Do we have free-will?

[heymikey80]

Let's start with a definitions of what "free" will is:

The freedom to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.- Webster's ninth new collegiate dictionary.

Is this the definition we're working with? Because I don't see the conclusions emerging from this definition, but from presumptions about determinism and libertarianism. The presumptions aren't valid. So the conclusions aren't either.

Most non-libertarian views are compatibilistic, too.

 

[Noxot]

A long time ago. Eph 1:4 "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world ..."

Sounds like, "Why then does he still find fault? For who resists His will?" Romans 9:19. I would think Paul's answer would suffice for being the Scriptural answer to this question.

Intriguing. It's said in response to people who are essentially asserting what's asserted in your second sentence.

Paul said more, as Romans 9:21-24 actually says. It's not slander to repeat what God's words said as God's words.

well if the spirit in which words are spoken are always seen so clearly, then I could agree that the Word of God is an easy book to understand. but then it would start to break apart my faith that the Word of God is really from the Most High, since even a human could come up with a book that is simple (simple as in, not of the things of God), since they do it all the time. but faith has taken me to a place that sees that it takes Wisdom to write what is in the bible. I really do not know what other conclusion to draw if the spirit in a person does not count for the way God reacts to a person but if God judges people by merely external words and not their inward movings then Jesus Christ does not practice what He preaches. words contain spirit and soul behind them, I think that is pretty clear for anyone who believes what the bible says.

if anyone does not understand the inward functionings of a question or answer then that person will not understand what is being said. then that person can easily use a scripture to refute someone and condemn them without knowing their inward functions and movements, but it will not be justice at all if you can not see what to judge. or that person could give an answer that is not seemly, as the bible says, "learn how to give an answer". and I think this is a huge problem with most people, including myself. but I still won't be able to be happy and count myself of move with the Spirit of God, nor will I be able to describe what it means when it is written sort of like "that the Spirit of God blows where it wants".

but I think a main problem with the evil spirit of religion is that a lot of those who are chained by it do not look at the heart of man but rather they judge by external appearances. and I think by trying to destroy the idea that we do not have free will is the workings of an evil spirit and not of the Spirit of God.

but I think it is a very good point if someone agrees that we must consider that evil and good angels help to move us in evil or good.

 

[heymikey80]

Well, here's the basic issue for me. If the inward functionings -- linguistically we call them intensionality, intentionality, connotation, and motive. of a question doesn't match the inward functionings of such questions in Scripture, then we can safely represent the position itself as non-Scriptural. If they do match up, then Scripture informs that view: that is, Scripture responds to the view as it states. If it agrees with the Scriptural view, then the view escapes Scripture's negative judgment of the view.

 

[Rick Otto]

Man(you) has free will to make choices within the boundaries that God set for Mankind.

Choosing to be born again is done by free will.

God made salvation available through Jesus and it is up to whosoever wills to receive it.

Whosoever wills not can reject it.

Then salvation comes down to our own willpower.
Jesus didn't save us, He only made it possible for us to save ourselves by willpower. Isn't that what you are essentialy saying?

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Noxot; so when did God start picking who to save and who to burn in hell without considering the persons heart?

Probably never w/out total consideration of every consideration to be had, Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperatelywicked: who can know it?
aside, the time He elected upon whom to visit saving grace is revealed in Eph1:4

because if we are all born in sin then why is God unfair and choose to save some sinful people but not others?

He tells us why in Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
[24] Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
[25] As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
[26] And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
[27] Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved;

 

[Rick Otto]

faith is only the beginning. Love is the end. do those things come from your heart or not? if they do not dwell in the heart then I wonder how people think that they are saved?

I do not proclaim to be good. my actions have shown that I am more evil than good. beginning of time? well good luck in understanding that, since we can not even comprehend how gravity works. and we can not even count how many living creatures exist.

go ahead and quote scriptures, you will have one view, I will have another and it would not be hard at all to find 6 other people with a different view from our views.

Love is also the beginning Without it, none would receive mercy.
I think it is possible for many of us to agree on these basic & very important considerations. It does my heart good to see people interested even if they. don't agree

 

[Optimax]

Then salvation comes down to our own willpower.
Jesus didn't save us, He only made it possible for us to save ourselves by willpower. Isn't that what you are essentialy saying?

Willpower? No!

If by willpower I would have to have power in myself to bring about my own redemption by the power of my own will without any outside help.

