briefly the story of the saint. In the coming days, he saw his mother spending all her time seated before the image, with which she chatted as if it were alive.
Two weeks later, Mariano took his mother to the hospital for her checkup. The doctor said the tumor had disappeared.

Lucrecia had asked Padre Pio to help her, even though she was Orthodox, and, she said, the saint had granted her request.

“The great cure of my mother, accomplished through Padre Pio in favor of an Orthodox woman, impressed me much,” Father Victor said. "I began to read the life of the Italian saint. I told my parishioners what had happened. They all knew my mother and everyone knew we had gone to Italy in order to try a surgical intervention, and that she had returned home cured, without any doctor having operated.

"In my parish, they began to know and love Padre Pio. We read everything we found about him. His holiness won us over. Meanwhile, in my parish other sick people also received extraordinary graces from Padre Pio. Among my people, there spread a great enthusiasm and, little by little, we decided to become Catholics, in order to be closer to Padre.”

The step from the Orthodox to the Catholic Church required a slow process. And there were difficulties of every kind, Allegri explained in relating the story. But the parishioners continued in the process and even decided to build a church to dedicate it to Padre Pio.

"The funds are the result of the savings of this poor people, and of the help of some German Catholics who heard our story,” Father Victor said. “And my parishioners are those who are bringing forward the work, working for free, naturally. […] After a few days, we celebrated solemnly the placing of the first stone. And it was a big party, because the Metropolitan Archbishop of Fagaras and Alba Julia of the Romanians, meaning, the highest authority of the Greek Catholic Church in Romania, came to celebrate […] To conclude this ceremony, the metropolitan wished to meet my mother, cured through a miracle of Padre Pio, and posed with her for a photo.”


From Zenit

 

[Ana the Ist]

Padre Pio Credited With Parish's Conversion


Former Orthodox Woman Says Saint Obtained Cure for Her

By Nieves San Martín

PESCEANA, Romania, NOV. 28, 2007 (Zenit.org).- The 71-year-old mother of a former Orthodox priest says she was cured of lung cancer through the intercession of Padre Pio. After the apparent miracle, the priest explained, he and his mother, and members of his parish, have become Catholics.

Lucrecia Tudor was born into the Romanian Orthodox Church and her son, Victor, followed a vocation to the priesthood. In 2002, he was working in Pesceana, close to Valcea, in south central Romania. Another son, Mariano, dedicated himself to painting, especially iconography, and lives and works in Rome.

The story of the family, and the church they are building dedicated to Saint Pio de Pietrelcina, was related to ZENIT by Italian journalist, Renzo Allegri.

Lucrecia was diagnosed with a tumor in her left lung more than five years ago. Romanian doctors told her surgery was impossible and she had few months to live. Lucrecia and Father Victor turned to Mariano for help, hoping that a doctor in Rome could be found to give a better prognosis.

Mariano contacted a well-known surgeon, who invited the young painter to bring his mother to Rome, where he would try to save her.

After reviewing the reports from his Romanian colleagues, the doctor examined Lucrecia with more detail, only to arrive at the same conclusion: An operation was useless. He could only offer medications to ease the sharp pain, which, he predicted would increase in the terminal phase.

Mariano kept his mother with himself in Rome so as to be near the doctor for checkups. He was working on a mosaic in a church and, as his mother does not speak Italian, he kept her close by. While he was working, his mother walked through the church, contemplating the paintings and statues.
In one corner, there was a large statue of Padre Pio. Lucrecia liked the statue and asked Mariano who it depicted. Mariano related briefly the story of the saint. In the coming days, he saw his mother spending all her time seated before the image, with which she chatted as if it were alive.
Two weeks later, Mariano took his mother to the hospital for her checkup. The doctor said the tumor had disappeared.

Lucrecia had asked Padre Pio to help her, even though she was Orthodox, and, she said, the saint had granted her request.

“The great cure of my mother, accomplished through Padre Pio in favor of an Orthodox woman, impressed me much,” Father Victor said. "I began to read the life of the Italian saint. I told my parishioners what had happened. They all knew my mother and everyone knew we had gone to Italy in order to try a surgical intervention, and that she had returned home cured, without any doctor having operated.

"In my parish, they began to know and love Padre Pio. We read everything we found about him. His holiness won us over. Meanwhile, in my parish other sick people also received extraordinary graces from Padre Pio. Among my people, there spread a great enthusiasm and, little by little, we decided to become Catholics, in order to be closer to Padre.”

