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Do seekers find? Or do only "founders", seek?

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Ben johnson

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NBF said:
By making that statement, you show clearly that you oppose Predestination as a biblical doctrine, and therefore you oppose God's own Word, which unequivocally teaches Predestination.
Not only do I not find "predestined-election" in Scripture, I find plenty of verses about "falling-from-salvation".

I do not "oppose Predestined-Election as a Biblica doctrine" --- I support Scripture, and Scripture opposes Predestined-election.
Maybe in Ben's little mind...
Ad-hominem?
but since he refuses to inform himself and learn what Reformed Theology ACTUALLY teaches, he can be forgiven for not "getting" it.
Ben "gets it" fine. Ben finds clearly presented the sequence of "believe, and THEN be regenerated". (Regenerated by the RECEIVED-by-belief Spirit). Ben finds Reformed Theology without foundation.
Of course, all the non-Reformed believe that they had a hand in actuating their salvation, and believe that they have a free and unfettered choice for or against Christ, from the time they were born. God often allows people to live with that illusion for a time, but when they want to learn more, at some point, God will confront them with the Truth of their salvation, and their prior fallen condition, and they will come to believe the Reformed position, if they do not harden their hearts against it. If they do, God will leave them at the level, and they will be saved, but they will miss out on what God could show them if they were willing.
NBF, this attitude I've seen from virtually every Calvinist. "I used to believe as you do; but then I matured, and discovered the truth. Eventually you'll mature and God will reveal the truth to you also."

...rather a "down-the-nose" thing, isn't it?
No one said this verse teaches predestination, Ben. You're grasping at straws because this is referring to PHYSICAL SIGHT. This is NOT a verse about predestination, so it can't be used to refute it, any more than it can be used to teach it.
Jesus would not have said it if He had believed in "predestined-election".

"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things UNSEEN. Heb11:1

"Without faith it is impossible to please God; for he who COMES to God must believe that He IS, and that He is a rewarder of those who SEEK Him." Heb11:6


Jesus accepted Thomas' faith. But also said that UNSEEN faith is better.

Jesus said, "You believe BECAUSE you have seen."

Not "believed because He chose/elected you".

Those who do NOT see and yet believe, are blessed; this screams of "volition". It does not fit with "God GIFTS belief to those whom He chooses".
Yada-yada-yada. Ben hates predestination. Ben can't stand it when it's taught. So Ben tries to refute it by any means possible, reading into verses meanings that aren't there so he can say, "can't fit into predestination, blah-blah-blah" . He brings up the subject even when it isn't being talked about. He drags out his entire false theory, and posts long-winded rambling posts at every turn, trying to make proselytes to his false theory. He mentions Calvinism at every opportunity to show his opposition to it, even when the topic has nothing to do with Calvinism or Calvinists.
Respectfully --- "dodge", NBF. You can't answer the verse.

Some WERE entering in and they were STOPPED.

One who is PREDESTINED, cannot be STOPPED from entering into salvation.

Period.

There is no way to change that into "they weren't REALLY entering" --- because Jesus SAID they WERE.

There is no way to change that into "hypothetical but couldn't REALLY happen". It DID. Jesus SAID so.

You can't answer that verse with "Reformed THeology".
Ben, most people who have been here for a while have you figured out, and most don't even bother to participate, because of the blowhard nature of your posts. You have been counseled over and over again to take the time to learn the truth about Reformed Theology and Calvinism, and you stubbornly and steadfastly refuse to do so, but would rather cling to the lies and falsehoods you hold about Calvinism, so that you can preserve your theory...
"Blowhard", because it's confidence and Scriptural support. Because it doesn't fit Reformed theology.

Many won't respond --- because they realize that every verse they try, is shown NOT to prove what they thought it proved.

1Cor2:14 was thought to say "they can't believe in Jesus, because natural man cannot UNDERSTAND spiritual things". But the context says "it is the RECEIVED Spirit by Whom we understand spiritual things". Belief receives the Spirit, and THEN spiritual things are revealed.

2Cor4:3-4 was thought to say "their eyes are veiled so they CAN'T believe in Jesus". But 3:16 says "WHEN a man turns to the Lord, THEN the veil is removed".

John10:26 was thought to say "You don't believe in ME, because you are not My (predestined-elect) sheep". But context plainly says "You don't believe I'm the Messiah, because you are not My sheep; if ANYONE eners through Me, he shall be saved; and shall go in and out and find pasture."
Context, Ben, context.
YES!!! Exactly!!!

But you insist that "be saved", and "enter through Me", and "find pasture", do not mean "BECOME My sheep".

