Do seekers find? Or do only "founders", seek?

[Ben johnson]

AMEN, bro!!!!

Uhhh, huh.

No, it is: "if , .... then ....." Like everyone that believes that Jesus is the Christ, has been born of God". It is just a demonstration. I am not arguing against that at all. But it does NOT say anything as to HOW one became "born of God" in the first place. For that you have to go a few verses down, as I have shown.

But you're missing that it perfectly fits into "Responsible Grace", too. Read it this way:

"Whoever believes, WAS born of God (and WAS born of God when he FIRST believed!).[/b]"

Don't forget verse 10; that says "whoever disbelieves is condemned, BECAUSE he won't believe".

but God only regenerates on real faith.

Ohhh -- I like how you said that.

God only regenerates on REAL faith. Correct!!!!!

Real faith, RECEIVES God's regeneration. Right sequence...

it is a stated fact that everyone who believes in Christ (present tense) has (past tense) been born of God.

Right. He who believes (NOW), was born of God (THEN) --- when he FIRST BELIEVED.

Have you not read Rom1:17, "The righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith"?

THE POINT IS THAT WE TAKE A MAN AT HIS WORD , until he shows what he is really like , if he proves he has spurious faith we inform him........ because his faith (deliberate emphasis) cannot save him , only regeneration which produces genuine faith and repentance secures salvation.

And the point also is that you purvey man as "completely corrupt and bent ONLY on sin" --- how then does he believe in ANY measure (even FALSE belief)? If he's at emnity with God, why is he participating at all?

The literal Greek reads: Everyone who is believing that Jesus is the Christ has been
born of God.

Right. Has-been, and WAS-been when he FIRST BELIEVED. Nooooo problem...

The Greek grammar shows that being born again precedes the believing. One believes BECAUSE one has been born again.

Wrong. "Believes now", does not deny "believed to BE born again" (and then CONTINUED believing until NOW).

Your bad.

This verse upholds the Reformed view quite nicely, and it is not the only one.

Perhaps; but it also does not deny "Responsible Grace".

None of 'em do.

 

[cygnusx1]

But you're backwards. The reason they are "not of His sheep", is because they "haven't entered through Jesus (believed) and BECOME His sheep".

sorry , I forgot to quote from that Gospel , I must remind myself that 4 Gospels are insufficient , we need ben's Gospel ............

 

[Ben johnson]

That was the Gospel of John.

 

[cygnusx1]

But you're backwards. The reason they are "not of His sheep", is because they "haven't entered through Jesus (believed) and BECOME His sheep".

Calvinists cannot be corrected on their misinterpretation of John10:28. It really reads:
"Tell us if you are the Messiah."
"I told you (that I'm the Messiah), and you won't believe (that I'm the Messiah). You won't believe (that I'm the Messiah) because you are not of My sheep."

ben it appears clear to me that even the basic simple elements of Christianity are missing from your understanding , how is this accounted for I have no idea ......

is ignores verse 9, "if TIS-ANYONE enters through Me (believes!) then he will be saved, and will go in and out and FIND PASTURE( will BECOME My sheep)."
How, and why? It was God's decision. Wasn't it?
Here's the problem. Yes it is...

men prefer darkness ben , don't you even know that???

AND --- we are firmly warned NOT to imitate others' unbelief and disobedience, for it will CAUSE condemnation. Heb4:11

and this is supposed to disagree with what I have said , it only makes clear you either have not read what I said (most likely) or you have not understood (possible).

A.T.Robertson, on Eph8, says "Grace is GOD'S part, faith is OURS."

good old a t robertson , the infallable pope!
Of course faith is practised by the Christian , again you burn a straw ,,,,,,,, donkey!

God's gift, our choice to receive it.

is it an obligatory or a free (no consequence) choice ben ???

If you want an example of the difference I will gladly give it to you!

Because if saving-faith itself IS a "unilateral gift from God", then we are NOT saved "by grace through faith".

what kind of logic is this that deliberately changes faith and pretends it is the same as grace ............ more straw donkeys ..........

...we are saved "by grace THROUGH GRACE"...

your logic is disintigrating , we are saved by Grace (first primary cause) through faith (instrumental cause) unto good works (evidential cause) .......... clear enough for you ?

Jesus is revealed to all men. Rm1:19.

no he is not ............. that is why we send out missionaries ben , we don't send them out to teach people how to be a humanist or an Arminian , ........

Conviction. But I think this is the greatest obstacle to your accpetance of "Responsible Grace". You cannot concieve of man having a choice.

what the .......... have you heared yourself lately ben , one false construction after the next .......... choice depends upon something prior ben , it does not exist in a vacuum!

