Do the scriptures reveal there will be two different raptures for the saints?

[RandyPNW]

Just as He has done in the past to judge His people, He will do again. But this time it will be Christ through whom these judgments come.
John, seeing the future, sees the Lamb opening the seals which contain God’s judgments. Everything spoken of after that occurs under Christ supervision.

I can't subscribe to that. For me, all judgment passes through the Word of God, and Christ was the Word made flesh. So this is, for me, a distinction without a difference. All judgments taking place since Christ's 1st coming have taken place through Christ, the Word of God made flesh. If you think any judgment in history takes place apart from Christ you have a bad doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[One God and Father of All]

I can't subscribe to that. For me, all judgment passes through the Word of God, and Christ was the Word made flesh. So this is, for me, a distinction without a difference. All judgments taking place since Christ's 1st coming have taken place through Christ, the Word of God made flesh. If you think any judgment in history takes place apart from Christ you have a bad doctrine of the Trinity.

In order for one to understand the book of Revelation, one has to study the prophets. Prophets like Moses, Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Zechariah etc.
One does not need to study 4th century Christianity up to today.

 

[One God and Father of All]

I can't subscribe to that. For me, all judgment passes through the Word of God, and Christ was the Word made flesh. So this is, for me, a distinction without a difference. All judgments taking place since Christ's 1st coming have taken place through Christ, the Word of God made flesh. If you think any judgment in history takes place apart from Christ you have a bad doctrine of the Trinity.

“Christ” is a name that means “Messiah” . Messiah was the one to come who would restore God’s kingdom on earth. And so he will because God has committed all judgment to him.

 

[RandyPNW]

“Christ” is a name that means “Messiah” . Messiah was the one to come who would restore God’s kingdom on earth. And so he will because God has committed all judgment to him.

Of course--I agree with you. Christ is coming back to establish God's Kingdom on earth. Dan 7 says that--the Son of Man will descend from the clouds with a mandate from the heavenly throne room. It will be just as you've said, by the means of Christ's Coming to earth.

On the other hand, Christ has been judging in the sense of inflicting punishment upon sinners all through the present age, causing men to reap what they sow. And he had also been "judging" the world in this way even before the Word became flesh. Christ was pre-existent as the Divine Word.

But it is also clear that Christ did not come to declare a final verdict on the sins of men until the time for final sentencing. His purpose in coming was to provide a means of escaping a negative verdict against our sins. If we reject that opportunity, there are of course consequences for any determination to continue in sin.

John 5.22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son...
27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man...
30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
8.15 You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16 But if I do judge, my decisions are true, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me.

The Reign of Antichrist is not the final judgment, but only a continuation of the process of wicked men reaping what they've sown. The final judgment begins with Armageddon, when Christ will return to begin final sentencing.

 

[RandyPNW]

In order for one to understand the book of Revelation, one has to study the prophets. Prophets like Moses, Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Zechariah etc.
One does not need to study 4th century Christianity up to today.

If you don't care to have a Western education that's fine with me. Just don't pretend to be an authority on it then.

You will find it difficult to even understand the biblical prophets without having a semblance of education in biblical history. Otherwise, you will have much difficulty.

Really, I don't think you need papers or a formal education--you can be self-educated. But if you think you can declare what the Bible means without studying its background or the works of scholars who've studied it, you're going to be in a tough place.

 

[One God and Father of All]

If you don't care to have a Western education that's fine with me. Just don't pretend to be an authority on it then.

You will find it difficult to even understand the biblical prophets without having a semblance of education in biblical history. Otherwise, you will have much difficulty.

Really, I don't think you need papers or a formal education--you can be self-educated. But if you think you can declare what the Bible means without studying its background or the works of scholars who've studied it, you're going to be in a tough place.

Who do you suppose the 4 living creatures and 24 elders represent?

The comment I posted from the JFB commentary said the 4 living creatures answer to the Cherubims. I agree with that. For one reason, they were placed on the ark which was then placed behind the veil in the Most Holy Place. It is said that Christ passed through that veil as our forerunner. Which means, where Christ has gone, others are to follow. If the 4 living creatures are represented by the cherubims it means they have passed into the Most Holy Place where Christ as their forerunner has gone.
And secondly, as I’ve already mentioned, the old tabernacle, made with hands, was a pattern of the true one not made by hands. The one in heaven. As so, we get the 4 groups of 3 = 4 living creatures, and the division of Priests was 24 = the 24 elders.

i would be interested in how you have decided what they represent.

