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The name "Father" is the relationship between God and Jesus.Actually, one is not an antichrist to deny the relationship between God and Jesus but one who denies both the Father and the son.
Is the following account an "assumption?"You insert your assumption into the verse. The verse does not say the beast chopped their heads off.
The beast is universally admired, and the whole world is afraid of him during the peak period of his power, for 3.5 years. But his empire is based in Europe, and is not inclusive of the entire world. So as in the case of all antiChristian dictators, there will likely be a few notable Christian leaders whose heads will be chopped off. This has happened throughout history.Do you think you are going to hide some place where God will not find you and give you the mark, or avoid chopping your head off?
I don't believe so, no. The martyrs under the Beast's reign are the 1st to be mentioned after Satan is defeated. However, they may just be a representative sample of those who participate in the "1st Resurrection." Qualification to sit on these thrones is not specifically limited to these martyrs.Only those with their head chopped off, are resurrected. God does not resurrect those with the mark.
According to Revelation 13, one can have the mark, still refuse to worship Satan, and be murdered. That would not be martyrdom if one had the mark. That would just be a physically dead person.Is the following account an "assumption?"
Rev 13.7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them... 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed... 14.9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury... 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus... 20.4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.
The beast is universally admired, and the whole world is afraid of him during the peak period of his power, for 3.5 years. But his empire is based in Europe, and is not inclusive of the entire world. So as in the case of all antiChristian dictators, there will likely be a few notable Christian leaders whose heads will be chopped off. This has happened throughout history.
Many others will suffer economic deprivation, if they are located where trade is dependent upon Europe. But this is not the same thing as having your head chopped off.
Obviously, some Christians endure, which indicates they will survive. They will not just submit to execution, but they will survive to the end.
I don't believe so, no. The martyrs under the Beast's reign are the 1st to be mentioned after Satan is defeated. However, they may just be a representative sample of those who participate in the "1st Resurrection." Qualification to sit on these thrones is not specifically limited to these martyrs.
Evil men don't make martyrs to give them Eternal Life. They make martyrs because they hate them.According to Revelation 13, one can have the mark, still refuse to worship Satan, and be murdered. That would not be martyrdom if one had the mark. That would just be a physically dead person.
No one is said to be killed by the beasts because they refused to accept the mark. Those refusing to accept the mark had to chop of their head. That is the only way to avoid the mark.
"I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the martyrdom of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
These souls did both items. They did not worship the beast nor image. They chopped off their heads as their testimony/martyrdom to Christ. They literally gave their life in death to attain eternal life.
The reason I gave you all of the passages together was to show you that they are all saying the same thing, that Christians resist worshiping the Beast by not accepting his mark. This leads to their martyrdom.Why would the beast want them to gain eternal life?
Not one verse in Revelation 13 says a person was killed for refusing the mark.
No, Satan and the Beast both want to chop the heads of Christians to dispose of their influence. They want to be worshiped in place of God. That's what the "mark" is all about, obtaining worshipers who participate in the Beast Kingdom.Satan is not telling people to either worship him or get your head chopped off so you can live eternally with Jesus Christ. Satan does not want any one to chop off their head, but choose the mark instead. You cannot enjoy Satan's economy nor kingdom if your head is chopped off. Satan would prefer you choose him over Jesus Christ.
We're not doing a study on word origins!The word testimony is the word for martyrdom, not beheaded.
This is an irrational statement. When martyrs choose to die rather than capitulate they are both choosing for martyrdom and becoming martyrs for doing so.They are not martyrs for choosing martyrdom.
Sorry, you've lost me....Being beheaded is the only option to be saved. The choice is between receiving the mark or chopping one's head off. That is their testimony of salvation. That is their martyrdom of salvation. They are not martyrs because they are saved.
That is a reasonable assumption.The reason I gave you all of the passages together was to show you that they are all saying the same thing, that Christians resist worshiping the Beast by not accepting his mark. This leads to their martyrdom.
Many people presume that "protos" can only mean "first in order." But that is not the case; protos equally can mean "first in preeminence."Therefore, to say “first resurrection “ means that there is a resurrection to follow the first. Which means that those who claim there is only one resurrection is false teaching.
The writer of that article thinks the ones “caught up in clouds” are among those of the “first” resurrection.Many people presume that "protos" can only mean "first in order." But that is not the case; protos equally can mean "first in preeminence."
Strong’s Definitions:
πρῶτος prōtos, pro'-tos; contracted superlative of G4253; foremost (in time, place, order or importance):—before, beginning, best, chief(-est), first (of all), former.
