Do the Ten Commandments define sin? (nope)

[Dave L]

I would love to see the verse that says that John (who said the love of God is keeping the commandments) is wrong. As for loving God and neighbor, as Yeshua said, ALL the Law hang on them... which means all the law still exists, we can simply categorize them on one or the other great commandment.

I don't think there is a reason to continue this. You have a modern dispensational view of Scripture, I don't and I have no desire to go back to seeing Scripture through that lens... so you can have the last word. Be blessed.

Which commandments? The Two you keep in love for God and others? Or the Ten, now abolished, the wicked kept after being threatened with death?

 

[Ken Rank]

Which commandments? The Two you keep in love for God and others? Or the Ten, now abolished, the wicked kept after being threatened with death?

Oh, so... "do not steal" is now abolished? "Honor your mother and father" is now abolished? I am wicked if I don't covet? I am wicked if I refrain from adultery? That really IS what you just said!

Have a nice day Dave. I don't have time for this.

 

[Dave L]

Oh, so... "do not steal" is now abolished? "Honor your mother and father" is now abolished? I am wicked if I don't covet? I am wicked if I refrain from adultery? That really IS what you just said!

Have a nice day Dave. I don't have time for this.

If you love others, you will not want to steal.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

most of the things on that list could be put under 1 or multiple commandments.

 

[Bluecomet]

If you believe the Ten Commandments define sin, you have left yourself lots of wiggle room.

These sins are not covered under the TCs.
- Pride
- Greed
- Envy
- Wrath, Fits of Rage
- Lust
- Gluttony
- Sloth
- Dishonesty, Deception
- Impurity, Debauchery
- Witchcraft, Sorcery
- Hatred, Indifference
- Jealousy
- Showing Favoritism, Prejudice and Discrimination
- Selfish Ambition, Self-Centeredness
- Withholding Remedy to Human or Animal Needs
- Drunkenness, Drug Abuse
- Fornication, Sodomy, inappropriate behavior with animals
- Discord, Dissensions, Factions
- Unbelief, Disbelief, Agnosticism, Atheism
- Etc.

The definition of sin is not limited to the Ten Commandments.
The definition of sin is not limited to the Books of the Law.
The definition of sin is not limited to the Old Testament.
The definition of sin is not even limited to the entire Bible.

Okay, back to your wiggling.

Galatians 5: 22 - 23
(22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

(23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

 

[Steve Petersen]

If you believe the Ten Commandments define sin, you have left yourself lots of wiggle room.

These sins are not covered under the TCs.
- Pride
- Greed
- Envy
- Wrath, Fits of Rage
- Lust
- Gluttony
- Sloth
- Dishonesty, Deception
- Impurity, Debauchery
- Witchcraft, Sorcery
- Hatred, Indifference
- Jealousy
- Showing Favoritism, Prejudice and Discrimination
- Selfish Ambition, Self-Centeredness
- Withholding Remedy to Human or Animal Needs
- Drunkenness, Drug Abuse
- Fornication, Sodomy, inappropriate behavior with animals
- Discord, Dissensions, Factions
- Unbelief, Disbelief, Agnosticism, Atheism
- Etc.

The definition of sin is not limited to the Ten Commandments.
The definition of sin is not limited to the Books of the Law.
The definition of sin is not limited to the Old Testament.
The definition of sin is not even limited to the entire Bible.

Okay, back to your wiggling.

This illustrates the axiom from Nachmonides that it is possible to be a scoundrel with the permission of the Torah.

Ramban coins the term “a scoundrel with Torah permission” to describe a problematic personality who meets all technical religious requirements while failing to lead a truly spiritual life.​

http://blog.webyeshiva.org/ramban-on-the-torah-the-law-and-beyond/

Sounds like Jesus, doesn't it?

 

[dqhall]

I liked what you wrote until here. The law existed before Mount Sinai, I have a collection of commandments that were spoken before they were written. So there was sin before Sinai... Cain was punished, Abraham was said to have kept all of God's commandments and laws, and so forth. At Sinai, Israel was becoming a nation and thus the Law was written, the judgements and ability to prosecute added, and God's law became the law of the land as far as Israel was concerned. So if sin increased it was only because more people knew the extent of the law because it was now written down and read to them every 7 years. But the commandments predate Sinai.

There were laws against murder, robbery, false witness, assault and adultery written c. 2100 BC in Mesopotamia. The ancient Mesopotamians wrote their records on clay tablets. Some of the clay tablets were fired in kilns. This was long before the Bible was written. 2100 BC happened before the time fundamentalist scholars assigned to Abraham based on Biblical texts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Ur-Nammu

The ancient Egyptians had a code of ethics with some of the ten commandments written on papyrus copies of the Book of the Dead before the Bible was written. Some of these papyri were preserved in desert tombs carved out of rock.

 

[Soyeong]

If you believe the Ten Commandments define sin, you have left yourself lots of wiggle room.