Why not?
which you have invested time into and have become way too attached to, to the point where you refuse to be corrected about any point of it...
Ah --- now you accuse me of the sin of pride.

As if I am IGNORING Scriptures, and not REFUTING what has been posted to me. :sigh:

I pray that my responses will always demonstrate respect and LOVE for my brothers; regardless of whether or not Ben is always treated with respect.

...speaking of "ignoring" and "not-refuting" --- will you please tell me how "WERE entering", doesn't mean "WERE being saved"? Matt23:13, Lk11:52

Thanx in advance...
 
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Athanasian Creed

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cygnusx1 said:
oh .... it must be just my imagination that John Calvin gets maligned at least once a Month on CF then ..........

Poor Johnnie boy - what with his background he should be more than just maligned - but methinks God knows exactly how to deal with the "Protestant Pope of Geneva, the Rome of Protestantism":eek:

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.


Ray :wave:
 
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cygnusx1

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Athanasian Creed said:
Poor Johnnie boy - what with his background he should be more than just maligned - but methinks God knows exactly how to deal with the "Protestant Pope of Geneva, the Rome of Protestantism":eek:

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.


Ray :wave:

"You should be happy the "hatred" is directed towards CalvinISM not CalvinISTS" ray


kinda has a real hollow ring to it doesn't it .........:sick:
 
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Athanasian Creed

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Give it up brother - your work on this thread is done - you've used nothing but Scripture to support your position, you've "rightly divided the word of truth." Now it's up to the Holy Spirit to do His work - a work which only He can do. We can only be a witness to the truth - He must do the convicting and convincing! ;)


Ray :wave:

Again though, excellent job - keep your 'nose in the Word' fella!:D
 
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Athanasian Creed

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cygnusx1 said:
"You should be happy the "hatred" is directed towards CalvinISM not CalvinISTS" ray


kinda has a real hollow ring to it doesn't it .........:sick:

Funny how you call exposing the truth 'hatred'. Not suprised though, alot of people do that when confronted. Johnnie boy is no different then you or i and the word of God will be the standard by which he, you and i will be judged!

Nowhere did i ever say that i hated Calvin - mind you, there seems to be lots not to like both about him and his theology. ;)

Peace & love,


Ray :wave:
 
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cygnusx1

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Ben johnson said:
Not only do I not find "predestined-election" in Scripture, I find plenty of verses about "falling-from-salvation".


that is strange , in over twenty five years I have found no reference to anyone losing SALVATION , not even once in scripture , all I have seen is men falling away , but that word salvation is like the missing link .

and how do you know ben , that you will not even tomorrow go to hell , an eternity outside of Christ ?

that is not the gospel , that is not good news at all.I don't know how you can sleep at night if God isn't protecting your life and faith ?
 
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Ben johnson

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Cygnus said:
it doesn't get any clearer than this , so if you want to traduce the Calvinist and his position you are doing it not from knowledge but from spite.
Spite? Have you see, spite in any of our posts here?

I hope not.

Calvinism is founded upon "monergistic-ordained-regeneration PRODUCES faith, PRODUCES perseverance, etcetera. But that sequence isn't found in Scripture.
Reprobation is according to a permission to allow sin , you would have it that God cannot permit sin , that He was surprsied by the fall and that God didn't know who would die in sin before He created them!
There is no "predestination", but "double-predestination".

You embrace far more than just "PERMISSION" to sin. By asserting that "God CHOOSES a few for salvation", your view firmly places God as ALSO choosing the reprobate FOR condemnation --- this is true even if He chooses them for condemnation BY ignoring them.

It certainly wasn't THEIR choice --- you admit that they could NOT choose NOT to sin. You assert they could never choose TO believe in Jesus. God chooses SOME elect, and He LEAVES the rest to burn.

Both eventualites are His choice.

"God is just, and justifier of he who believes". But Reformed THeology says "God is just, those who could NEVER AVOID sinning are justly condemned FOR sinning, and He justifies those who could not AVOID believing because of His monergistic regeneration."

Do I have that wrong, Cygnus?

BTW, you are cordiallly invited to also respond to the previous post (directed to NBF).

:)
 
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Ben johnson

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Cygnus said:
and how do you know ben , that you will not even tomorrow go to hell , an eternity outside of Christ ?
I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him; now, _I_ guard, by the Holy Spirit Who indwells me, the treasure entrusted to me.