 

[One God and Father of All]

A door is simply an entrance. When the door in heaven was opened to John, he was invited in to see what the tabernacle, not made with hands, would show him. He was to see the Most Holy Place that‘s behind the veil. The true Most Hloly Place.
What he saw were the Cherubim’s ——The 4 living creatures——the ones who followed Christ behind the veil.

 

[One God and Father of All]

I can add something else. The numbers 4, 7, 12, 24 and 144,000 all represent completeness. 4 groups represent the complete numbers of persons. Although there were 4 groups, there were many persons. just as 24:elders represent the complete number of elders which include all the persons.

 

[RandyPNW]

Who do you suppose the 4 living creatures and 24 elders represent?

The comment I posted from the JFB commentary said the 4 living creatures answer to the Cherubims.

I agree that the 4 living creatures are cherubim. What I don't know is if they relate to the angels hovering over the mercy seat of the Tabernacle. There were only 2 angels in that location--not 4.

I agree with that. For one reason, they were placed on the ark which was then placed behind the veil in the Most Holy Place. It is said that Christ passed through that veil as our forerunner. Which means, where Christ has gone, others are to follow. If the 4 living creatures are represented by the cherubims it means they have passed into the Most Holy Place where Christ as their forerunner has gone.

There term is "cherubim"--not cherubims. I'm not in disagreement with you over the relationship between Christ and the cherubim.

And secondly, as I’ve already mentioned, the old tabernacle, made with hands, was a pattern of the true one not made by hands. The one in heaven. As so, we get the 4 groups of 3 = 4 living creatures, and the division of Priests was 24 = the 24 elders.

i would be interested in how you have decided what they represent.

You seem to have a pretty good handle on it. I don't see any disagreement on this. Cherubim were angels entrusted by God with protecting His holy presence from infiltration by corrupted humans. Christ established a system of Grace by which people could enter into God's holy presence while still corrupted by sin. This had to inform the cherubim of the difference between the redeemed and those not trusted to enter into and remain in God's presence. Though all may experience God's power, not all may enter into His holy presence and remain there. I'm not sure I'm getting this right, but it's an attempt at understanding on my part.

 

[RandyPNW]

I can add something else. The numbers 4, 7, 12, 24 and 144,000 all represent completeness. 4 groups represent the complete numbers of persons. Although there were 4 groups, there were many persons. just as 24:elders represent the complete number of elders which include all the persons.

4 typically represents a stable foundation such as the 4 corners of a table. You will find tables with 4 corners in the Tabernacle. 4 may also represent the 4 directions, north, south, east, and west encompassing the totality of an area or territory.

Symbolism has more of a practical application than is sometimes realized. If I say I have 5 bullet points to make, it may just be a convenient number of points.

But if I say I have a handful of ideas and list them in the number of 5 ideas, then I may allude to the fact I have 5 fingers, representing a literal "handful" of ideas.

When the Bible uses the number "7" it may just be a number of convenience. But more than likely there is some association with the number of days God used to rest after His creation of the universe. It is an allusion to Almighty God as the organizer of worship in association with His created order. It is essential to recognize that cooperation with God requires that we work when He determines the work is needed, and to cease working when the work is no longer needed. It is a matter of working together with God, or cooperating with God.

For whatever reason God organized the development of the nation Israel into 12 tribes initially. The purpose was to reach a single nation. But it required an initial set of 12. This showed God's interest in every aspect of the development of the nation, requiring a certain amount of divine fidelity to each constituent part.

Initially it looked as if God could simply dismiss and replace the nation, as in the Wilderness tests. Moses interceded for the 12 tribes in order to keep them on their original path to become a nation despite their early failures.

So 12 has this connotation. It infers the importance that the original group be present and not displaced by a completely new group. For this reason I reject Replacement Theology.

Doubling the number "12" to "24" may suggest an angelic number. Expanding the number "12" to "12000" may indicate the growth of the tribes into national remnants--not sure. At any rate, numbers can be either literal or symbolic. The context will determine that.

 

[One God and Father of All]

I agree that the 4 living creatures are cherubim. What I don't know is if they relate to the angels hovering over the mercy seat of the Tabernacle. There were only 2 angels in that location--not 4.

There term is "cherubim"--not cherubims. I'm not in disagreement with you over the relationship between Christ and the cherubim.

You seem to have a pretty good handle on it. I don't see any disagreement on this. Cherubim were angels entrusted by God with protecting His holy presence from infiltration by corrupted humans. Christ established a system of Grace by which people could enter into God's holy presence while still corrupted by sin. This had to inform the cherubim of the difference between the redeemed and those not trusted to enter into and remain in God's presence. Though all may experience God's power, not all may enter into His holy presence and remain there. I'm not sure I'm getting this right, but it's an attempt at understanding on my part.