The step from the Orthodox to the Catholic Church required a slow process. And there were difficulties of every kind, Allegri explained in relating the story. But the parishioners continued in the process and even decided to build a church to dedicate it to Padre Pio.

"The funds are the result of the savings of this poor people, and of the help of some German Catholics who heard our story,” Father Victor said. “And my parishioners are those who are bringing forward the work, working for free, naturally. […] After a few days, we celebrated solemnly the placing of the first stone. And it was a big party, because the Metropolitan Archbishop of Fagaras and Alba Julia of the Romanians, meaning, the highest authority of the Greek Catholic Church in Romania, came to celebrate […] To conclude this ceremony, the metropolitan wished to meet my mother, cured through a miracle of Padre Pio, and posed with her for a photo.”


From Zenit

Wow! What an amazing story! Since its so recent I'm sure we won't have any trouble coming up with the name of the Dr.s who diagnosed the old lady with lung cancer, or the names of the Dr.s who diagnosed her as being cured. Surely, we also have statements from them backing up this incredible story as well. I bet whoever wrote that article just left them out because he didn't want to get hung-up on the "details". Do you happen to have any of that information?

It's a shame that sometimes this stuff just happens with cancer. As strange as it sounds, sometimes it just goes into remission and goes away. If cancer were 100% fatal, guys like me would be far more inclined to believe this was a miracle.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Just out of curiosity, did this information come from actual journalistic research? Or did it come from Renzo Allegri's book, "Padre Pio-Man of Hope"? Considering his body of work towards promoting Christianity, he hardly seems to be an objective source does he?

 

[AvgJoe]

good answer. Did you happen to read post 29-page 3 where I addressed the "yes, no, or wait" answer? If you did...what is the difference between a god who answers that way and no god at all?

So it's all coincidence? It's funny, when I pray, alot of coincidences happen, but when I don't, not so much.

The difference between knowing God is there, and professing 'no god', is faith.

 

[dkbwarrior]

The answer from God is always yes, if it is something that God has promised. (Defining what is and isn't a promise is a whole different can of worms, but lets just take this one step at a time...)



Not usually, though it could be, depending on the situation/circumstance.

It is through faith that we inherit the promises of God. Faith is what we use to lay hold on eternal life, and all the promises that it contains.

11And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
-Hebrews 6:11-12

Let me use an analogy. If you get mugged on the subway, whose fault is that? Is it the fault of the mugger? Or is it your fault for not taking enough self defense lessons?

We would never blame the victim for an action that someone else has taken against them. Yet, we also logically conclude that a person who has spent enough time and effort could become proficient in self defense, proficient in the use of a handgun, carry a panic alarm and pepper spray, and probably be prepared to repel most such attacks.

In other words, we don't hold a persons lack of preparedness as evidence of culpability when things happen or do not happen to them.

In like manner, satan is the enforcer of the law of sin and death on this planet. He is the thief. Any need or lack that we have in our lives can be directly traced back to the admission of sin into this world in the garden, and the resultant power of death that this act gave the enemy to roam around this planet devouring whom he wills.

God has given us, in His Word, the ability to defend ourselves through the process of faith in His promises. But that is a process that requires an immense amount of time and focus and energy, in order to be prepared to repel all such attacks. Most of us don't spend that much time in the Word, or make it the number one priority in our lives; just like most people don't take self defense lessons 3 times a day, go to the range and practice shooting twice a week.

However, just because we are not fully prepared when we need something from God, doesn't absolve satan from his part in creating that need in the first place, nor does it transfer blame onto the victim.

That is why most christians have lives that are not much different than the rest of the world. While they may have accepted faith in Jesus Christ as their saviour from an eternity in hell, they don't live their lives consumed with the Word of God, with the promises of God, owning His life as their own in every waking moment of their existence.

The very small handful of people that do so are considered fanatics, radicals, mabey even mentally unbalanced. However, they are also the ones that have made history, from Noah, to Abraham, to Moses and Joshua; Jesus Himself, the apostles, most notably Paul, the reformers, Martin Luther, and John Calvin; to modern day heros like Oral Roberts, T.L. Osborne, Paul Crouch, Kenneth Hagin. People thing they are wacked, yet they have all changed the world, and impacted it in a positive way for the kingdom of God.

Peace...

Never got a response to this. Mabey you missed it?

Peace...

 

[Ana the Ist]

So it's all coincidence? It's funny, when I pray, alot of coincidences happen, but when I don't, not so much.

