Do we need prayer??

[Ana the Ist]

Of course you believe it otherwise you would not have asked the question 'why did the atheist get the job over a Christian'.

Not silly at all to ask for HIS will to be done, if you have read anything about the Christian faith you would know that. Tell me what books you have read about Christianity, it's history and it's doctrines or are you just here to mock?

The function of prayer depends on the type of prayer. What type of prayer were you thinking of?

Basically, prayer is a form of communication, a way of talking to God or to the saints.

While we often still think of prayer primarily as asking God for something, prayer, properly understood, is a conversation with God or with the Saints. Just as we cannot hold a conversation with another person unless he can hear us, the very act of praying is an implicit recognition of the presence of God or the Saints here with us. And in praying, we strengthen that recognition of the presence of God, which draws us closer to Him

So...are you a mind reader? I don't know how else you can know what someone believes without them saying it. If you must know, another poster on here asked a similar question and that's what put the thought in my mind. He wanted to know why it seemed like so many jerks were getting ahead in life while a righteous Christian man like himself couldn't catch a break. He didn't frame the question very well so I used an analogy from my own life as an example. I don't expect god to say "yes" to anything since I don't believe in him. I simply wanted to know what the forum members thought about the topic. (It's called a discussion)

Why are you so upset? Does an atheist asking about prayer bother you in some way? To answer your question...I specifically meant prayers that request something from god. (Healing, a sign, opportunity, help, etc.)

I've always considered communication to have a minimum of 2 participants, does it still count if god doesn't answer you?

I felt like my example was a good one. I got my job about a year into our country's economic troubles, when things were almost at their worst. Joblessness, debt, foreclosure were hitting everyone pretty hard. My job not only pays very well, it has incredible security and benefits. No doubt a lot of needy Christians tried to fill the few available spots.

To me, of course, it just verifies my beliefs. I had no doubt I would hear many different answers as to why my competition didn't succeed. What I didn't expect was to hear so many different (and conflicting) ideas about what the use of prayer is and how and why god intervenes when he does.

 

[razeontherock]

the problem is anytime that I point out a problem in your logic/argument/reasoning we eventually come to a point where you claim something that no longer adds to the discussion at hand and effectively ends the discussion

You're trying to assert that failure to grasp the larger picture is valid grounds to form a conclusion.

I disagree.

I prefer not to form an opinion until I have sufficient information. That you do not grasp how things are related does not mean they aren't. Neither does pointing out something you haven't accounted for constitute ad hom.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You're trying to assert that failure to grasp the larger picture is valid grounds to form a conclusion.

I disagree.

I prefer not to form an opinion until I have sufficient information. That you do not grasp how things are related does not mean they aren't. Neither does pointing out something you haven't accounted for constitute ad hom.

Well at least you aren't trying to say that you don't do it.
Let's take a look at the definition of ad hominem shall we?
Ad hominem – attacking the arguer instead of the argument.

Using our recent discussion on faith as an example, I made a statement about Abraham not needing faith since he had evidence. You countered with an archaic definition of faith as evidence. I showed why that idea was logically flawed. You then claimed that was only 1/2 of the definition of faith, and that since I didn't have any faith I couldn't understand what you were talking about.

INstead of addressing the topic of faith, your next assertion was about my ability to comprehend. It's really a perfect example of an ad hominem, instead of addressing faith you made the argument about me.

Of course this has several problems. Your assertion isn't proveable by any means. You fail tp account for your side of the equation (i.e. what if the actual problem was your utter inability to describe faith in a meaningful way?). The most glaring problem though is the ad hominem, instead of discussing faith you wanted to discuss me. It's really a common logical fallacy that Christians fall into, so don't feel bad about it.

I've had many a discussion of faith in my time, with Christians and adherents to other religions. I don't feel the need to defend my capacity to understand these ideas to someone who refuses to define terms he uses regularly (see the irony here?).

So feel free to continue following me around CF but until you can have a discussion without resorting to ad hominems and thought terminating cliches, I will be ignoring you.

 

[razeontherock]

Well at least you aren't trying to say that you don't do it.
Let's take a look at the definition of ad hominem shall we?
Ad hominem – attacking the arguer instead of the argument.

