Do those believing in “grace only” fear the Lord?

[BCsenior]

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IMO, this resolves the conflict amongst all the NT verses
concerning eternal security, i.e. OSAS ...vs… NO OSAS:
True saving belief = enduring faith-trust-obedience
Those who “follow” Jesus “faithfully” are those who love
Him and who are “obedient” to His commandments!
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[His student]

Do those believing in “grace only without accountability” fear the Lord

I've been a Christian for over 60 years now. Many of them have been in a "leadership" or teaching role.

I've met, talked with and even debated a great many Christians of various persuasions.

But in all my years I have never met a Christian who believed in "grace without accountability".

I suppose I may have led a more sheltered life than you. But I don't think so.

Therefore I deem the premise of your OP to be a straw man and you are likely someone with an agenda against the teaching of eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I suppose I may have led a more sheltered life than you. But I don't think so.

Therefore I deem the premise of your OP to be a straw man and you are likely someone with an agenda against the teaching of eternal security.

You, sir, hit the nail squarely on the head!!

 

[BCsenior]

I have never met a Christian
who believed in "grace without accountability". ... you are likely someone with an agenda against
the teaching of eternal security.

You should really explain your version of
accountability ... but if I read you correctly, there are many of those in red (hyper-grace people) here!

Yes, of course, I have that agenda ... except those
BACs who are living righteously before the Lord
can indeed have lots of eternal security.

But, how many in today's Laodicean churches
are practicing righteousness, obeying Jesus'
commandments, being led by the Spirit, etc.?

 

[His student]

You should really explain your version of accountability ...

You're the one who used the catch all word accountability. Perhaps you could tell us what you mean by accountability - although I think I know and I'll almost undoubtedly tell you what I think it is shortly.

But, since you asked, my "version of accountability" includes everything from dropping dead for lying about their giving, to sickness from not discerning the body and blood of the Lord, to demonic oppression of various kinds, to unanswered prayers, to lack of fellowship, and many other things I don't want to take the time to name for someone who misrepresents the beliefs of his brothers and sisters---- and yes - it includes loss of rewards. In short - I believe that every man, woman or child who ever lived will give an account for every word and deed they have done while in the flesh - and that includes believers as well as unbelievers.

I would think that every believer would agree with that - and, as I told you, I don't know of any believers in eternal security who say otherwise.

... but if I read you correctly, there are many of those in red (hyper-grace people) here!

I have no idea if you read me correctly. But I don't know anyone here who believes in grace with no accountability.

I think that you only think of accountability for our failure to obey the Lord in this life as burning for eternity in the fires of Hell. That is not only wrong it shows a distinct lack of knowledge as to how and why we are saved in the first place.

Talk about someone failing to discern the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

Yes, of course, I have that agenda ... except those
BACs who are living righteously before the Lord
can indeed have lots of eternal security.

One of the ways we know we are saved is that we have works to show. That includes confession and repentance.

Walking in the Spirit in that way does indeed give one a feeling of assurance - as well it should.

But that is not to say that those works in any way add to our actual security. That security comes from the promises of the Lord among which is to complete the good work He began in us.

But, how many in today's Laodicean churches
are practicing righteousness, obeying Jesus'
commandments, being led by the Spirit, etc.?

I didn't know there were any churches in Laodicea.

But all kidding aside- what do you want me to do - take a survey or something?

Perhaps you have and perhaps you will then give us a number or at least a percentage.

As far as I have seen - many of the most righteous and obedient believers in the world believe they are eternally secure. And - no - they don't do their obedience and works of righteousness in order to "stay saved" or "get saved". That's in your theology and it is being not taught to you by the Holy Spirit.

 

[BCsenior]

... many of the most righteous and obedient believers in the world believe they are eternally secure. And - no - they don't do their obedience and works of righteousness in order to "stay saved" or "get saved". That's in your theology and it is being not taught to you by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit indeed did reveal the many dire
warnings in the NT, and has sent me to point out
these dire warnings to BACs everywhere!
E.G. 2 out of 3 pastors in our church have begun
to see the light ... is your turn coming?

Aaaaah, just noticed I gave up on you in another thread.

 

[His student]

The Holy Spirit indeed did reveal the many dire warnings in the NT, and has sent me to point out
these dire warnings to BACs everywhere!

Your "ministry" then is to cause doubt in the mind of those who are already saved rather than preach the gospel to those in the "churches" who are likely not saved?

I'd ask why you don't spend your time telling those who are not yet born again how to be saved rather than their going through so called Christian liturgies in an attempt to earn salvation. But then that would be a silly question since I gather that you don't know the basics of salvation by grace yourself - let alone be able and willing to preach it to others.

I see that you say of yourself - "still an evangelist". That's rich. I doubt that you'd recognize the simple gospel if it was written on the wall by the hand of God.

............2 out of 3 pastors in our church have begun to see the light ... is your turn coming?.......

I see you've been causing turmoil and fostering division in your local church as well in the Christian Forums. Why doesn't that surprise me?

 

[FreeGrace2]

You should really explain your version of
accountability ... but if I read you correctly, there are many of those in red (hyper-grace people) here!