And that leaves you struggling terribly to explain the glaring contradiction.

"Man cannot believe in God, because he's COMPLETELY inclined towards sin.

But SOME men DO believe; it's just a FALSE belief, evidenced by their eventual FALLING-AWAY.

And once SAVED, we cannot RETURN to that 'hostile-in-mind' place, BECAUSE of that reconcilliation.

...even though reconcilliation AWAY FROM 'hostile-in-mind' is clearly asserted in Col1:21-23, as 'if indeed we CONINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from Jesus-the-Hope' --- it's not REALLY a CONDITION; God will always MEET the condition, it's not REALLY a WARNING.

you are really losing the plot ben .......... there is no contradiction , even holdon recognises not all faith is genuine ......... your on your own!

Those whom God chose WILL believe, and will NOT later disbelieve.

Yes ! wonderful isn't it!

Those whom God did NOT choose, CANNOT believe because they are at EMNITY with God, and cannot EVER seek Him.

yes , dreadful condition fallen man is in isn't it ......... guess he really does need GRACE TO SAVE him!!!

...except for those who SEEK Him (falsely), and BELIEVE (falsely), only by perseverance do we-elect demonstrate TRUE belief and TRUE continuing..."

It is clear , man can believe and still be unregenerate , but once regenerate true faith is always the result , and that is because everything has a scource , good things come from God (not to hard to see is it ben) and bad/rotten things come from men...........

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben, it appears clear to me that even the basic simple elements of Christianity are missing from your understanding , how is this accounted for I have no idea ......

The basic elements of Calvinism are missing.

men prefer darkness Ben , don't you even know that???

You just ignored (again) what I said about your citation; and then as usual the same assertion will recur. Jesus did NOT say "you don't believe in Me because you are not predestined", He said "you don't believe in My Messiahship because you are not of My sheep". And verse 9 says "anyone who BELIEVES in Me, becomes My sheep". You're gonna hafta change that into "If anyone-predestined (so it doesn't MEAN if, it's CERTAIN) enters through Me he shall be saved (well of COURSE he will, he's predestined) --- and will go in and out and find pasture (oh this doesn't say 'BECOME sheep', they were sheep BEFORE they were saved...)."

By saying "men prefer darkness", you assert "men cannot (will not) believe, because they're completely corrupt and HATE God, never SEEK Him, their hearts only pursue sin and unrighteousness".

Denying Heb11:6 ("without faith it is impossible to please God [wait --- why would he WRITE this is saving-faith was GIFTED to God's PREDESTINED???]; for he who COMES to God must believe God exists, and that God is a rewarder of him who SEEKS Him"). That verse places "seeking", as CAUSAL to God's favor. It places believing solidly BEFORE coming (denying your view of "given-to-Jesus-and-THEN-they-believe"), it absolutely affirms "free will" instead of predestionation".

It also denies Lk8:13; they "RECEIVED the message with joy, and BELIEVED".

and this is supposed to disagree with what I have said , it only makes clear you either have not read what I said (most likely) or you have not understood (possible).

But it's not a real warning to you --- it cannot ever HAPPEN in your view.

You see this as "the 100% successful MEANS by which GOD perseveres US". And ignores all the verses that charge perseverance TO us. 1Tim4:16 for instance. "Pay close attention to yourself and your teaching, PERSEVERE in these things; for as you DO you will save yourself...."

good old a t robertson , the infallable pope!
Of course faith is practised by the Christian , again you burn a straw ,,,,,,,, donkey!

No straw --- it's a question of ownership.

1. God predestines the-few-whom-HE-chose, and GIFTS faith TO them (God owns our saving-faith, saving-faith flows from God towards man --- it is but the CONSEQUENCE of His regeneration)

2. Saving-faith is charged to US. OUR faith, OUR perseverance, OUR abiding-in-Him. It flows from men's hearts towards God, saving-faith RECEIVES His gift-of-grace (and RECEIVES His regeneration).

"...receiving as the outcome of YOUR FAITH the salvation of your souls..." 1Pet1:9

Which number does Scripture support?
Is salvation the outcome of faith? Or is faith the outcome of predestined-salvation?

is it an obligatory or a free (no consequence) choice ben ???

If you want an example of the difference I will gladly give it to you!

Please go ahead. But it will be "re-defined", not "not really obligation but irresistible CONSEQUENCE of God's monergistic choice."

You deny the word "obligation" in Romans8:12, and the following words "if YOU live according to the flesh YOU must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, you WILL live."

You deny the theme of Romans6 --- "CONSIDER yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. DO NOT go on presenting the members of your body as instruments of unrighteousness, BUT present them as instruments of righteousness and YOURSELF as ALIVE FROM THE DEAD."

what kind of logic is this that deliberately changes faith and pretends it is the same as grace ............ more straw donkeys ..........