Using our recent discussion on faith as an example, I made a statement about Abraham not needing faith since he had evidence. You countered with an archaic definition of faith as evidence. I showed why that idea was logically flawed. You then claimed that was only 1/2 of the definition of faith, and that since I didn't have any faith I couldn't understand what you were talking about.

INstead of addressing the topic of faith, your next assertion was about my ability to comprehend. It's really a perfect example of an ad hominem, instead of addressing faith you made the argument about me.

No sir, I addressed the content of the discussion. The story is universally known as "how Abraham became the Father of our Faith." That you conclude no Faith was involved, only demonstrates the fact that you do in fact not understand the story. Which is ok, and not an attack at all.

what if the actual problem was your utter inability to describe faith in a meaningful way?).

Faith does not exist so it can be described. And the Church finds Hebrews 11 rather meaningful. Again, that you fail to find meaning in it only speaks to your POV, which is not unusual at all considering your atheism

 

[razeontherock]

Using our recent discussion on faith as an example, I made a statement about Abraham not needing faith since he had evidence. You countered with an archaic definition of faith as evidence. I showed why that idea was logically flawed.

You're going to have to come to terms with the fact that on CF, you're going to come in contact with Biblical Christians, who speak in terms of Biblical concepts. One of them is Faith, which is not archaic at all, since it is very much alive and vibrant in our lives today. Your re-definitions of that into some watered down irrelevant modernism simply carry no weight.

 

[LOCO]

So...are you a mind reader? I don't know how else you can know what someone believes without them saying it. If you must know, another poster on here asked a similar question and that's what put the thought in my mind. He wanted to know why it seemed like so many jerks were getting ahead in life while a righteous Christian man like himself couldn't catch a break. He didn't frame the question very well so I used an analogy from my own life as an example. I don't expect god to say "yes" to anything since I don't believe in him. I simply wanted to know what the forum members thought about the topic. (It's called a discussion)

Why are you so upset? Does an atheist asking about prayer bother you in some way? To answer your question...I specifically meant prayers that request something from god. (Healing, a sign, opportunity, help, etc.)

I've always considered communication to have a minimum of 2 participants, does it still count if god doesn't answer you?

I felt like my example was a good one. I got my job about a year into our country's economic troubles, when things were almost at their worst. Joblessness, debt, foreclosure were hitting everyone pretty hard. My job not only pays very well, it has incredible security and benefits. No doubt a lot of needy Christians tried to fill the few available spots.

To me, of course, it just verifies my beliefs. I had no doubt I would hear many different answers as to why my competition didn't succeed. What I didn't expect was to hear so many different (and conflicting) ideas about what the use of prayer is and how and why god intervenes when he does.

I never ask anything from God for myself. Hard to believe?

I pray for others and maybe others pray for me.

You can justify your getting the job over Christians as verifying your beliefs but the two are in no way related. For example, there are Christians who are intellectually superior than you are. That is a fact but it does not automatically follow that ALL Christians are more intelligent than you.

Different Christians have their own ideas about what prayer is, all Catholics regardless of where they live on the planet will tell you the same thing about what they believe about prayer. http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p4s1c2a3.htm

 

[Ana the Ist]

No sir, I addressed the content of the discussion. The story is universally known as "how Abraham became the Father of our Faith." That you conclude no Faith was involved, only demonstrates the fact that you do in fact not understand the story. Which is ok, and not an attack at all.



Faith does not exist so it can be described. And the Church finds Hebrews 11 rather meaningful. Again, that you fail to find meaning in it only speaks to your POV, which is not unusual at all considering your atheism

The problem with your whole argument here is that it's opinion, not something you can show, hence the logical fallacy. I didn't address it when you made it, because that gives your statement more validity than it deserves. But if you must...

I have no problem defining or understanding faith because I have had it. When I was younger I had faith in both god and Jesus. I outgrew this.
I have no issue discussing these things with others who understand them as well. I've had numerous discussions about faith.
Your assertion that I cannot understand faith merely because I don't currently have any is not only an ad hominem, its false.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You're going to have to come to terms with the fact that on CF, you're going to come in contact with Biblical Christians, who speak in terms of Biblical concepts. One of them is Faith, which is not archaic at all, since it is very much alive and vibrant in our lives today. Your re-definitions of that into some watered down irrelevant modernism simply carry no weight.