Cygnus, brother --- can you say the same? How can you know that you have REAL (saved, "predestined") belief, or only FALSE belief that some day WILL fail?
AC said:
Give it up brother - your work on this thread is done - you've used nothing but Scripture to support your position, you've "rightly divided the word of truth." Now it's up to the Holy Spirit to do His work - a work which only He can do. We can only be a witness to the truth - He must do the convicting and convincing!
It's always been up to Him, Ray.

Ironic, isn't it --- WE say "the Holy Spirit will convict them".

THEY say "the Holy Spirit will convict you".

How can two divergent views have followers, both of whom think they're following the Spirit?
 
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cygnusx1

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Ben johnson said:
Spite? Have you see, spite in any of our posts here?

I hope not.
you are kiddin right .......... just open your eyes ben.


Calvinism is founded upon "monergistic-ordained-regeneration PRODUCES faith, PRODUCES perseverance, etcetera. But that sequence isn't found in Scripture.
There is no "predestination", but "double-predestination".

It is not as simple as that , predestination is unto life , foreordination is permission of sin , God makes no man sin!


You embrace far more than just "PERMISSION" to sin. By asserting that "God CHOOSES a few for salvation", your view firmly places God as ALSO choosing the reprobate FOR condemnation --- this is true even if He chooses them for condemnation BY ignoring them.


true but why traduce the Calvinist position , AGAIN!!!!!

Why did you not mention condemnation for sin , in your quote above ???? because you want to burn straw donkeys!

It certainly wasn't THEIR choice --- you admit that they could NOT choose NOT to sin. You assert they could never choose TO believe in Jesus. God chooses SOME elect, and He LEAVES the rest to burn.

When Adam sinned we sinned , so yes it was our collective CHOICE !


"God is just, and justifier of he who believes". But Reformed THeology says "God is just, those who could NEVER AVOID sinning are justly condemned FOR sinning, and He justifies those who could not AVOID believing because of His monergistic regeneration."

IT IS INTERESTING HOW YOU CONTINUE TO QUOTE THAT TEXT WAY BEYOND IT'S CONTEXT ............ MAYBE YOU CAN HAVE A TASTE OF YOUR OWN MEDICINE.??

"I pray not for the World " , see Jesus will not even pray for the world ....... only the Elect!

Do I have that wrong, Cygnus?

*cygnus bites his tongue *

something to keep your attention:

men who deny the trinity are not my brothers ........... see if you can spot the scripture used above out of context ......... again!!!!!!
 
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cygnusx1

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Athanasian Creed said:
Poor Johnnie boy - what with his background he should be more than just maligned - but methinks God knows exactly how to deal with the "Protestant Pope of Geneva, the Rome of Protestantism":eek:

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.


Ray :wave:

anti trinitarians may constitute being your brother ............ they are not mine!
 
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Athanasian Creed

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cygnusx1 said:
anti trinitarians may constitute being your brother ............ they are not mine!

You must be in favour of paedobaptism then as was ol' Johnnie boy eh?! Serventus was charged with not believing infant baptism Scriptural as well, which Johnnie was very much a proponent of (as well as believing in baptismal regeneration!):(

And, even though Serventus was heretical in SOME of his beliefs there is no Scriptural ground for murdering the man...NONE WHATSOEVER!

Again, you are missing the point!

Ray :wave:
 
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Ben johnson

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"I pray not for the World " , see Jesus will not even pray for the world ....... only the Elect!
Gosh --- you pulled that from context. It's from Jn17 --- the very passage I use to ANSWER those who think Jn6 asserts "given to Jesus so that they CAN believe".

In Jn17:6, "Those people Thou hast given Me out of the world --- Thine they WERE, AND Thou gavest them to Me."

Thine they were, Cygnus; they believed/worshipped the Father. Like Lydia (Acts16:14-16), they were given to Jesus THROUGH their belief. ("If God was your Father, THEN you would love ME..." Jn8:42!)

So Jesus does NOT pray for those who WILL not believe; He prays for the BELIEVERS.



"I manifested Thy name to those Thou gavest Me out of the world; THINE they WERE, and Thou gavest them to Me, and they have kept Thy world. Now they have come to know that everything Thou hast given Me is from Thee --- for the words which Thou gavest Me I have given to them, and they RECEIVED them --- truly understanding that I came forth from The, and they believed that Thou didst send Me. I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom Thou hast given Me..."


WHAT was He asking God for them, Cygnus? "To all whom Thou hast given Me, He may give eternal life. And this is eternal life, that they may KNOW THee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent. Jn17:2-3

This is eternal life, that they may KNOW God. Fellowship is salvation.

"If God was your Father, then you would love Me; for I have proceeded forth and come from the Father." Jn8:42

Perfect mirror verses. Perfect harmony. Those who believe God, believe Jesus. Jesus asks the Father to give BELIEVERS eternal life.