More fully discussed here: 78. The "First" Resurrection of Revelation 20:5-6 https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2840-the-“first”-resurrection-of-revelation-205-6/
Well the first birth, first death, and first resurrection are all physical. Obviously, unless one has a physical birth, they cannot even exist.The writer of that article thinks the ones “caught up in clouds” are among those of the “first” resurrection.
I think the ones “caught up in clouds” include both the living and the dead at Christ‘s coming. The ones who are alive, and the ones in the grave.
There is no “caught up in clouds” for those who are alive in Revelation 20. They are separate events. Just as those who suffer a second death is a separate event from the other two.
Agreed; they are two separate events. Both resurrections, and others, are protos resurrections. From the article I cited in my previous post:The writer of that article thinks the ones “caught up in clouds” are among those of the “first” resurrection.
I think the ones “caught up in clouds” include both the living and the dead at Christ‘s coming. The ones who are alive, and the ones in the grave.
There is no “caught up in clouds” for those who are alive in Revelation 20. They are separate events. Just as those who suffer a second death is a separate event from the other two.
Just as the writer says “first” in resurrection does not refer to order. I could also say that “first born” from the dead does not refer to order either, but to preeminence. He says it does refer to order.Agreed; they are two separate events. Both resurrections, and others, are protos resurrections. From the article I cited in my previous post:
" In the context of Revelation 20, the Greek word πρωτη primarily means FIRST (FOREMOST) IN PREEMINENCE, NOT ORDER. This word can be used both ways, so context must determine its meaning. Some people presume it can only mean first in order; and therefore, that these souls shall be the first ones to be raised from the dead. This is incorrect. For earlier in Revelation, verse 1:5, we find that Jesus is called “the πρωτοτοκος/first-born of the dead.” Jesus was the first among all men to be resurrected from the dead with an immortalized body: no one else of the dead was immortalized on that same day or before. Others will also have been resurrected from the dead prior to the raising of these Revelation 20:4 saints, including those of the dead who will have been “caught up in clouds” to Jesus long before the Battle of Armageddon; as also will be the killed and quickly-resurrected Two Witnesses. 1 Thes. 4:14-17; Rev. 11:3ff. "
Yes, the account in Rev 13-19 is pretty clear. The Beast system requires worship, as well as the mark. Those Christians who resist these things are martyred on occasion. Some are able to avoid martyrdom until the coming of the Lord. I think this takes place in the heart of Europe.That is a reasonable assumption.
Your opinion noted.It is the wrong presupposition added into God's Word.
I don't see that at all. The mark takes place before the 2nd Coming, in my view.When the mark is handed out by God, it is after the Second Coming.
Again, my view is that the 42 months of the Beast Empire take place immediately before the 2nd Coming and the 7th Trumpet.After the final harvest gathered by Jesus and the angels. This 42 month period is after the 7th Trumpet has already sounded, and Jesus was made King over all nations as the 7th one world kingdom.
There are always going to be Christians left on earth. 1 Thes 4. Those "raptured" are still alive and remaining.Revelation 13 comes after Revelation 11:15.
There are no Christians on the earth after the 6th Seal.
The trumpets are just symbols announcing various aspects and activities that take place as the Lord's Return approaches. People can become Christians at any time before Armageddon and also following, I believe.No one becomes a Christian during the Trumpets and Thunders.
The final harvest is simply Christ coming back for the deceased saints and for the Christians alive and remaining.During the final harvest souls are removed from the earth and placed in the LOF or are waiting on the sea of glass. No one is hiding out somewhere on the earth.
Those who successfully resisted Antichrist are portrayed as victorious at the Return of Christ. There is no need to "hide out." They will be glorified and immortalized."And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."
These people are not hiding out on the earth.
I disagree. The beheaded are on the sea of glass together with all who have successfully resisted the Beast.They are gathered on this sea of glass having the victory over what is going on down below. But they have a body, and are not standing in judgment, nor waiting to be beheaded.
Those beheaded are judged after the 42 months and after Satan is bound. The beheaded are not waiting on the sea of glass.
These are different ways of describing the same thing. Matt 25 speaks of the judgment to take place at Christ's Coming. He will separate out the wicked in Israel so that the nation may be Saved. It is a representation of the final state of the nation Israel--a time when the nations will go through a final period of probation.Comparing those on the sea of glass to the harvest of Matthew 13 and the judgment of the sheep in Matthew 25, they were already judged and given eternal life, the first resurrection. They were waiting in heaven on this sea of glass way before the 7th Trumpet even sounded. They had the victory over the beast and his image, because they were already redeemed and waiting for the 7th Trumpet to sound.