Maybe you should go back and reread that thread, I gave you multiple chances to define faith yourself...you couldn't. I can only conclude it is you who doesn't understand faith.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I never ask anything from God for myself. Hard to believe?

I pray for others and maybe others pray for me.

You can justify your getting the job over Christians as verifying your beliefs but the two are in no way related. For example, there are Christians who are intellectually superior than you are. That is a fact but it does not automatically follow that ALL Christians are more intelligent than you.

Different Christians have their own ideas about what prayer is, all Catholics regardless of where they live on the planet will tell you the same thing about what they believe about prayer. Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 4 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 2 ARTICLE 3

I think you may misunderstood, I didn't mean that getting my job verified my beliefs, I meant the answers in response to the thread I created here. Particularly, the one that described god's responses to prayer as-"yes, no, or not yet". I don't see this as any different than the results we would expect if there were no god or if god didn't answer prayers, here's an example...

Lisa prays to god to send her a man to marry so she can start a family. If she meets a man next week, they get married a month later, then god said, "yes" to her prayer! (It's a miracle!)
If Lisa never meets a man that she ends up marrying then god said, "no" (god must've had more important plans for her...)
If Lisa doesn't meet the man should would marry for 5 years after she prayed to god, then his answer was, "not yet" (way to stay strong in your faith Lisa!)

Now, let's suppose hypothetically that Lisa lives in some crazy mixed-up universe where not only does god not exist, prayer doesn't exist either!! (Crazy right???)
Lisa wants to meet a good man she can spend the rest of her life with in marriage. We can expect one of three things to happen...
Lisa soon meets a man she wants to marry! (Same as god saying "yes")
Lisa dies before marrying. (Same as god saying "no")
Lisa searches many years before finding the man she marries. (Same as god saying "not yet")

See, regardless of whether god exists or Lisa prays for what she wants, she experiences the same results.

 

[LOCO]

I think you may misunderstood, I didn't mean that getting my job verified my beliefs, I meant the answers in response to the thread I created here. Particularly, the one that described god's responses to prayer as-"yes, no, or not yet". I don't see this as any different than the results we would expect if there were no god or if god didn't answer prayers, here's an example...

Lisa prays to god to send her a man to marry so she can start a family. If she meets a man next week, they get married a month later, then god said, "yes" to her prayer! (It's a miracle!)
If Lisa never meets a man that she ends up marrying then god said, "no" (god must've had more important plans for her...)
If Lisa doesn't meet the man should would marry for 5 years after she prayed to god, then his answer was, "not yet" (way to stay strong in your faith Lisa!)

Now, let's suppose hypothetically that Lisa lives in some crazy mixed-up universe where not only does god not exist, prayer doesn't exist either!! (Crazy right???)
Lisa wants to meet a good man she can spend the rest of her life with in marriage. We can expect one of three things to happen...
Lisa soon meets a man she wants to marry! (Same as god saying "yes")
Lisa dies before marrying. (Same as god saying "no")
Lisa searches many years before finding the man she marries. (Same as god saying "not yet")

See, regardless of whether god exists or Lisa prays for what she wants, she experiences the same results.

You are asking big, huge theological questions which I will try to address but putting people down because they have 'faith' is not welcome here. These are questions that qualified theologians struggle with so people here including myself may also struggle with.

You are talking about Christians praying for what they want. Personally, I don't know any Christian who prays for personal 'wants'. Not saying they don't exist, but I don't personally know any. Others here may answer differently. I do know Christians who ask for 'needs' such as food, roof over their heads etc.

We may look at say the famine in Sudan and parts of Africa which has killed over 3million people in the last 2 years and say 'If there was a God why doesn't he stop it'. In this particular case, the world has abundant food some countries waste it, we have enough to nourish and avoid the waste of those 3million plus lives. We actually have enough to feed them and ourselves but we haven't shared it. We are also complicit in the loss of these lives.

You may not like the answers given about prayer but it is true and sincere. We actually believe that God answers all prayers. Sometimes we don't like the answer but we have to accept it with grace. Now, that may seem unbelievable to you but this is a part of faith which cannot be explained. People here including me will tell you that we have a personal relationship with Christ, and it is very real to us. As real as the relationships we have with our family.