These sins are not covered under the TCs.
- Pride
- Greed
- Envy
- Wrath, Fits of Rage
- Lust
- Gluttony
- Sloth
- Dishonesty, Deception
- Impurity, Debauchery
- Witchcraft, Sorcery
- Hatred, Indifference
- Jealousy
- Showing Favoritism, Prejudice and Discrimination
- Selfish Ambition, Self-Centeredness
- Withholding Remedy to Human or Animal Needs
- Drunkenness, Drug Abuse
- Fornication, Sodomy, inappropriate behavior with animals
- Discord, Dissensions, Factions
- Unbelief, Disbelief, Agnosticism, Atheism
- Etc.

The definition of sin is not limited to the Ten Commandments.
The definition of sin is not limited to the Books of the Law.
The definition of sin is not limited to the Old Testament.
The definition of sin is not even limited to the entire Bible.

Okay, back to your wiggling.

There are more ways to do what is righteous or sinful than the Law specifically prescribes or prohibits. However, the Law is spiritual in that it has always been intended to teach us deeper spiritual principles of which the listed laws are just examples, and which are the character traits of God, such as holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control. If we correctly understand a spiritual principle, then it will lead us to do things that are examples of that principle in accordance with what the Law instructs, even in areas where the Law does not specifically instruct.

Likewise, when we have a character trait, then we will express it through our actions, so when God gives us His righteousness and declares us to be righteous, He is also declaring us to be someone who expresses His righteousness through our actions in accordance with His instructions for how to do that found in His Law. We have not received the righteousness of God in order to hide it under a bushel, but in order to let it shine through our actions. Jesus expressed the character traits of the Father through His actions and what that looked like was in complete accordance with the Mosaic Law, and our sanctification is about being made to be like him, to have and to express the same character traits.

 

[Hazelelponi]

If you believe the Ten Commandments define sin, you have left yourself lots of wiggle room.

These sins are not covered under the TCs.
- Pride
- Greed
- Envy
- Wrath, Fits of Rage
- Lust
- Gluttony
- Sloth
- Dishonesty, Deception
- Impurity, Debauchery
- Witchcraft, Sorcery
- Hatred, Indifference
- Jealousy
- Showing Favoritism, Prejudice and Discrimination
- Selfish Ambition, Self-Centeredness
- Withholding Remedy to Human or Animal Needs
- Drunkenness, Drug Abuse
- Fornication, Sodomy, inappropriate behavior with animals
- Discord, Dissensions, Factions
- Unbelief, Disbelief, Agnosticism, Atheism
- Etc.

The definition of sin is not limited to the Ten Commandments.
The definition of sin is not limited to the Books of the Law.
The definition of sin is not limited to the Old Testament.
The definition of sin is not even limited to the entire Bible.

Okay, back to your wiggling.

Pride = making yourself equal to God, this sin was committed by Lucifer, Nebuchadnezzar and many many more. Pride violates the commandment to not have any any gods before HIM.

Greed - can violate the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself and the commandment not to have any gods before God.

Envy violates the commandment not to covet

Wrath violates the love commandment..

There isn't anything you listed that doesn't violate one of the 10 commandments, if not more than one in some way so your post makes no sense, and the accusation is a falsehood.

 

[MartyF]

The definition of sin is not even limited to the entire Bible.

Mormon part II - the Great Pharisee Saint Steven.

 

[Cheylynn]

Which commandments? The Two you keep in love for God and others? Or the Ten, now abolished, the wicked kept after being threatened with death?

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Matthew 5:17-18 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 5:17-18&version=NKJV

 

[Cheylynn]

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Matthew 5:17-18 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 5:17-18&version=NKJV

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Matthew 5:17-18 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 5:17-18&version=NKJV

 

[Devin P]

If you believe the Ten Commandments define sin, you have left yourself lots of wiggle room.

These sins are not covered under the TCs.
- Pride
- Greed
- Envy
- Wrath, Fits of Rage
- Lust
- Gluttony
- Sloth
- Dishonesty, Deception
- Impurity, Debauchery
- Witchcraft, Sorcery
- Hatred, Indifference
- Jealousy
- Showing Favoritism, Prejudice and Discrimination
- Selfish Ambition, Self-Centeredness
- Withholding Remedy to Human or Animal Needs
- Drunkenness, Drug Abuse
- Fornication, Sodomy, inappropriate behavior with animals
- Discord, Dissensions, Factions
- Unbelief, Disbelief, Agnosticism, Atheism
- Etc.

The definition of sin is not limited to the Ten Commandments.
The definition of sin is not limited to the Books of the Law.
The definition of sin is not limited to the Old Testament.
The definition of sin is not even limited to the entire Bible.

Okay, back to your wiggling.

The book of the law, is the talmud. It's a system of oral traditions passed down from rabbinical jews by mouth until they were pressured enough that they feared their traditions would be lost lest they were written down, and then the book of the law was made, until it was eventually called the talmud.

Sin however, is most definitely described in the bible. The Torah (the first five books of the bible) tells us exactly what is sin.

Even John and Paul both say this:

1 John 3:4 -
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


Romans 7:7 - 7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

The precepts in the Torah, define God. They are God. Jesus is God, and He is the word made flesh. The word of God, is Torah. Everything Jesus taught, perfectly aligned with everything said in Torah. But, because of the Jew's oral traditions, that greatly differ from the words in Torah, they couldn't see this. They were blinded by their own traditions that made the law of God nothing. God is never changing, and what He once saw as abominable, He still does, and always will.