Jesus did the redemptive work for me.

Then He told me through His Word that by His Blood I can enter into it if I would like to.

I liked to and decided to.

I could have liked not to and decided not to.

The will is important in the transaction but my will did not make it possible.

Salvation and damnation was put on the table by the sacrifice of Jesus in my place and I not being totally dumb choose to receive what he had done for me.

I "walked" up to the table and said "I choose life(salvation)!

 

[Rick Otto]

Willpower? No!

If by willpower I would have to have power in myself to bring about my own redemption by the power of my own will without any outside help.

Jesus did the redemptive work for me.

Then He told me through His Word that by His Blood I can enter into it if I would like to.

I liked to and decided to.

I could have liked not to and decided not to.

The will is important in the transaction but my will did not make it possible.

Salvation and damnation was put on the table by the sacrifice of Jesus in my place and I not being totally dumb choose to receive what he had done for me.

I "walked" up to the table and said "I choose life(salvation)!

In that scenario, the will is so important that without it, salvation doesn't happen.
You have posted a "no dummies allowed" sign on heaven's gate so to speak.
And if Jesus died for even the sins of dummies, why should they have to pay again, regardless of what their will decides it likes?
The free will myth is way too problematic & bestows credit for salvation at least in part, on man's will for my taste, Optimax.If my salvation is dependant on my will, I may as well hang it up.
If it requires me not to be dumb, I'll never be smart enough.

 

[Philothei]

In that scenario, the will is so important that without it, salvation doesn't happen.
You have posted a "no dummies allowed" sign on heaven's gate so to speak.
And if Jesus died for even the sins of dummies, why should they have to pay again, regardless of what their will decides it likes?
The free will myth is way too problematic & bestows credit for salvation at least in part, on man's will for my taste, Optimax.If my salvation is dependant on my will, I may as well hang it up.
If it requires me not to be dumb, I'll never be smart enough.

Why call it a myth? How much prove we have to the opposite? You do not have to be "smart" to be using your free will You decided to be a christian then you are using your free will... You cannot be saved without God's grace for sure but you can decide to morrow to be a buddist just the same. That does not mean that you cannot again decide to be a Christian again either... Why would God would want you to be a buddist and again a Christian? IMHO it just does not make sense that God would want us to be drawn to Him one day and then he would decide to ditch us the next....

 

[Harry3142]

Our salvation doesn't originate with willpower. That is merely an extension of intellectualization. Instead, our salvation comes from what we accept in a heartfelt manner:

Moses decribes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) "or 'Who will descend into the deep?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile - the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

There are those who state that this passage is only the first step on a journey to salvation that may take many years. But in each and every case where I have heard that argument against the finality of this passage, I have also heard that the person must become absolutely obedient to the leaders of that particular denomination or sect in order to eventually earn salvation. That is neither salvation by grace nor salvation by works; it's 'salvation on a stick'. No matter what the person does, there's always something else that must be done in order to complete the work of salvation.

 

[Jipsah]

If God knows the future, then nothing I do will change His mind.

Huh? Dunno what that means.

Does this means that free-will doesn't play a role in our life, or is it?

Do you sin? OK, that's a rhetorical question, of course you sin, as do we all. Does God make us sin? No, He does not. He doesn't even want us to sin, ever. So every ime we sin, it's a graphic demonstration of our Free Will.

Don't expect Free Will to earn you eternal life, though.

 

[cubinity]

When Jesus knocked on my door, it was His choice to do so, not mine.
When I chose to answer, that was my choice, which He allowed me to make.
The good He brought in was His to bring, not mine to take.
When He gave it to me, I received it with thanksgiving.
In receiving the good Jesus brought into my life, my destiny was changed forever.
The old was dead, and the new was born.
This is the story the Bible gives me, and it is the one I believe.
It is a story about both destiny and free-will.
It is a story about the choices God made, and the choices I made as well.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Jipsah;Huh? Dunno what that means.

It means the future is defined & so therefore is your part in it.
Your free choices are predetermined by causes, all of them leading back to the first one.

Do you sin? OK, that's a rhetorical question, of course you sin, as do we all. Does God make us sin? No, He does not. He doesn't even want us to sin, ever. So every ime we sin, it's a graphic demonstration of our Free Will.