Faith regardless of whether it is Hinduism, Buddhism etc cannot be quantified or explained fully. Otherwise it would not be faith. Now we look at the world as a whole and an overwhelming majority believe in a deity of some sort. Atheists may look at this population and regard them as ignorant, uneducated and simpletons but the truth is many of them are highly intelligent, well educated, maybe even Scientists and still they believe in a deity.

I will try to answer the prayer question simply put, prayer is a form of communication between us and God and the Saints in Heaven. In its proper use it should not be a request of 'God gimme, gimme, gimme' and also the person praying should ask themselves 'Have I done everything possible to help myself out of this situation, e.g. gone to Gamblers A or AA or professional counselling etc.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You are asking big, huge theological questions which I will try to address but putting people down because they have 'faith' is not welcome here. These are questions that qualified theologians struggle with so people here including myself may also struggle with.

You are talking about Christians praying for what they want. Personally, I don't know any Christian who prays for personal 'wants'. Not saying they don't exist, but I don't personally know any. Others here may answer differently. I do know Christians who ask for 'needs' such as food, roof over their heads etc.

We may look at say the famine in Sudan and parts of Africa which has killed over 3million people in the last 2 years and say 'If there was a God why doesn't he stop it'. In this particular case, the world has abundant food some countries waste it, we have enough to nourish and avoid the waste of those 3million plus lives. We actually have enough to feed them and ourselves but we haven't shared it. We are also complicit in the loss of these lives.

You may not like the answers given about prayer but it is true and sincere. We actually believe that God answers all prayers. Sometimes we don't like the answer but we have to accept it with grace. Now, that may seem unbelievable to you but this is a part of faith which cannot be explained. People here including me will tell you that we have a personal relationship with Christ, and it is very real to us. As real as the relationships we have with our family.

Faith regardless of whether it is Hinduism, Buddhism etc cannot be quantified or explained fully. Otherwise it would not be faith. Now we look at the world as a whole and an overwhelming majority believe in a deity of some sort. Atheists may look at this population and regard them as ignorant, uneducated and simpletons but the truth is many of them are highly intelligent, well educated, maybe even Scientists and still they believe in a deity.

I will try to answer the prayer question simply put, prayer is a form of communication between us and God and the Saints in Heaven. In its proper use it should not be a request of 'God gimme, gimme, gimme' and also the person praying should ask themselves 'Have I done everything possible to help myself out of this situation, e.g. gone to Gamblers A or AA or professional counselling etc.

Sorry, but I don't recall "insulting" anyone for having faith. If you see something that I wrote as an insult, feel free to show me where and I'll gladly remove the insult.

Whether or not you personally know of any Christians who pray for "wants" is irrelevant...it happens. The example I gave about "Lisa getting married" is actually one I see on this forum a lot-check the Christian Advice section. There are several threads from men and women who pray to god to send them a mate.
If you wanted an example of a "need" you can simply reread my OP. A job like mine with the health benefits package it has can mean the difference between life and death for many families, especially in difficult economic times like these.

Sorry, but I don't know what your example of the famine in Sudan has to do with prayer? Could you restate the point you were making differently somehow?

The number of people who have faith in something is no reflection of its truth value. To put that another way, just because a lot of people believe something doesn't make it true. The logical fallacy that refers to that argument is known as the "argument from popularity". Also, the idea that something is true because someone who is really smart believes it, or because someone who knows a lot about the topic believes it is a logical fallacy known as "argument from authority". The point there is that just because someone is really smart or knowledgeable does not make what they believe true.

You may not realize it yet, but I actually do like the answers given here. Like I already said, they seem to verify my beliefs. That isn't why I came here though, to verify my beliefs, I came here to see what Christians thought. Maybe if you tried to look at it as a non-Christian you would think that the way Christians talk about prayer is alternately self-serving or mysterious. The answers I've gotten here didn't disappoint.

 

[LOCO]

Sorry, but I don't recall "insulting" anyone for having faith. If you see something that I wrote as an insult, feel free to show me where and I'll gladly remove the insult.

Whether or not you personally know of any Christians who pray for "wants" is irrelevant...it happens. The example I gave about "Lisa getting married" is actually one I see on this forum a lot-check the Christian Advice section. There are several threads from men and women who pray to god to send them a mate.
If you wanted an example of a "need" you can simply reread my OP. A job like mine with the health benefits package it has can mean the difference between life and death for many families, especially in difficult economic times like these.