No, the beheaded are dead during the 42 months of Antichrist's reign.Those beheaded are the redeemed during the 42 months.
The faithful are either dead during the 42 months of Antichrist's reign or resisting/hiding out against his rule. I think the Woman is Israel, who is kept in the land of Israel, symbolically portrayed as a wilderness, as if they are being preserved in Sinai before entering Canaan."And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."
This is the symbolic preservation of Israel still pure without becoming corrupt by the work of world government and Satan. This is in comparison to the harlot that Israel plays as Jerusalem, given to the governmental authority of Satan. But the remnant of faithful Israel are waiting on the sea of glass, redeemed, not hiding out on the earth.
I have no idea what you mean by this?"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
These would be those beheaded. The only reason that Satan is given 42 months is if God in His foreknowledge knows there will be at least 1 beheaded person. But the moment of their redemption from their dead corruptible flesh is when they chop their head off.
Dan 9.27 was fulfilled in 70 AD, in my opinion. The AoD would happen in Jesus' generation, according to Jesus.That is their testimony of Jesus Christ and in keeping of the commands of God. Especially during a time when this is true: Daniel 9:27
They die as martyrs because of their witness to Christ--not to be decontaminated!"and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
Even the alter call of redemption is the abominable act of chopping one's head off. There is no sacrifice nor oblation of sin. One cannot accept by faith and continue to live in sin (become a Christian). They have to be removed from this body of flesh. That is the purpose of being beheaded, not that they were martyred for being a Christian.
I don't believe so. Antichrist is the 8th king after the formation of a 10 nation 7 king Empire.Satan is the 8th King of the 8th Kingdom.
Satan has always had authority, but it is a limited authority that inexorably leads to his judgment. Neither has Jesus given up his authority except the imposition of final judgment before the time. Satan's limited authority will meet Jesus' authority to finally judge him in the future. It will be a 2 stage process, beginning at the 2nd Coming and ending at the end of the Millennium.Satan did not kill Jesus to gain the throne. God granted Satan 42 months of authority for the only reason being; some humans would choose to be beheaded instead of follow Satan's authority.
Those on the sea of glass are the sheep and wheat after Jesus is on the earth with His angels. They are those on the white horses in Revelation 19. How can they be judged after returning on white horses?These are different ways of describing the same thing. Matt 25 speaks of the judgment to take place at Christ's Coming. He will separate out the wicked in Israel so that the nation may be Saved. It is a representation of the final state of the nation Israel--a time when the nations will go through a final period of probation.
This continuing quote from my blog adds more detail, which addresses your point::Just as the writer says “first” in resurrection does not refer to order. I could also say that “first born” from the dead does not refer to order either, but to preeminence. He says it does refer to order.
When the writer says that “first” resurrection does not refer to order, I would disagree.This continuing quote from my blog adds more detail, which addresses your point::
" So the primary meaning here of πρωτη is that Jesus, along with the 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 saints, the Two Witnesses, and the Revelation 20:4 saints, are preeminent in the sense of all together being foremost in status of those who will be resurrected from the dead prior to the Millennial reign of Christ. Because in addition to these, non-believers will also be resurrected from the dead prior to the Millennium. But these will arise unto a very non-preeminent “resurrection of condemnation.” John 5:29; Dan. 12:2; Is. 66:24
" Secondarily, those of the pre-Millennial, πρωτη resurrection will also, taken together as a class of people, be first in the sense of preceding everyone to be raised from the dead after the end of the Millennium. All of the immortalized and glorified pre-Millennial group will be those over whom “the second death [will have] no power.” Whereas some of the post-Millennial group will be those over whom “the second death,” “the lake of fire,” will have power. Others from the Millennium, of the ones having been born during it, will undoubtedly become saints and receive glorifies bodies. "
I use the Scriptures to explain how I understand the "rapture."When you study the details of the rapture in Thessalonians and compare it to the rapture in Corinthians, it appears these scriptures are describing two distinct rapture events for the saints. And if this is true, then what do these two different raptures represent?
In the Bible, similar words and phrases are often used to connect one scripture with another in order to reveal a hidden meaning or prophecy. In other words, scripture interprets scripture; for example, the Word in John 1:1 is revealed in John 1:14. So with this in mind, let us carefully examine the rapture in Thessalonians and Corinthians to see if there are any connected scriptures or stories that will give us deeper insight and understanding for the rapture of the saints.