Can you point me to the scripture that says cherubim are angels.

 

[One God and Father of All]

The Cherubim placed at the way into the Garden are not said to be angels. They are representative figures, just like those facing the mercy seat behind the veil.
The purpose of placing the cherubim was to guard the way of the tree of life, which if Adam had eaten would live forever. They were a defense.
So again we see the same theme as having eternal life that the cherubim over the ark facing the throne of God represent. They represent the ones being granted eternal life when one passes behind the veil where Christ, our forerunner, has gone.
It’s also said the way into the garden faced East. And so did the entrance into tabernacle made with hands face East.
I don’t know how much clearer this can be for you All of the facts I’m presenting from the scripture point to the truth.

 

[One God and Father of All]

Another thing said about the four living creatures is that they had different faces. These faces also point to the 4 divisions of the encampment around the tabernacle. Lion, man , ox and eagle. Rev 4
Each encampment had a head. Judah, Reuben, Ephraim, and Dan.
The encampment of Judah is the lion. Gen 49
The encampment of Rueben is a man.
The encampment of Ephraim is ox
The encampment of Dan is eagle.

Each encampment had a standard or banner to symbolize the head of each of the 4 divisions. It is clear that Judah is the lion, but it’s not so clear from scripture regarding the other heads.

Jewish tradition affirms the heads and standards or banners as lion, man, ox, and eagle. The division were situated around the tabernacle as a form of defence.

it all adds up!

 

[RandyPNW]

Can you point me to the scripture that says cherubim are angels.

I'm not sure that cherubim are called angels. Angels is a term used in the Bible of creatures designed by God to be servants who are somewhat similar to man and able to serve men. Cherubim appear to similar preserve God's holy presence from the contamination of human sin.

 

[RandyPNW]

The Cherubim placed at the way into the Garden are not said to be angels. They are representative figures, just like those facing the mercy seat behind the veil.
The purpose of placing the cherubim was to guard the way of the tree of life, which if Adam had eaten would live forever. They were a defense.
So again we see the same theme as having eternal life that the cherubim over the ark facing the throne of God represent. They represent the ones being granted eternal life when one passes behind the veil where Christ, our forerunner, has gone.
It’s also said the way into the garden faced East. And so did the entrance into tabernacle made with hands face East.
I don’t know how much clearer this can be for you All of the facts I’m presenting from the scripture point to the truth.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove? Where are your facts with respect to cherubim representing the "ones being granted eternal life?" We have no disagreement that they guarded access to God's direct presence.

Cherubim cannot be people since they are protecting God's presence against human contamination. But upon further investigation I do think the cherubim were like angels appearing in the form of man. They had 4 faces, however, depicting the character of all Israel, and not just a single man. These faces related to the animals associated with the lead tribes on each side of the Tabernacle.

HERE
This interpretation is justified from the situation of the standards of the several tribes of Israel in the wilderness, (Numbers 2:2; Numbers 2:10; Numbers 2:18; Numbers 2:25,) where Judah, whose standard was a lion, was placed on the east side; Reuben, whose standard was a man, was placed on the south; Ephraim, whose standard was an ox, was placed on the west; and Dan, whose standard was an eagle, was placed on the north side. Here the prophet is supposed to stand westward of the Shechinah, as that was moving eastward: so the ox was first in his view.

Israel was separated from both the Tabernacle and the Holy of Holies, where God's presence rested with the ark of the covenant. So the tension was with this separation between God and Man, with the cherubim guarding against any trespass upon God by Israel. None of the tribes of Israel were allowed access, excepted limited access by virtue of the temple worship, priesthood, and animal sacrifices, along with all of the accompanying regulations and moral requirements.

The 1st animal mentioned was the ox on the West, also called a "cherub." But these creatures had wings, which is not something humans have.

 

[One God and Father of All]

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove? Where are your facts with respect to cherubim representing the "ones being granted eternal life?" We have no disagreement that they guarded access to God's direct presence.

Cherubim cannot be people since they are protecting God's presence against human contamination. But upon further investigation I do think the cherubim were like angels appearing in the form of man. They had 4 faces, however, depicting the character of all Israel, and not just a single man. These faces related to the animals associated with the lead tribes on each side of the Tabernacle.

HERE
This interpretation is justified from the situation of the standards of the several tribes of Israel in the wilderness, (Numbers 2:2; Numbers 2:10; Numbers 2:18; Numbers 2:25,) where Judah, whose standard was a lion, was placed on the east side; Reuben, whose standard was a man, was placed on the south; Ephraim, whose standard was an ox, was placed on the west; and Dan, whose standard was an eagle, was placed on the north side. Here the prophet is supposed to stand westward of the Shechinah, as that was moving eastward: so the ox was first in his view.