Sorry, but I don't know what your example of the famine in Sudan has to do with prayer? Could you restate the point you were making differently somehow?

The number of people who have faith in something is no reflection of its truth value. To put that another way, just because a lot of people believe something doesn't make it true. The logical fallacy that refers to that argument is known as the "argument from popularity". Also, the idea that something is true because someone who is really smart believes it, or because someone who knows a lot about the topic believes it is a logical fallacy known as "argument from authority". The point there is that just because someone is really smart or knowledgeable does not make what they believe true.

You may not realize it yet, but I actually do like the answers given here. Like I already said, they seem to verify my beliefs. That isn't why I came here though, to verify my beliefs, I came here to see what Christians thought. Maybe if you tried to look at it as a non-Christian you would think that the way Christians talk about prayer is alternately self-serving or mysterious. The answers I've gotten here didn't disappoint.

I never said numbers is a reflection of truth, you did. I am pointing out that it is the norm. Not believing in a deity is not.

Your job with health benefits has nothing to do with the non-American world. That is an insulated view. In Australia where I live and most of the other Western world such as UK, NZ, France, Canada, Germany we don't pay for hospital treatment. We have universal healthcare paid for by taxpayers. If my 10yo neighbour gets Leukaemia or breaks his leg, we can take him to any hospital and he will get treatment Free of Charge. If my 60yo dad has a heart attack or a lung disease from his smoking he also receives Free Treatment. We believe that the State and all its citizens have a 'right' to be treated for illnesses Free of Charge. For us it is a basic human right and I as a taxpayer don't mind contributing because I know some day I will need it or someone I love will need it.

The African famine illustrates that most of the time Gods answers are provided clearly but in this case we are too selfish to share the food and too blind to see the answer.

I'm glad to hear that you like the answers.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Faith regardless of whether it is Hinduism, Buddhism etc cannot be quantified or explained fully. Otherwise it would not be faith.

Are you speaking for all Hindis and buddhists now?? That's amazing.

I'll agree with you when you say "faith cannot be quantified". THat's like quantifying "freedom" or "justice" since these are concepts trying to measure them seems silly.

I'll have to disagree however that faith cannot be explained. Regardless of who holds it, it has commonalities. If it did not, if it were "inexplicable" or "indefinable" then the word would lose any real meaning and therefore significance.

 

[LOCO]

Are you speaking for all Hindis and buddhists now?? That's amazing.

I'll agree with you when you say "faith cannot be quantified". THat's like quantifying "freedom" or "justice" since these are concepts trying to measure them seems silly.

I'll have to disagree however that faith cannot be explained. Regardless of who holds it, it has commonalities. If it did not, if it were "inexplicable" or "indefinable" then the word would lose any real meaning and therefore significance.

Did I say I was speaking for Hindus and Buddhists? I am talking about faith. It comes in several flavours and none of them can be explained fully, that is why it is called faith. Faith has been explained to you by others here but you are not satisfied with the answers.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I never said numbers is a reflection of truth, you did. I am pointing out that it is the norm. Not believing in a deity is not.

Your job with health benefits has nothing to do with the non-American world. That is an insulated view. In Australia where I live and most of the other Western world such as UK, NZ, France, Canada, Germany we don't pay for hospital treatment. We have universal healthcare paid for by taxpayers. If my 10yo neighbour gets Leukaemia or breaks his leg, we can take him to any hospital and he will get treatment Free of Charge. If my 60yo dad has a heart attack or a lung disease from his smoking he also receives Free Treatment. We believe that the State and all its citizens have a 'right' to be treated for illnesses Free of Charge. For us it is a basic human right and I as a taxpayer don't mind contributing because I know some day I will need it or someone I love will need it.

The African famine illustrates that most of the time Gods answers are provided clearly but in this case we are too selfish to share the food and too blind to see the answer.

I'm glad to hear that you like the answers.

What does "the norm" have to do with the truth either? I'll give you a hint...nothing.

Honestly, your healthcare system has no relevance to the question in the OP at all. The job in the example of the OP was certainly a need for me and undoubtedly many of the Christians who prayed for it and were denied. The healthcare system of Australia wasn't going to help out the 349 applicants who didn't make it, so your entire second paragraph really has no place in this discussion.