The basis of the Rapture is the 2nd Coming, of the Coming of the Son of Man, which originates in Dan 7. Having a common origin in Scriptures, I seriously doubt there is any substantial evidence for "different Raptures."
The Son of Man comes down from heaven to establish God's Kingdom on the earth, in the face of Antichrist's opposition, who is called in Dan 7 the "Little Horn." Revelation goes to great lengths to describe this, as if to let all of Christianity know, throughout history, that Antichrists will somewhat prevail until the Kingdom of Christ is actually established. The Gospel will succeed, but opposition will temporarily succeed, as well.
When the Son of Man comes, it will be to bring victory to his suffering saints, gathering them into his Kingdom. Paul sees Christ coming back from heaven, just as he left for heaven. And as Christ ascended into heaven to obtain his glorious new body, so he will call up his saints to give them glorious new bodies, as well, so that they may join him in establishing his Kingdom and in regathering his people into their various nations.
In the Olivet Discourse Jesus speaks primarily of Israel's regathering, because at that time he was still speaking under the era of Law, where Israel was primarily viewed as God's exclusive people. But not long after the Cross, a great outreach began to convert many pagan nations to Christianity. And so, this great regathering, to take place at Christ's Coming, will regather not just Israel but many fallen nations who have fallen away from Christianity, just as Israel did.
I see no "hidden meanings" in these passages?
The Rapture, or calling up of the saints at Christ's Coming, in 1 Thes 4 is the same as the Coming of the Son of Man in Dan 7 and in the Olivet Discourse. So is 1 Cor 15. Both passages focus on Christ's Coming and on the victory of the saints at that time, with particular emphasis on their resurrection and glorification.
1 Thes 4.16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
1 Cor 15.22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.... 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
All of these passages are saying the same things, based on Dan 7, that the Son of Man is Coming from heaven to deliver his saints, to raise them from the dead and to give them immortality and eternal life with God. This will constitute the establishment of God's Kingdom on earth forever. There is nothing secretive about this, and nothing divergent between one passage and another, in my opinion.
Why do you think that the second coming of Jesus must occur around the time of the Feast of Tabernacles?The Second Coming occurs around the time of the Feast of Tabernacles. So this is why there cannot be any so called 'post tribulation rapture'. Since that theology erroneously puts two different feasts together (Jesus coming for the Bride to rapture from the Earth + Jesus returning to Earth with all OT & NT saints) but by calendar they happen at two different seasons of the year.
You are conflating the establishment of the earthly Kingdom with the removal of the saints prior to God's wrath beginning on the earth. These two events do not take place simultaneously, but sequentially. Rapture of the bridal family first, then establishment of the earthly Kingdom later on.The basis of the Rapture is the 2nd Coming, of the Coming of the Son of Man, which originates in Dan 7. Having a common origin in Scriptures, I seriously doubt there is any substantial evidence for "different Raptures."
The Son of Man comes down from heaven to establish God's Kingdom on the earth, in the face of Antichrist's opposition, who is called in Dan 7 the "Little Horn." Revelation goes to great lengths to describe this, as if to let all of Christianity know, throughout history, that Antichrists will somewhat prevail until the Kingdom of Christ is actually established. The Gospel will succeed, but opposition will temporarily succeed, as well.
When the Son of Man comes, it will be to bring victory to his suffering saints, gathering them into his Kingdom. Paul sees Christ coming back from heaven, just as he left for heaven. And as Christ ascended into heaven to obtain his glorious new body, so he will call up his saints to give them glorious new bodies, as well, so that they may join him in establishing his Kingdom and in regathering his people into their various nations.
A common belief, but incorrect. The Olivet Discourse is about the "Parousia" of Christ (verses 3, 27, 37), the same "the Parousia" foretold in the resurrection passages of 1 Cor. 15:23 and 1 Thes. 4:14, and also in 2 Thes. 1.In the Olivet Discourse Jesus speaks primarily of Israel's regathering,
1 Thes. 4, the Olivet Discourse, and 1 Cor. 15 do not mention any earthly "victory of the saints at that time."The Rapture, or calling up of the saints at Christ's Coming, in 1 Thes 4 is the same as the Coming of the Son of Man in Dan 7 and in the Olivet Discourse. So is 1 Cor 15. Both passages focus on Christ's Coming and on the victory of the saints at that time, with particular emphasis on their resurrection and glorification.
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