Not one shred of "predestination"....
anti trinitarians may constitute being your brother ............ they are not mine!
Who is "anti-Trinitarian"? :scratch:
 
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nobdysfool

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Athanasian Creed said:
You must be in favour of paedobaptism then as was ol' Johnnie boy eh?! Serventus was charged with not believing infant baptism Scriptural as well, which Johnnie was very much a proponent of (as well as believing in baptismal regeneration!):(

And, even though Serventus was heretical in SOME of his beliefs there is no Scriptural ground for murdering the man...NONE WHATSOEVER!

Again, you are missing the point!

Ray :wave:

And you commit the all-too-common error of judging the actions of a 16th century man by 21st century standards. Besides that, Calvin did not have Servetus murdered, the civic government of Geneva performed that deed. Calvin warned Servetus not to come to Geneva, but Servetus didn't listen. Calvin was not a government official at that time, and could not prevent the civic government from choosing to condemn Servetus to death. Calvin did ask the authorities to change the sentence from burning at the stake to beheading, but was unsuccessful. Calvin had nothing to do with the death of Michael Servetus, contrary to what anti-Calvinists want to believe.
 
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cygnusx1

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Athanasian Creed said:
You must be in favour of paedobaptism then as was ol' Johnnie boy eh?! Serventus was charged with not believing infant baptism Scriptural as well, which Johnnie was very much a proponent of (as well as believing in baptismal regeneration!):(

And, even though Serventus was heretical in SOME of his beliefs there is no Scriptural ground for murdering the man...NONE WHATSOEVER!

Again, you are missing the point!

Ray :wave:

on the contrary you are the one missing the point .

First Calvin didn't kill anyone , he wasn't even in Geneva at the time of servetus death .
Secondly , the death penalty for heretics was state law , Servetus knew this and foolishly threw his life away .
thirdly , and perhaps most importantly the three men most used by The Lord to write scripture each were guilty of murder ............

Moses David and Paul.

and lastly my point which went straight over your head is that knee jerk reactions like quoting a passage out of context (1 John 3:15 ) , attempting to malign Calvin as a murderer of BRETHREN is plainly insiduos , designed to make the unwary as biased as yourself!

seeing as Calvin muredered no-one , and that Servetus was not a Christian brother , your quoting that text is void and it shows you are grasping in the dark at straws.
 
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Athanasian Creed

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cygnusx1 said:
First Calvin didn't kill anyone , he wasn't even in Geneva at the time of servetus death .


Au contraire, Calvin temporarily left Geneva in 1538 because he had tried to enforce too severe a system of discipline in Geneva. He returned Sept. 13, 1541.

From 1541 to his death in 1564, Calvin was the head of the religious authority and Council (consistory) He drew up and enforced a 'confession of faith' on all the citizens of Geneva. Any variance or opposition meant banishment, confiscation of goods, imprisonment, torture, even death.

cygnusx1 said:
Secondly , the death penalty for heretics was state law , Servetus knew this and foolishly threw his life away .


Calvin was in favour of putting Servetus to death. Calvin personally appeared in court as the accuser and as chief witness to for the prosecution. Geneva's Council consulted other churches of Protestant Switzerland and there reply: Servetus should be condemned but not executed. Nevertheless, under Calvin's leadership, Servetus was sentenced to death on two counts of heresy: Unitarianism (he denied the triunity of God) and rejection of infant baptism (of which Calvin was a proponent as well as of baptismal regeneration)
Calvin's willingness to have Servetus beheaded rather than burned at the stake was not necessarily motivated by kindness, but was an attempt to transfer responsibility to the civil authority. Beheading was the penalty for civil crimes; burning at the stake was for heresy. The charges against Servetus were clearly theological, not civil, and were brought by Calvin himself! The civil authority only acted at the behest of the Church (as they did in Catholic countries) Calvin himself wrote a letter of advice to the Marquis de Poet, high chamberlain to the king of Navarre in 1561,

"Do not fail to rid the country of those zealous scoundrels who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as i have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard." A year later, he acknowledged that he was responsible for Servetus' murder,

"And what crime was it of mine if our Council at my exhortation...took vengeance upon his execrable blasphemies." Stauch Calvinist William Cunningham admits,

"
There can be no doubt that Calvin beforehand, at the time, and after the event, explicitly approved and defended the putting (Servetus) to death, and assumed the responsibility of the transaction."

cygnusx1 said:
thirdly , and perhaps most importantly the three men most used by The Lord to write scripture each were guilty of murder ............