I still don't see the point you are making about the African famine. Are you trying to say that god provided clear answers to the 349 applicants during a time when everyone around them was losing their homes and jobs?? What exactly was this clear answer that they were too "blind" to see?

 

[LOCO]

What does "the norm" have to do with the truth either? I'll give you a hint...nothing.

Honestly, your healthcare system has no relevance to the question in the OP at all. The job in the example of the OP was certainly a need for me and undoubtedly many of the Christians who prayed for it and were denied. The healthcare system of Australia wasn't going to help out the 349 applicants who didn't make it, so your entire second paragraph really has no place in this discussion.

I still don't see the point you are making about the African famine. Are you trying to say that god provided clear answers to the 349 applicants during a time when everyone around them was losing their homes and jobs?? What exactly was this clear answer that they were too "blind" to see?

You brought up healthcare in your last post as if your job with healthcare was the holy grail. Why do you keep bringing it up, so you got a job, who cares, I also have a well paying job. I don't attribute it all to God, I contributed, I worked hard to get my degrees and this job. I co-operated with the graces God sent my way.

I fail to see what your getting the job has to do with faith or lack of it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Did I say I was speaking for Hindus and Buddhists? I am talking about faith. It comes in several flavours and none of them can be explained fully, that is why it is called faith. Faith has been explained to you by others here but you are not satisfied with the answers.

Here's what you said,

Faith regardless of whether it is Hinduism, Buddhism etc cannot be quantified or explained fully. Otherwise it would not be faith.

You're implying that I will never speak to a Hindu or Buddhist who can fully explain their faith. So, yes, you were speaking for two entire religions.

Again, I'm going to disagree that faith cannot be "explained fully". I happen to think its quite easy to explain and understand.

Who here explained "faith" to me? I hope you're not referring to Raze as I'm almost certain he would disagree. Raze and I had a discussion regarding faith in another thread, but he never explained it beyond the KJV definition of the word. When I showed him how that definition is illogical, he gave up by proclaiming that I didn't have any faith so I didn't understand it. As I've already explained, that is an ad hominem and a "thought terminating cliche"...basically a "cop out" if you don't care to look up those terms.

If you're really interested in what was said, I can refer you to the thread, the page number, and the post number where that discussion begins. If you'll take my word for it though, he never actually explains what faith is.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You brought up healthcare in your last post as if your job with healthcare was the holy grail. Why do you keep bringing it up, so you got a job, who cares, I also have a well paying job. I don't attribute it all to God, I contributed, I worked hard to get my degrees and this job. I co-operated with the graces God sent my way.

I fail to see what your getting the job has to do with faith or lack of it.

It doesn't have anything to do with faith, it has to do with prayer. I suggest you go back and reread the OP, it has nothing to do with faith, everything to do with prayer.

You suggested that those who pray for what they WANT get ignored but those who pray for what they NEED sometimes get answered. I brought up health insurance and the good pay because over here those things are a NEED. Therefore, those who were praying for the job were in fact praying for a NEED, not a WANT.
That's great that where you live healthcare isn't a need, but over here in the US it certainly is.

 

[crispyfry]

I once believed in prayer, but for what I don't understand that it works for some people and others won't work.

I know one baptist pastor who had a son who is a drug user being rehabilitated for it got well, soon after he was back on his old ways - used the bad stuff again. I would expect that prayer would help his son to get well from addiction through prayer. I don't know why prayer won't work when you need the most.

I agree with Ana's statement.

 

[LOCO]

I once believed in prayer, but for what I don't understand that it works for some people and others won't work.

I know one baptist pastor who had a son who is a drug user being rehabilitated for it got well, soon after he was back on his old ways - used the bad stuff again. I would expect that prayer would help his son to get well from addiction through prayer. I don't know why prayer won't work when you need the most.

I agree with Ana's statement.

He should have been seeking professional help at Rehab clinics as well as attending support groups for years as addicts can relapse at any time.

I have a Baptist friend who wrongly thinks praying will cure her of her gambling addiction. I told her she needs to seek professional help, not surprisingly she has gambled all her savings away. That is what addiction does to people.

We all have bad behaviours that we lapse back into. Don't be too harsh on an addict struggling. No Christian believes that just because we are Christians we will never have struggles.

I also am aware of of people who have been cured of an incurable illness through prayer.