I'll bet you can't name any. Don't forget, I'm the one who has constantly emphasized God's PAINFUL DISCIPLINE for disobedient believers, up to and including physical death.

Yes, of course, I have that agenda ... except those
BACs who are living righteously before the Lord
can indeed have lots of eternal security.

This statement means that eternal security is based on HOW ONE LIVES. That isn't grace; that's pharisee legalism, which is anti grace.

But of course, the view that salvation can be lost is totally anti grace, all the way.

 

[FreeGrace2]

But, since you asked, my "version of accountability" includes everything from dropping dead for lying about their giving, to sickness from not discerning the body and blood of the Lord, to demonic oppression of various kinds, to unanswered prayers, to lack of fellowship, and many other things I don't want to take the time to name for someone who misrepresents the beliefs of his brothers and sisters---- and yes - it includes loss of rewards. In short - I believe that every man, woman or child who ever lived will give an account for every word and deed they have done while in the flesh - and that includes believers as well as unbelievers.

Amen!!

2 Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Aaaaah, just noticed I gave up on you in another thread.

Kinda like how you have given up on me because you couldn't refute anything I posted, nor could you prove your claims from Scripture.

Move on, folks. Nothing new to see here!

 

[His student]

BCSenior said: "Yes, of course, I have that agenda ... except those
BACs who are living righteously before the Lord can indeed have lots of eternal security."

This statement means that eternal security is based on HOW ONE LIVES. That isn't grace; that's pharisee legalism, which is anti grace. But of course, the view that salvation can be lost is totally anti grace, all the way.

Everyone knows that it is important to obey the Lord and that He will lead us to grow in that way. It pleases Him that we yield to His Lordship.

Yet - as I see it - it "displeases" Him tremendously when we think we are being justified before Him because we are obeying Him and His Word. There is only one way to be justified before Him and that is faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ at Calvary on our behalf.

Some will disagree with my hard stance - but I believe those passages which talk about preaching another gospel and falling from grace because some are trying to add keeping the law to His finished work in order to be fully justified and or to stay saved are also to be applied to Gentiles who preach these "Christ+works" gospels we so often encounter here in the forum.

Romans 2 says: "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them.… "

Most of us here are gentiles and have never had the Law as given to the Jews.

When someone preaches that born again Christians must keep a clear conscience or obey the scriptures exactly or they will not achieve salvation or will lose the salvation they had - they have fallen from grace and are preaching another gospel (which is no gospel at all).

If a person is trying to be justified by keeping the law and slips up in one small area (and who here hasn't?) they might as well have broken every commandment for all the good it will do them to obey most.

Why people can't see that and stop preaching these works salvation messages I just don't know. Pride making them think they can earn salvation I guess.

I would never dogmatically say that such a one will not be saved. That's not my job to do. But I will say that the warning is so strong and to my way of thinking so apropos to those we encounter here in the forum that I feel obligated to warn them of their folly.

They remind me of the ones the Lord told us about who called Him Lord, Lord and named off all the good things they had done in His name as a way to justify themselves before Him. And yet He "never" knew them.

I wonder how many of those folks are here and talking to us about good works salvation in this forum.

I hope and pray that the Lord's grace will include those who preach such a false gospel just as I pray for those in my family who are involved in Mormon and J.W. teaching.

All we can do is warn them of their false beliefs and let the Lord judge them finally.

 

[Halbhh]

"Communication is the problem to be answered" one old popular song went.

People usually misunderstand each other and misguess about what the other meant and thinks and is saying.

I've seen it so often, that I've come to expect it.

The best bet is to be so humble we aren't about protecting our ideas, but are instead about learning from Christ, what He said. Even if we've read through the gospels more than once. It's the key thing, to be silent and listen, expecting to learn. That's humble, and humble is one thing He says we must be, unconditionally.

He said to us Matthew 7:24-27, and no doctrine will ever trump or be more correct than His Word. The assurance He said is the real one.

 

[WordSword]

Brother, I wanted to let you know that I've always admired your consistency in the "Word of Truth" concerning what you believe, and that should be the same for all Bible students, because God will not let us go ignorant of His truths when pursuing them wholeheartedly.

If you mean "accountability" as pertaining to the desire to live in obedience to God after rebirth I agree. But this type of accountability will be what one reborn puts above everything--putting Him first. If this "desire" and doing" (Phil 2:13) does not become manifested they probably aren't reborn, and this type of accountability is not even an issue with the unregenerate.

Of course, I would have to disagree if your relating accountability to our receiving and retaining our rebirth, because this type is addressed only by the efficacy of the Lord Jesus' expiation for our sin nature. It would be a frightful thing to put yourself in the hands of the living Self!

Love you much BCS, and God's blessings to your Family!

 

[BCsenior]

If you mean "accountability" as pertaining to the desire to live in obedience to God after rebirth I agree. But this type of accountability will be what one reborn puts above everything--putting Him first. If this "desire" and doing" (Phil 2:13) does not become manifested they probably aren't reborn, and this type of accountability is not even an issue with the unregenerate.
Of course, I would have to disagree if your relating accountability to our receiving and retaining our rebirth ...