Moses David and Paul.


And that is your justification for Calvin's crimes - other people did it, why can't he??:scratch: We know that the men you mentioned sought forgiveness of the Lord, we are not sure when it comes to Calvin. Methinks he felt no remorse at killing - like he was doing God a favour, a service against the "henchmen of Satan" as he was wont to call all those he deemed heretical!

cygnusx1 said:
and lastly my point which went straight over your head is that knee jerk reactions like quoting a passage out of context (1 John 3:15 ) , attempting to malign Calvin as a murderer of BRETHREN is plainly insiduos , designed to make the unwary as biased as yourself!

seeing as Calvin muredered no-one , and that Servetus was not a Christian brother , your quoting that text is void and it shows you are grasping in the dark at straws.

1 John 3:15 stands on it's own and as an indictment against Calvin, a murderer. Just because Servetus was guilty of some heretical views (and others which clearly weren't but were only contrary to Calvins 'theology') does not give anyone, let alone Calvin, the right to kill them. Methinks you are the bias one, failing to look at Calvin with anything other than rose-coloured glasses. Thank God history has recorded his crimes and i'm sure God has as well. Calvin will reap his just rewards! ;)

Ray;)
 
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cygnusx1

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something is not quite right here .

when one considers the possibility that a Christian may have sinned dreadfully ( I don't agree that it was murder , and neither do many Christians ) , that a man who considers a Christian leader made a dreadful mistake , and then gleefully and spitefully writes

Poor Johnnie boy - what with his background he should be more than just maligned - but methinks God knows exactly how to deal with the "Protestant Pope of Geneva, the Rome of Protestantism"

Thank God history has recorded his crimes and i'm sure God has as well. Calvin will reap his just rewards! ;)

then there is something dreadfully wrong happening here..

the cruel irony being that murder can be committed in the heart according to the teaching of the Lord without so much as even lifting a finger!

If you really believe that John Calvin committed a heinious crime surely the Christ in you would be weeping and heart broken , not parading and pointing the finger.

3. (11-12) David’s reaction: mourning for Saul.

Therefore David took hold of his own clothes and tore them, and so did all the men who were with him. And they mourned and wept and fasted until evening for Saul and for Jonathan his son, for the people of the LORD and for the house of Israel, because they had fallen by the sword.

Yes , something just doesn't add up.

and sanctimoniously quoting a text about murdering a fellow believer (brother) is not only false (engaging in bearing false witness is a sin worthy of death) but is contemptable , Calvin didn't murder his brother like Cain ........ you have failed to take into account the State Law for Heresy , Witchcraft , adultery and murder across much of Europe at that time , because it doesn't suit your aggenda.
 
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onajourney87

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I have no clue why someone decided they needed to bring killed heretics into the equation here, nor why others decided they needed to continue with the tangent on it, but whatever... my comment is on a different thing...

Of course, all the non-Reformed believe that they had a hand in actuating their salvation, and believe that they have a free and unfettered choice for or against Christ, from the time they were born. God often allows people to live with that illusion for a time, but when they want to learn more, at some point, God will confront them with the Truth of their salvation, and their prior fallen condition, and they will come to believe the Reformed position, if they do not harden their hearts against it. If they do, God will leave them at the level, and they will be saved, but they will miss out on what God could show them if they were willing.

I was a very zealous Calvinist for some time, after much research after being shown Romans 8, Ephesians, etc, etc by somene on a forum. I started digging into my Bible and looking into the whole predestination thing, and armed myself with several good books by John Piper, RC Sproul, and John White. It took me awhile to become convinced of Calvinism, and ended up with Calvinistic beliefs almost identical to those of John Piper (who I found to be the most consistent, and to this day still find to be the most consistent).
I went through the secondary struggle over limited atonement, and Piper's writings and sermons on the topic convinced me on that. I remained a Calvinist for over a year, along with a buddy of mine (still a Calvinist) who studied the issue with me (and we still talk about it often).
It was great stuff... I defended Calvinism, joyfully explained it to those who were interested, etc.
However... a little over a year ago now, I started having minor problems with certain aspects of Calvinism; no big deal, I really don't expect the 3lbs of meat between my ears to be able to understand God fully. But, I started having great problems with God Himself as I understood Him through my Calvinistic beliefs. To compound problems, who He was revealing Himself to be to me through Scripture and prayer was just not lining up with who I understood Him to be through my Calvinistic beliefs.
I reexaimed my beliefs, and after months of hard study and a ton of prayer, and I ended up having to largely reject much of it. And it greatly effected my relationship with God and for the better I think.