The difference between knowing God is there, and professing 'no god', is faith.

LOL you basically answered your own question. When you pray, you notice more coincidences. When you don't pray, you hardly notice them at all. All this says to me is when you pray, you begin to look for coincidences, so naturally you notice them more. If you don't pray, you aren't looking for them, so you don't notice them. Pretty simple.
I've noticed many coincidences in my life, and I never pray at all. I also don't think they are anything more than just coincidences. What kind of coincidences do you notice that you would attribute to god answering your prayers?

Can you reword that last sentence? It can be read at least two different ways. If you meant that you need faith to believe god exists, I agree.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Never got a response to this. Mabey you missed it?

Peace...

I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were expecting a response, I thought you were just stating your opinion. I thought the questions you asked were rhetorical, were they?

To be completely honest, I didn't understand how the mugger analogy related to the OP, or the part about Satan and sin either.

Was there a direct question that I missed?

 

[dkbwarrior]

Well, from the christians perspective, when Adam was created he was immortal, and perfect. The fall is where Adam changed his family association from God as Father, to satan, and gave satan the power of death over mankind. All the trials of life that we experience, such as sickness, pain, loneliness, fear, poverty or financial lack, etc., are a result of the fall and are part of the excercise of the power of death that the devil excercises upon mankind:

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Hebrews 2:14

God, in response, has provided a myriad of promises in His Word to us, which, if we believe in our heart, and confess with our mouth, can defend us from the effects of death that we see all around us. We start by accepting Jesus and placing our faith in Him. This reverses the familial bond with satan, that we are born with, and gives us access to these promises, as a child of God.

Prayer, for the most part, is how we can involve ourselves in that process. We are defending what God has made us to be, from what satan (through the excercise of the power of death) is trying to take from us. Thus the analogy of the robber. Jesus calls satan the thief. He comes to steal, and to kill, and to destroy.

10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
-John 10:10

You had asked if it was the fault of the person praying, that their prayer was not answered. My point was that we don't blame the victim of a crime for their situation, even if we think they could have done more to defend themselves. Because of the way God made us, prayer (for things) could be more accurately described as defense against a thief.

I hope this helps to clarify.

Peace...

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well, from the christians perspective, when Adam was created he was immortal, and perfect. The fall is where Adam changed his family association from God as Father, to satan, and gave satan the power of death over mankind. All the trials of life that we experience, such as sickness, pain, loneliness, fear, poverty or financial lack, etc., are a result of the fall and are part of the excercise of the power of death that the devil excercises upon mankind:

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Hebrews 2:14

God, in response, has provided a myriad of promises in His Word to us, which, if we believe in our heart, and confess with our mouth, can defend us from the effects of death that we see all around us. We start by accepting Jesus and placing our faith in Him. This reverses the familial bond with satan, that we are born with, and gives us access to these promises, as a child of God.

Prayer, for the most part, is how we can involve ourselves in that process. We are defending what God has made us to be, from what satan (through the excercise of the power of death) is trying to take from us. Thus the analogy of the robber. Jesus calls satan the thief. He comes to steal, and to kill, and to destroy.

10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
-John 10:10

You had asked if it was the fault of the person praying, that their prayer was not answered. My point was that we don't blame the victim of a crime for their situation, even if we think they could have done more to defend themselves. Because of the way God made us, prayer (for things) could be more accurately described as defense against a thief.

I hope this helps to clarify.

Peace...

It does clarify, thank you. I only mentioned the person praying being at fault because that was the answer given my some responders. "THey prayed for the wrong thing" or "they prayed for selfish reasons" etc. If prayer is how we get god to help us through the troubles Satan has set before us, then how would you answer the OP? Why did god deny so many Christians in dire need and instead allow an atheist (who never prays) to prosper?

 

[AvgJoe]

LOL you basically answered your own question. When you pray, you notice more coincidences. When you don't pray, you hardly notice them at all. All this says to me is when you pray, you begin to look for coincidences, so naturally you notice them more. If you don't pray, you aren't looking for them, so you don't notice them. Pretty simple.
I've noticed many coincidences in my life, and I never pray at all. I also don't think they are anything more than just coincidences. What kind of coincidences do you notice that you would attribute to god answering your prayers?

Can you reword that last sentence? It can be read at least two different ways. If you meant that you need faith to believe god exists, I agree.

I don't go looking for coincidences to happen, they just do. Pretty simple.

Yes, that's what I meant, to believe in God you have to have faith.