Do we have free will?

[SamTP77]

My original post:

I have to admit I am intrigued with this discussion on free will and I thought I would ask you what are your thoughts on how free are you to reply to this post? You are being presented with a choice, and you are totally free to choose. You could respond to this post or not and I have no idea how likely you are to respond either way. You could or you couldn't who knows what chance there is that you will or you won't?

My following attempt at an intelligent response will be in red.

I would like you to define "free" for purposes of this question. Free from what?

I don't know how to use the quote function and I hope you will forgive me for not learning how to use it like you folks do. I hope you find this communication style satisfactory.

What I mean by free is that we own our choice, it wasn't the government's choice or my Mom's that I engage in a discussion on free will. I believe it was totally up to us to talk about free will and form our own opinions.



I also would like to point out - for the sake of clarity in this discussion - that freedom to exert your will is something completely different than the freedom of the will ("free will").
Furthermore I want to repeat what I have said earlier in this thread: If my will is free I am not.

I like learning new things and finding other philosophical points of views towards free will and how to think about our consciousness. That being said, it appears you make a distinction between exerting your will or the will exerting you it sounds like? Very interesting. So I like to believe that I own my will my choices are mine to make and it is I who controls my will. I believe to me free will means only I control my will in the sense that when I make a decision it truly was up to me because I am free to make a choice on my own, for instance engaging in a discussion on free will with friendly people who are not rude, and know how to get along with people, which I appreciate a lot, you bet.

To at least try to answer your question: I can´t even tell whether I was free to will or not will to respond. I wouldn´t know how to tell the difference between my will being determined and being free (random). I did respond, and I have no clue what "I could have not responded" actually means.

If you can engage in a discussion that means you are able to engage in a discussion about free will with me, which is true. So a better word to use is will you engage in a discussion about free will with me, I shouldn't have used can or could or able, it should be will.


I´m not at all sure that I am free in this matter, but I am sure that I am not "totally free".
E.g. an important factor that determines my actions is my will - and my will has been shaped by countless factors that were and are not within my control or making.

The same can be said about the apple on the tree: It will fall off the tree or it won´t, and I have no idea how likely it is to fall or not to fall.

That is an interesting idea, do you believe we have as much free will as rocks and rivers? Meaning their entire direction in life has been carved out by natural processes and we are the same? Or do you mean you can change the direction in your life by exerting your will as opposed to like your will just pulling your strings for example?

 

[quatona]

I would like you to define "free" for purposes of this question. Free from what?

I don't know how to use the quote function and I hope you will forgive me for not learning how to use it like you folks do. I hope you find this communication style satisfactory.

I really wish you´d choose to will to learn it and use your freedom to exert this will , because the way you do it now is a bit troublesome for me: When I press the reply button, your responses don´t even show up.

What I mean by free is that we own our choice, it wasn't the government's choice or my Mom's that I engage in a discussion on free will.

I also don´t think that it was your mother´s or the government´s choice.
However, when we discuss "choice" on a philosophical level (as opposed to the societal level) the question is not really "Whose choice was it?", but "Is there such a thing as choice, in the first place?" Discussing whose choice it was would be putting the cart before the horse.

I believe it was totally up to us to talk about free will and form our own opinions.

I understand that this is your opinion. What I would be interested in is: Other than simply believing it (which is your unquestioned prerogative but doesn´t offer much space for discussion) do you have anything that evidences or supports the accuracy of this opinion?

I like learning new things and finding other philosophical points of views towards free will and how to think about our consciousness. That being said, it appears you make a distinction between exerting your will or the will exerting you it sounds like?

Well, in a way I think that is an interesting way of putting it, but that´s only one part of what I meant to say.
The other was: There is a distinction between being free to will whatever I will to will, and the freedom to do that which I will.
To give an example: Assuming for a moment that I am free to will whatever I will to will, I would be totally free to will to spread wings and fly. However, I am not free to do that.

Very interesting. So I like to believe that I own my will my choices are mine to make and it is I who controls my will.

Unfortunately this results in an infinite regression, though: If you control what you will and don´t will, what controls your will to control your will etc.?

I believe to me free will means only I control my will in the sense that when I make a decision it truly was up to me because I am free to make a choice on my own, for instance engaging in a discussion on free will with friendly people who are not rude, and know how to get along with people, which I appreciate a lot, you bet.

So you have chosen to will to appreciate friendly people who you get along with over hostile people you don´t get along with is a result of your will, and you could arbitrarily and immediately choose to change that will and instead appreciate a hostile discussion over a friendly one? Or isn´t it more like this is what find yourself appreciating and willing without having control over that preference?

If you can engage in a discussion that means you are able to engage in a discussion about free will with me, which is true.

...and whenever someone does not engage in a discussion with me, I am assuming that he was not able to - at least at that point in time.

So a better word to use is will you engage in a discussion about free will with me, I shouldn't have used can or could or able, it should be will.

Yes, the fact that someone engages in a discussion with me is a safe indication that he wills to do so. However, this doesn´t seem to allow any conclusion as to whether he was free to choose to will to engage in the discussion. He simply did, and for all practical purposes this information is sufficient for me.

That is an interesting idea, do you believe we have as much free will as rocks and rivers?

Yes.

Meaning their entire direction in life has been carved out by natural processes and we are the same?

Not necessarily by "natural" processes. I am not really making any claim what sort of processes these were - if I were to believe in "supernatural" processes (whatever that might mean) I would also include them.

Or do you mean you can change the direction in your life by exerting your will as opposed to like your will just pulling your strings for example?

I don´t know what "change the direction of my life" means. It seems to presume that there is a default direction which I then might be able to change. I don´t think there is such. Life unfolds as it is determined to unfold, and this certainly includes processes/changes (even changes in my will) that are determined themselves. Which does not keep me from premeditating upon future changes - simply because these premeditations are also determined.

 

[Greg1234]

Okkkay, but this doesn't address my question as to how you came up with the definition of free will as "the ability of the will to divert from the will of the creator." All you've said is that will---and not even "free will"---is synonymous with desire. And that you believe in free will, which I take to mean the freedom to desire.

Because thats the only way. If we are created beings, then controlled will would be the inherited sharing of the desire of the creator.