Perhaps one day... I'll lean more Calvinistically than I am right now.

But far be it from me to be arrogant enough to dare to say that I hold the truth on a VERY debatable topic between millions of people who love and follow and serve Jesus. I've done that once, I'm not doing it again.

Perhaps Calvinists are right; perhaps I'm right... perhaps we are both wrong. Loose the arrogance.
 
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createdtoworship

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Athanasian Creed said:
Au contraire, Calvin temporarily left Geneva in 1538 because he had tried to enforce too severe a system of discipline in Geneva. He returned Sept. 13, 1541.

From 1541 to his death in 1564, Calvin was the head of the religious authority and Council (consistory) He drew up and enforced a 'confession of faith' on all the citizens of Geneva. Any variance or opposition meant banishment, confiscation of goods, imprisonment, torture, even death.

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Calvin was in favour of putting Servetus to death. Calvin personally appeared in court as the accuser and as chief witness to for the prosecution. Geneva's Council consulted other churches of Protestant Switzerland and there reply: Servetus should be condemned but not executed. Nevertheless, under Calvin's leadership, Servetus was sentenced to death on two counts of heresy: Unitarianism (he denied the triunity of God) and rejection of infant baptism (of which Calvin was a proponent as well as of baptismal regeneration)
Calvin's willingness to have Servetus beheaded rather than burned at the stake was not necessarily motivated by kindness, but was an attempt to transfer responsibility to the civil authority. Beheading was the penalty for civil crimes; burning at the stake was for heresy. The charges against Servetus were clearly theological, not civil, and were brought by Calvin himself! The civil authority only acted at the behest of the Church (as they did in Catholic countries) Calvin himself wrote a letter of advice to the Marquis de Poet, high chamberlain to the king of Navarre in 1561,

"Do not fail to rid the country of those zealous scoundrels who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as i have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard." A year later, he acknowledged that he was responsible for Servetus' murder,

"And what crime was it of mine if our Council at my exhortation...took vengeance upon his execrable blasphemies." Stauch Calvinist William Cunningham admits,

"
There can be no doubt that Calvin beforehand, at the time, and after the event, explicitly approved and defended the putting (Servetus) to death, and assumed the responsibility of the transaction."

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And that is your justification for Calvin's crimes - other people did it, why can't he??:scratch: We know that the men you mentioned sought forgiveness of the Lord, we are not sure when it comes to Calvin. Methinks he felt no remorse at killing - like he was doing God a favour, a service against the "henchmen of Satan" as he was wont to call all those he deemed heretical!
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1 John 3:15 stands on it's own and as an indictment against Calvin, a murderer. Just because Servetus was guilty of some heretical views (and others which clearly weren't but were only contrary to Calvins 'theology') does not give anyone, let alone Calvin, the right to kill them. Methinks you are the bias one, failing to look at Calvin with anything other than rose-coloured glasses. Thank God history has recorded his crimes and i'm sure God has as well. Calvin will reap his just rewards! ;)

Ray;)
I can also attest to calvin being in Geneva.... sorry it's long but somewhat pointed with detail..

I must confess beforehand that this is a quote from a really bad website but nontheless it serves our purpose "gulp" --(hesitantly copied from evangelicaloutreach.org-witness to them please...hint hint)

On October 27, 1553 John Calvin, the founder of Calvinism, had Michael Servetus, the Spanish physician, burned at the stake just outside of Geneva for his doctrinal heresies!(1) This event was something Calvin had considered long before Servetus was even captured, for Calvin wrote his friend, Farel, on February 13, 1546 (seven years prior to Servetus' arrest) and went on record as saying:

"If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."(2)

Evidently, in that day Calvin's authority in Geneva, Switzerland had ultimate "weight." This is why some referred to Geneva as the "Rome of Protestantism"(3) and to Calvin as the "Protestant 'Pope' of Geneva."(4)

During Servetus' trial, Calvin wrote:

"I hope that the verdict will call for the death penalty."(5)

All this reveals a side of John Calvin that is not well-known or very appealing, to say the least! Obviously, he had a prolonged, murderous hate in his heart and was willing to violate Scripture to put another to death and in a most cruel way. Although Calvin consented to Servetus' request to be beheaded, he acquiesced to the mode of execution employed. But why did Calvin have a death wish for Servetus?

