Do We Need Free-Will to be Self Conscious?

[stauron]

So we are treating trees as sentient beings now are we? That doesn't smack of a logical way to argue about free will to me

Ok, since no one wants to jump in and defend this mythical free will, I will address some of the comments from the peanut gallery.

The smack of logic is coming from scripture. Men are not described in a flattering way. It would be instructive for you to do some research on the use of trees and other less flattering objects to describe men.

Just in Matt 7 they are compared to dogs, swine and trees. In Romans they are compared to clay. We have sheep, goats, and any number of other comparisons. If you can find one of them that is a "nice" comparison then let me know.

So let's look at the tree thing a little more.

6:43 “For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, 6:44 for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thorns, nor are grapes picked from brambles. 6:45 The good person out of the good treasury of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasury produces evil, for his mouth speaks from what fills his heart.

Good and evil come from the heart. Evil hearts (described as the bad or diseased trees) produce evil. And the good produce good. So any of you subscribing to the "free" will theory here is your challenge:

How would a good tree become bad? How would the bad tree become good?

If the evil person has only the evil treasury to draw from, where does the first good come from? It has to start outside of the heart/tree. The nature must be changed first or the rest is in vain. So AFTER the heart is changed then good comes. Where is your freedom now?

If you would like to provide a verse that describes 'free' will we may be able to have a discussion. Every verse that talks about the nature of man and the ability of man shows that man is bound by his nature and not free.

 

[Imblessed]

So let's look at the tree thing a little more.

Good and evil come from the heart. Evil hearts (described as the bad or diseased trees) produce evil. And the good produce good. So any of you subscribing to the "free" will theory here is your challenge:

How would a good tree become bad? How would the bad tree become good?

If the evil person has only the evil treasury to draw from, where does the first good come from? It has to start outside of the heart/tree. The nature must be changed first or the rest is in vain. So AFTER the heart is changed then good comes. Where is your freedom now?

Stauron!!

 

[stauron]

So we are treating trees as sentient beings now are we? That doesn't smack of a logical way to argue about free will to me

So are you going to actually have a discussion or are you just doing drive by's with sound bites?