So, all of those people in churches who are living in
habitual (unrepentant) sin are NOT born-again?

Sorry, I definitely believe that the many dire warnings
in the NT have been placed there for the express
purpose of keeping all of the BACs in a state of grace,
i.e. in a state of righteousness (in God's eyes).

Yes, there are 20 or so dire warnings in the NT
re: the possibility of losing salvation.

How about considering a new favorite of mine:
1 John 3:7-10 ...
Children of the devil do not practice righteousness!
Children of the devil do not love their brothers/sisters!

Blessings to you and your family also!

 

[FreeGrace2]

Sorry, I definitely believe that the many dire warnings
in the NT have been placed there for the express
purpose of keeping all of the BACs in a state of grace,

How interesting. The notion that God uses the FEAR of losing salvation or FEAR of hell to keep believers in a "state of grace". How novel. And twisted.

Fear of hell as a motivator for behaving is the exact opposite of grace.

Yes, there are 20 or so dire warnings in the NT
re: the possibility of losing salvation.

There are NOT ANY verses that plainly state that salvation can be lost. One must assume or presume that verses mean that, since they don't directly say that.

How about considering a new favorite of mine:
1 John 3:7-10 ...
Children of the devil do not practice righteousness!
Children of the devil do not love their brothers/sisters!

Yep. No where in these verses do we find anything close to "lose salvation".

And, Jesus was clear about those He gives eternal life, which is when they believe in Him (John 5:24,, 6:47); they shall never perish (John 10:28).

Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS to recipients of eternal life for never perishing.

They will NEVER PERISH on the single basis of having been given eternal life.

 

[WordSword]

So, all of those people in churches who are living in habitual (unrepentant) sin are NOT born-again?

I believe most who attend a Bible-studying church (many now do not have Bible study in church but in homes) are genuine, but there always has been and will be false-professing people (Act 20:29); and the longer time continues, the more there will be.

Sorry, I definitely believe that the many dire warnings in the NT have been placed there for the express
purpose of keeping all of the BACs in a state of grace,
i.e. in a state of righteousness (in God's eyes).

I see the warnings as admonishments for the believers, and as evidence against the unbelievers. They serve to identify one from the other. I believe the Letter to the seven churches in Rev 1 exemplifies this, in that they manifest a mixture of true and false professors, and those in the faith do repent, seeing that it's the Lord Jesus that take them through (1Thes 5:24).

How about considering a new favorite of mine:
1 John 3:7-10 ...
Children of the devil do not practice righteousness!
Children of the devil do not love their brothers/sisters!

Blessings to you and your family also!

I see your understanding here, but to me I see verse 7 identifying that if you're righteous you will manifest it via righteousness; and verse 10 is the same, that those who do not manifest being righteous are "not of God." To me an apostate is one who discontinues a false profession (they inevitably cease), because their "sin will find them out" (Num 32:23).

Blessings!

 

[DM25]

Here we go....

Tell BAC they have to obey God and you'll hear that you're a legalist and some have even told me I'm lost because I'm preaching a "different gospel".

I find this amusing...

If you're obeying out of genuine love for God, and teaching people to obey out of love, you are saved. If you are obeying to get saved, and teaching people that you must obey to get saved, you are lost. Plain and simple, the bible speaks for itself. Either you were never saved, or you are in a season of deception.

 

[DM25]

Yes, they’re afraid they won’t get their fair share of rewards in heaven! lol

Rewards in heaven? Are you forgetting about consequences here on earth? You think God just sits back and allows sin to happen, and then throws his children in hell? If so, you've got a twisted view on what it means to be a parent and who God is. Like any parent, God disciplines his children. If people are continuing to sin, he will give them a whooping and warning (like he did to me). Eventually the sin will lead to deadly consequences, and they will feel spiritually weak. They may get a disease. They may die early. And then yes, last but not least, lose rewards in heaven. I hate how people think those who believe in the gospel think it's a licence to sin or there are no consequences. Truth is we don't boast about not sinning, because we don't need to as we already know we are saved by looking to Christ and not ourselves like you apparently do. These false teachings are unbiblical and come from pride. People take verses way out of context to feed this false teaching.

 

[GodsGrace101]

If you're obeying out of genuine love for God, and teaching people to obey out of love, you are saved. If you are obeying to get saved, and teaching people that you must obey to get saved, you are lost. Plain and simple, the bible speaks for itself. Either you were never saved, or you are in a season of deception.

I think you're talking about works.
Works will not save anyone, as only faith saves.
After we're saved, we are exhorted to good works...the N.T. is clear about this.

I'd say that if we're saved, we certainly must be doing them out of love...I can't imagine something different...

 

[DM25]

I think you're talking about works.
Works will not save anyone, as only faith saves.
After we're saved, we are exhorted to good works...the N.T. is clear about this.

I'd say that if we're saved, we certainly must be doing them out of love...I can't imagine something different...

If you're preaching good works for salvation and to do works to get saved you are lost, simple as that. And by your previous post you made it seemed like you were one of the the people who are like that... You seem to ignore that legalism is a major problem in the church today too. Please repent from that, that post you made before came off as kind of prideful.