"To rescue Servetus from his heresies, Calvin replied with the latest edition of his 'Institutes of the Christian Religion,' which Servetus promptly returned with insulting marginal comments. Despite Servetus's [sic] pleas, Calvin, who developed an intense dislike of Servetus during their correspondence, refused to return any of the incriminating material."(6)

"Convicted of heresy by the Roman Catholic authorities, Servetus escaped the death penalty by a prison break. Heading for Italy, Servetus unaccountably stopped at Geneva, where he had been denounced by Calvin and the Reformers. He was seized the day after his arrival, condemned as a heretic when he refused to recant, and burned in 1553 with the apparent tacit approval of Calvin."(7)

In the course of his flight from Vienne, Servetus stopped in Geneva and made the mistake of attending a sermon by Calvin. He was recognized and arrested after the service.(8)

"Calvin had him [Servetus] arrested as a heretic. Convicted and burned to death."(9)

From the time that Calvin had him arrested on August 14th until his condemnation, Servetus spent his remaining days:

" ... in an atrocious dungeon with no light or heat, little food, and no sanitary facilities."(10)

Let it be noted that the Calvinists of Geneva put half-green wood around the feet of Servetus and a wreath strewn with sulfur on his head. It took over thirty minutes to render him lifeless in such a fire, while the people of Geneva stood around to watch him suffer and slowly die! Just before this happened, the record shows:

"Farel walked beside the condemned man, and kept up a constant barrage of words, in complete insensitivity to what Servetus might be feeling. All he had in mind was to extort from the prisoner an acknowledgement [sic] of his theological error -- a shocking example of the soulless cure of souls. After some minutes of this, Servetus ceased making any reply and prayed quietly to himself. When they arrived at the place of execution, Farel announced to the watching crowd: 'Here you see what power Satan possesses when he has a man in his power. This man is a scholar of distinction, and he perhaps believed he was acting rightly. But now Satan possesses him completely, as he might possess you, should you fall into his traps.'

When the executioner began his work, Servetus whispered with trembling voice: 'Oh God, Oh God!' The thwarted Farel snapped at him: 'Have you nothing else to say?' This time Servetus replied to him: 'What else might I do, but speak of God!' Thereupon he was lifted onto the pyre and chained to the stake. A wreath strewn with sulfur was placed on his head. When the ******s were ignited, a piercing cry of horror broke from him. 'Mercy, mercy!' he cried. For more than half an hour the horrible agony continued, for the pyre had been made of half-green wood, which burned slowly. 'Jesus, Son of the eternal God, have mercy on me,' the tormented man cried from the midst of the flames ...."(11)

Although we essentially have the same in the conversion of the repentant thief (Lk. 23:42,43 cf. Lk. 18:13) and the Scripture, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" (Acts 2:21; Rom. 10:13), Farel still reckoned Servetus an unsaved man at the end of his life:

"Farel noted that Servetus might have been saved by shifting the position of the adjective and confessing Christ as the Eternal Son rather than as the Son of the Eternal God."(12)

"Calvin had thus murdered his enemy, and there is nothing to suggest that he ever repented his crime [sic]. The next year he published a defence [sic] in which further insults were heaped upon his former adversary in most vindictive and intemperate language."(13)

As the Roman Catholics of 1415 burned John Hus(14) at the stake over doctrine, John Calvin, likewise, had Michael Servetus burned at the stake. But was doctrine the only issue? Could there have been another reason, a political one?

"As an 'obstinate heretic' he had all his property confiscated without more ado. He was badly treated in prison. It is understandable, therefore, that Servetus was rude and insulting at his confrontation with Calvin. Unfortunately for him, at this time Calvin was fighting to maintain his weakening power in Geneva. Calvin's opponents used Servetus as a pretext for attacking the Geneva Reformer's theocratic government. It became a matter of prestige -- always the sore point for any dictatorial regime -- for Calvin to assert his power in this respect. He was forced to push the condemnation of Servetus with all the means at his command."(15)

"Ironically enough, the execution of Servetus did not really bolster the strength of the Geneva Reformation. On the contrary, as Fritz Barth has indicated, it 'gravely compromised Calvinism and put into the hands of the Catholics, to whom Calvin wanted to demonstrate his Christian orthodoxy, the very best weapon for the persecution of the Huguenots, who were nothing but heretics in their eyes.' The procedure against Servetus served as a model of a Protestant heretic trial .... it differed in no respect from the methods of the medieval Inquisition .... The victorious Reformation, too, was unable to resist the temptations of power."(16)






"Two other famous episodes concerned Jacques Gruet and Jerome Bolsec. Gruet, whom Calvin considered a Libertine, had written letters critical of the Consistory and, more serious, petitioned the Catholic king of France to intervene in the political and religious affairs of Geneva. With Calvin's concurrence he was beheaded for treason. Bolsec publicly challenged Calvin's teaching on predestination, a doctrine Bolsec, with many others, found morally repugnant. Banished from the city in 1551, he revenged himself in 1577 by publishing a biography of Calvin that charged him with greed, financial misconduct, and sexual aberration."(18)