 

[Hillsage]

I liked what you wrote until here. The law existed before Mount Sinai, I have a collection of commandments that were spoken before they were written. So there was sin before Sinai... Cain was punished, Abraham was said to have kept all of God's commandments and laws, and so forth. At Sinai, Israel was becoming a nation and thus the Law was written, the judgements and ability to prosecute added, and God's law became the law of the land as far as Israel was concerned. So if sin increased it was only because more people knew the extent of the law because it was now written down and read to them every 7 years. But the commandments predate Sinai.

I have no problem with your disagreement. When I was writing that very sentence I thought this probably should be changed to the 10 commandments, but I didn't. I think you would agree that the 'law' of God was always written on the hearts of all men.

ROM 2:14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

But as you say, when that which is written on one's heart conflicts with what their sinful natured flesh wants to do....man will always justify his sin...and commit it.

 

[Dave L]

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Matthew 5:17-18 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 5:17-18&version=NKJV

Jesus fulfilled the Law (Ten Commandments = Old Covenant) on the cross and then abolished it replacing it with the New Covenant.

 

[Hank77]

Oh, so... "do not steal" is now abolished? "Honor your mother and father" is now abolished? I am wicked if I don't covet? I am wicked if I refrain from adultery? That really IS what you just said!

Have a nice day Dave. I don't have time for this.

No, you know that isn't what he said.

My view is not a Dispensational view, it's a Covenant view. The OT has been made obsolete, old, faded away. Covenant theology says...

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

 

[Soyeong]

Bravo, I was wondering if anyone would ever point that fact out. From the beginning, any grouping of people governed their families, tribes, countries without the necessity of the Ten commandments to define sin. The Law wasn't given to define sin it was to make trespasses/transgressions increase. And with the increase of trespasses/transgressions scripture says there was an increase in sin following.

Do you agree that the Israelites were given knowledge of what sin is and that the source of that knowledge was God's Law?

In Romans 3:20, God's Law was given in order to give us knowledge of sin, in Romans 7:7, Paul wouldn't have even known what sin is if it weren't for the Law, and in 1 John 3:4, sin is defined as the transgression of the Law, so I don't see how you can deny that it was given to define sin.

In Romans 7, Paul said that Law of God is holy, righteous, and good (7:12), that he wanted to do good (7:13-20), that he delighted in obeying it (7:22), and that he served it with his mind (7:25), but contrasted that with the law of sin, which was working within him to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do (7:13-20), which held him captive (7:23), and which he served with his mind (7:25). In other words, the Law of God is not sinful, but was given to reveal was sin is (7:7), and when our sins are revealed that should lead us to repent and cause sin to decrease, but there is a law of sin that is sinful and stirs up sinful passions to bear fruit unto death (7:5), which causes sin to increase. If you do not distinguish between what Paul said about the Law of God and the law of sin especially in Romans 5-8, then you will end up interpreting verses like 7:22 and 7:5 or 5:20 as saying that Paul delighted in stirring up sin and causing sin to increase, which is nonsense. Rather, 5:20 is speaking about a law that causes sin to increase, so he was speaking about the law of sin, not about the Law of God.

All the jumping around with definitions of what trespass/transgress mean has been amusing to me. They aren't 'little' sins 'big' sins, that's just a Catholic throw back to venial sin and mortal sin. As someone did correctly post in the other thread "Sin is sin", period IMO. Theologians just have never figured it all out yet. They call an iniquity sin and transgression sin, and of course 'sin is sin'. But what does scripture do?

There is a sense that all sin is the same in that it all separates us from God, but there is a sense that all sin is not the same in that they have different penalties. For example penalty for eating an unclean animals is not the same as the penalty for committing murder. Some sins instructed for someone to be expelled from the community while others did not. Furthermore, the same is true with the rewards for obedience not all being the same.

EXO 34:7 keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving

iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation."

If iniquity and transgression were sin then the bible wouldn't be as redundant here as the resident armchair theologians we've read. And as for the root of sin? The bible spells that out in Genesis and the temptations of Jesus and 1John.

Iniquity is intentional sin.

 

[Soyeong]

No, you know that isn't what he said.

My view is not a Dispensational view, it's a Covenant view. The OT has been made obsolete, old, faded away. Covenant theology says...

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Do you really think that those verses are saying that after the see has come we are free to go back to committing transgressions?

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

The Ten Commandments are not as easy as they seem. For example, Matthew 5 expounds quite a bit on what the Sixth and Seventh Commandments really cover.

 

[Hillsage]

Sin however, is most definitely described in the bible. The Torah (the first five books of the bible) tells us exactly what is sin.

Even John and Paul both say this:

1 John 3:4 -
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


Romans 7:7 - 7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Are you saying that these verses prove that transgression is sin, because that is not what I think these scriptures are teaching. It is just confirming you don't get to step three 'sin' without passing step two 'transgression'.