God doesn't have to make us sin, we make ourselves, but who let the serpent loose? God is happening to us, we are not happening to God.
Sin is an exercise of a sin bound will, not a free will.
A will free of sin is bound to God.
Ergo, no free will.

Don't expect Free Will to earn you eternal life, though.[/quote]

 

[Jipsah]

Sin is an exercise of a sin bound will, not a free will.

Just so, but it's "free" to act contrary to God's will, which is, I think, what the OP was driving at.

A will free of sin is bound to God. Ergo, no free will.

Yep. But I reckon that's going beyond what the OP was ready to grasp.

 

[Philothei]

When Jesus knocked on my door, it was His choice to do so, not mine.
When I chose to answer, that was my choice, which He allowed me to make.
The good He brought in was His to bring, not mine to take.
When He gave it to me, I received it with thanksgiving.
In receiving the good Jesus brought into my life, my destiny was changed forever.
The old was dead, and the new was born.
This is the story the Bible gives me, and it is the one I believe.
It is a story about both destiny and free-will.
It is a story about the choices God made, and the choices I made as well.

Christ knocks at everyone's door or then Christ would be "discriminating" to some only...but he says :there is no Jew, Greek, woman or man...so if God was partial He would not be God
You sure did answer and that is great. Some do not open that door for years at a time...or they slum it shut and they re-open it again later on...

Then there is synergy. God gives and man recieves. There is struggle in our part as we are not of the same nature of God and most times we do not fully trust God when we are in the recieving part IMHO. Remember the "stuggle with God" theme in the OT? Remember Jonas who t ried to escape God? Our inability to accept Him is our downfall. God calls and humanity responds. Christ gaves us the grace to be saved without God there is no salvation we need to accept the gift He offers us otherwise it is indeed useless...

 

[cubinity]

Christ knocks at everyone's door or then Christ would be "discriminating" to some only...but he says :there is no Jew, Greek, woman or man...so if God was partial He would not be God
You sure did answer and that is great. Some do not open that door for years at a time...or they slum it shut and they re-open it again later on...

Then there is synergy. God gives and man recieves. There is struggle in our part as we are not of the same nature of God and most times we do not fully trust God when we are in the recieving part IMHO. Remember the "stuggle with God" theme in the OT? Remember Jonas who t ried to escape God? Our inability to accept Him is our downfall. God calls and humanity responds. Christ gaves us the grace to be saved without God there is no salvation we need to accept the gift He offers us otherwise it is indeed useless...

 

[heymikey80]

Nobody's said two parties aren't acting, the issue is which is an effective cause. It's God, it's not us. We're not effective; God is.

Free will has numerous problems of consistency across the spectrum of religion and philosophy.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

If God knows the future, then nothing I do will change His mind. Does this means that free-will doesn't play a role in our life, or is it? Why wouldn't it be? I just don't understand. I know I have a free-will. I am here because i choose to be here. Just because God knows the future, what does have to do with me having free-will? So where is the error in this logic that we dont have free-will?

First break the terms up

Freedom = are you talking about freedom that is from something . or freedom that just is as Love/God just is?

Will = What is will? does your will tend toward what freedom is? is it possible in this world?

Freedom is a place where you can explore infinite possibilities without hurting others . such an environment does not exist in this world because our desires are corrupted with selfishness .. if even a little in some and more in others .. we all are not free .. because we all are not free . Freedom just is ..

and if you can just be .. as love just is .. then maybe you'll understand freedom .. then understand whether free will is indeed possible .

 

[cubinity]

Nobody's said two parties aren't acting, the issue is which is an effective cause. It's God, it's not us. We're not effective; God is.

Free will has numerous problems of consistency across the spectrum of religion and philosophy.

So, what you are arguing then is the we don't have effective will.
That's fine, but this dialogue seems to be about whether or not our wills are free, not whether or not, being free, they are effective.

 

[heymikey80]

So, what you are arguing then is the we don't have effective will.
That's fine, but this dialogue seems to be about whether or not our wills are free, not whether or not, being free, they are effective.

We don't have a will that can bring salvation about, no. It's not in your capacity, and it's an incapacity of will, not an incapacity to decide.

As you've pointed out, so you must realize, the dialogue is limited, and the comment is limited.

The question of freedom has been tripartite for centuries, and so the question and its answers are ambiguous until the concept of free will is better defined.

For those who view free will as the ability to do what you want, Calvin has already agreed with that view. And our wills are all sinful, so herein is the highway to Hell.