1. "On only two counts, significantly, was Servetus condemned -- namely, anti-Trinitarianism and anti-paedobaptism." Roland H. Bainton, Hunted Heretic (The Beacon Press, 1953), p. 207. [Comment: While Servetus was wrong about the Trinity, regarding his rejection of infant baptism, Servetus said, "It is an invention of the devil, an infernal falsity for the destruction of all Christianity" (Ibid., p. 186.) Many Christians of our day could only give a hearty "Amen" to this statement made about infant baptism. However, this is why, in part, Servetus was condemned to death by the Calvinists!] (return)

2. Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge (Baker Book House, 1950), p. 371. (return)

3. The Wycliffe Biographical Dictionary Of The Church (Moody Press, 1982), p. 73. (return)

4. Stephen Hole Fritchman, Men Of Liberty (Reissued, Kennikat Press, Inc., 1968), p. 8. (return)

5. Walter Nigg, The Heretics (Alfred A. Knopf, Inc., 1962), p. 328. (return)

6. Steven Ozment, The Age Of Reformation 1250-1550

7. Who's Who In Church History (Fleming H. Revell Co, 1969), p. 252. (return)

8. The Heretics, p. 326. (return)

9. The Wycliffe Biographical Dictionary Of The Church, p. 366. (return)

10. John F. Fulton, Michael Servetus Humanist and Martyr (Herbert Reichner, 1953), p. 35. (return)

11. The Heretics, p. 327. (return)

12. Hunted Heretic, p. 214. [Comment: Nowhere in the Bible do we see this sort of emphasis for one's salvation. The dying thief, the Philippian jailer and Cornelius were all saved by a most basic trusting-submitting faith in Jesus.] (return)

13. Michael Servetus Humanist and Martyr, p. 36. (return)

14. John Hus attacked various Roman Catholic heresies such as transubstantiation, subservience to the Pope, belief in the saints, efficacy of absolution through the priesthood, unconditional obedience to earthly rulers and simony. Hus also made the Holy Scriptures the only rule in matters of religion and faith. See The Wycliffe Biographical Dictionary Of The Church, p. 201. (return)

15. The Heretics, p. 326. (return)

16. Ibid., pp. 328, 329. (return)

17. For example, in clear contrast to the meaning that Jesus gave of the parable of the weeds in the field (Mt. 13:24-43) where the Lord told us "the field is the world" (v.38), John Calvin taught "the field is the church." See Calvin's verse by verse commentary of Matthew's gospel. (return)

18. The Age of Reformation 1250-1550, pp. 368,369.
 
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createdtoworship

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Hey guys, pray for Dan Corner, he is a little bit off with doctrine, He is way extreme arminiust but not in the normal sense of the word, he thinks there is NO security

at all...very works oriented etc...

you guys are bible student etc, try praying and giving this guy a try...

I have been added to his blocked list already...I called him a mormon by accident....lol

anyway not to be rude or anything, but just pray for the guy...here is some of his work FYI




I do believe Calvin was guilty in the account of servetus, but it might have also involved heresy of the trinity...nontheless...


The following is a hesitant hint of some of Dan Corner's work, I have talked to Him and tried to witness to such a man only to be blocked by him, please witness to this man and pray for him

His site is www.evangelicaloutreach.org



You are about to read an important part of church history from the Reformation period that has been so concealed in our day that very few people know the facts. Brace yourself for a shock.

On October 27, 1553 John Calvin, the founder of Calvinism, had Michael Servetus, the Spanish physician, burned at the stake just outside of Geneva for his doctrinal heresies!(1) Hence, the originator of the popular doctrine of "once saved, always saved" (known in certain circles as "the perseverance of the saints") violated the cry of the Reformation -- "Sola Scriptura" -- by murdering a doctrinal heretic without Scriptural justification. This event was something Calvin had considered long before Servetus was even captured, for Calvin wrote his friend, Farel, on February 13, 1546 (seven years prior to Servetus' arrest) and went on record as saying:

"If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."(2)

Evidently, in that day Calvin's authority in Geneva, Switzerland had ultimate "weight." This is why some referred to Geneva as the "Rome of Protestantism"(3) and to Calvin as the "Protestant 'Pope' of Geneva."(4)

During Servetus' trial, Calvin wrote:

"I hope that the verdict will call for the death penalty."(5)


the rest of this article found at

http://http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/ashes.htm/
 
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