A couple paragraphs back I gave you two choices. I submit that you WILL choose #1 --- in which case this is not a "straw donkey", but true reflection of your view.

If saving-faith is gifted to us (unasked, monergistically through conspicuous election-and-regeneration), then we ARE "saved by grace through grace".

Such a "monergistic-unasked-gifted-faith" is nothing BUT "further one-sided God's grace".

"By grace (Jesus on the Cross), THROUGH GRACE (monergistic regeneration and GIFTED FAITH) have you been saved..."

your logic is disintigrating , we are saved by Grace (first primary cause) through faith (instrumental cause) unto good works (evidential cause) .......... clear enough for you ?

But which direction does "instrumental-faith" flow? Man-towards-God? Or God-towards-man? In other words, does MAN'S faith receive God's grace? Or does God's grace cause/lead-to/CONSEQUENT-IN saving-faith?

Which is the ownership?

no he is not ............. that is why we send out missionaries ben , we don't send them out to teach people how to be a humanist or an Arminian , ........

You're conflicted. The Creator (Jesus) can be known through His creation (Rom1:20); but Rm10:14 plainly says "HOW shall they believe, WITHOUT a preacher"? The conflict is that you see belief as the CONSEQUENCE of God's election; while Scripture says that believing is HINDERED without preachers.

Hindered. Hmmm; did you ever comment on Matt23:13 & Lk11:52? How can one be "hindered/PREVENTED" from being saved, if he is PREDESTINED? How could he be "entering in", if he was NOT predestined? Can you answer that?

what the .......... have you heared yourself lately ben , one false construction after the next .......... choice depends upon something prior ben , it does not exist in a vacuum!

Here is your problem; you enthusiastically assert "Man CANNOT believe WITHOUT regeneration, because before regeneration his heart is fully inclined towards sin and towards HATING GOD". But then there are the verses that say "THEY BELIEVED". And you say, "oh they CAN believe but it's a FALSE believe; evidenced by their FALLING-AWAY."

1. No one CAN believe in Jesus, WITHOUT being "pre-chosen" (none seek Him)
2. One CAN believe in Jesus, but it's FALSE belief
3. Those who fall away, had FALSE-belief (never true)
3b. Falling makes evident that their belief WAS false
3c. Perseverance makes evident that their belief was TRUE
3d. Therefore one cannot KNOW whether he's true or false UNTIL HE DIES
4. One who is unelected LOVES darkness and LOVES sin
4b. But one-unelect CAN "escape defilements", THROUGH superficial knowledge of Jesus
4c. ...even though Jesus said "no BAD tree can produce GOOD..."
4d. ...so they weren't really escaped in their HEARTS...
4e. ...anyone who FALLS exposes the fact they were never there in the FIRST place...
4f. ...and all the warnings AGAINST falling, are the effective means to KEEP the chosen FROM falling
4g. ...because the CHOSEN, cannot fall (so they can't be warnings against POSSIBILITY)
5. ONLY belief flows from God's choice and monergistic-regeneration
5b. ONLY unbelief flows from God's not-choosing and their unavoidable depravity
5c. But those unchosen CAN "receive Jesus' Gospel with joy and BELIEVE"...
5d. ...but it's FALSE belief because they FALL....
5e. ...those WHO persevere and bear fruit do so UNAVOIDABLY, because of His choice...
5f. ...and verses that say "salvation is OUTCOME of YOUR FAITH" don't really MEAN "your faith/perseverance/endurance has SAVED you"

Is all of this right, Cygnus? Any "straw men", or "misrepresentation"?

you are really losing the plot ben .......... there is no contradiction , even holdon recognises not all faith is genuine ......... you're on your own!

But how can "depraved-unelect" man, have ANY faith? Do their hearts ONLY seek sin, or NOT?

And the verses that you propose "FALSE-FAITH" --- what is there in those verses to convey "false-faith"? Isn't that an idea imposed on those verses, by the presumption of predestination? In Heb6:4-6 --- is there anything there that hints of "false-faith"?

•·They were "tasted heavenly-gift/God's-word/powers-to-come" --- if that was only SUPERFICIAL, then did Jesus really TASTE death in Heb2:9? Both passages use "geuomai".

•·It says "once enlightened" --- doesn't this oppose your view of "they only wanted darkness"?

•·It says "metochos-partners of the Holy Spirit". If "metochos" refers to those who PARTNERED in a heavenly calling (Heb3:1), and PARTNERED in Christ (3:14) --- if THOSE TWO occurrances of "metochos" really mean "SAVED", then how can the THIRD "metochos" (which refers to the SPIRIT), not really mean "saved-partners-with-Holy-Spirit"?