Israel was separated from both the Tabernacle and the Holy of Holies, where God's presence rested with the ark of the covenant. So the tension was with this separation between God and Man, with the cherubim guarding against any trespass upon God by Israel. None of the tribes of Israel were allowed access, excepted limited access by virtue of the temple worship, priesthood, and animal sacrifices, along with all of the accompanying regulations and moral requirements.

The facts “as ones being given eternal life” is shown by the fact that Christ is the forerunner into the Most Holy Place. The scripture states that Christ is “to die no more”. so those who pass through the veil as he has also die no more Like their forerunner. And since the cherubim were in the Most Holy place they represent those who die no more.
The text actually says that the cherubim were placed at the east and that there was a flaming sword which turned every way to guard the entrance.
A flaming sword represents judgment. Like a double-edged sword that could turn every way. Which shows that the cherubim and the way to eternal life is protected. It is protected against those who don’t believe And judgment given to those who do.

psa 149:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory;
Let them sing aloud on their beds.
6Let the high praises of God be in their mouth,
And a two-edged sword in their hand,
7To execute vengeance on the nations,
And punishments on the peoples;
8To bind their kings with chains,
And their nobles with fetters of iron;
9To execute on them the written judgment—
This honor have all His saints.
[c]Praise the Lord!

 

[RandyPNW]

The facts “as ones being given eternal life” is shown by the fact that Christ is the forerunner into the Most Holy Place. The scripture states that Christ is “to die no more”. so those who pass through the veil as he has also die no more Like their forerunner. And since the cherubim were in the Most Holy place they represent those who die no more.
The text actually says that the cherubim were placed at the east and that there was a flaming sword which turned every way to guard the entrance.
A flaming sword represents judgment. Like a double-edged sword that could turn every way. Which shows that the cherubim and the way to eternal life is protected. It is protected against those who don’t believe And judgment given to those who do.

psa 149:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory;
Let them sing aloud on their beds.
6Let the high praises of God be in their mouth,
And a two-edged sword in their hand,
7To execute vengeance on the nations,
And punishments on the peoples;
8To bind their kings with chains,
And their nobles with fetters of iron;
9To execute on them the written judgment—
This honor have all His saints.
[c]Praise the Lord!

You say, "And since the cherubim were in the Most Holy place they represent those who die no more."

That is not proof! "Proof" would be a Scriptural statement saying that the cherubim represent those who die no more. That is not being said. Therefore, you are presenting as "proof" something that is *not* proof!

 

[One God and Father of All]

You say, "And since the cherubim were in the Most Holy place they represent those who die no more."

That is not proof! "Proof" would be a Scriptural statement saying that the cherubim represent those who die no more. That is not being said. Therefore, you are presenting as "proof" something that is *not* proof!

Did Christ not pass into the Most Holy place as our forerunner?
Were not the cherubim in the Most Holy place?
Were not the cherubim placed at the east (entrance)where a flaming sword protected the way to eternal life?
Are not the 4 living creatures answering to the cherubim ?
Do not the 24 elders answer to the 24 divisions of priest?
Are believers not to be priests and kings to their God?
Is not the tabernacle of old a pattern of the true tabernacle in heaven?

Perhaps you can prove to me these things to be false as you say.

 

[One God and Father of All]

Prove to me that Christ is not our forerunner who has passed beyond the veil into the Most Holy Place.
Prove to me that the cherubim where not in the Most Holy place.
Prove to me that the cherubim were not placed in the east as being in the garden where eternal life was to be found.
Prove to me that the entrance into the Most Holy did not face the east.
Prove to me that the cherubim are angels as you say.
Prove to me that the cherubim do not answer to the living creatures of Revelation.
Prove to me that the 24 elders do not answer to the 24 divisions of priests.
Prove to me that believers are not to be kings and priests of their God.
Prove to me that the tabernacle of old was not a pattern of the true tabernacle in heaven.

Unless you can prove what you claim to be true you must debunk my claims.

 

[One God and Father of All]

You say, "And since the cherubim were in the Most Holy place they represent those who die no more."

That is not proof! "Proof" would be a Scriptural statement saying that the cherubim represent those who die no more. That is not being said. Therefore, you are presenting as "proof" something that is *not* proof!

The scripture does not speak in plain language. It doesn’t come right out and say that the cherubim are the immortalized saints because it takes having an interest in these things to find them out. It is the glory of kings To find out a matter.