Yes ! wonderful isn't it!

But only perseverance proves WHICH faith someone has; "false", or "true".

One must DIE before he can know if he had "false", or "true".

Those whom God did NOT choose, CANNOT believe because they are at EMNITY with God, and cannot EVER seek Him.

yes , dreadful condition fallen man is in isn't it ......... guess he really does need GRACE TO SAVE him!!!

But "they BELIEVED!"

It was a belief that DID NEED God's grace, but it wasn't a belief that God GIFTED. Was it?

What was the difference between the BEGINNING beliefs those who believed (but fell to temptation/persecution/affliction), and those who believed (and bore fruit with perseverance)?

You say "unelect men CANNOT believe". But obviously they CAN. You say "non-perseverance proves their belief wasn't GENUINE. Why?

Paul speaks of "beginning faith to ending faith" in Romans1:17; perseverance is charged to US in 1Tim4:17; salvation is the outcome of OUR FAITH in 1Pet1:9. Why doesn't it all fit, Cygnus? It is OUR faith and OUR perseverance that keeps us in Christ and in salvation; each man can BEGIN in faith (like the Galatians BEGUN in the Spirit! 3:3), but how it ENDS is up to US!!!

Why doesn't that make sense to you?

It is clear , man can believe and still be unregenerate , but once regenerate true faith is always the result , and that is because everything has a scource , good things come from God (not to hard to see is it Ben) and bad/rotten things come from men...........

So many verses admonish against being "hindered/destroyed/ruined/overthrown/gone-astray/wandered/shipwrecked faith". And those verses use terms like "for WHOM Christ DIED".

How can "for whom Christ DIED", reflect those who didn't really ever BELONG?

If only "bad-rotten-things" come from the unregenerate, then what is the dynamic in 2Pet2? Can someone "escape defilements through the epignosis-true-knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ", but "never-be-saved"?

 

[nobdysfool]

The basic elements of Calvinism are missing.
You just ignored (again) what I said about your citation; and then as usual the same assertion will recur. Jesus did NOT say "you don't believe in Me because you are not predestined", He said "you don't believe in My Messiahship because you are not of My sheep". And verse 9 says "anyone who BELIEVES in Me, becomes My sheep". You're gonna hafta change that into "If anyone-predestined (so it doesn't MEAN if, it's CERTAIN) enters through Me he shall be saved (well of COURSE he will, he's predestined) --- and will go in and out and find pasture (oh this doesn't say 'BECOME sheep', they were sheep BEFORE they were saved...)."

By saying "men prefer darkness", you assert "men cannot (will not) believe, because they're completely corrupt and HATE God, never SEEK Him, their hearts only pursue sin and unrighteousness".

Denying Heb11:6 ("without faith it is impossible to please God [wait --- why would he WRITE this is saving-faith was GIFTED to God's PREDESTINED???]; for he who COMES to God must believe God exists, and that God is a rewarder of him who SEEKS Him"). That verse places "seeking", as CAUSAL to God's favor. It places believing solidly BEFORE coming (denying your view of "given-to-Jesus-and-THEN-they-believe"), it absolutely affirms "free will" instead of predestionation".

It also denies Lk8:13; they "RECEIVED the message with joy, and BELIEVED".
But it's not a real warning to you --- it cannot ever HAPPEN in your view.

You see this as "the 100% successful MEANS by which GOD perseveres US". And ignores all the verses that charge perseverance TO us. 1Tim4:16 for instance. "Pay close attention to yourself and your teaching, PERSEVERE in these things; for as you DO you will save yourself...."
No straw --- it's a question of ownership.

1. God predestines the-few-whom-HE-chose, and GIFTS faith TO them (God owns our saving-faith, saving-faith flows from God towards man --- it is but the CONSEQUENCE of His regeneration)

2. Saving-faith is charged to US. OUR faith, OUR perseverance, OUR abiding-in-Him. It flows from men's hearts towards God, saving-faith RECEIVES His gift-of-grace (and RECEIVES His regeneration).

"...receiving as the outcome of YOUR FAITH the salvation of your souls..." 1Pet1:9

Which number does Scripture support?
Is salvation the outcome of faith? Or is faith the outcome of predestined-salvation?
Please go ahead. But it will be "re-defined", not "not really obligation but irresistible CONSEQUENCE of God's monergistic choice."

You deny the word "obligation" in Romans8:12, and the following words "if YOU live according to the flesh YOU must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, you WILL live."

You deny the theme of Romans6 --- "CONSIDER yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. DO NOT go on presenting the members of your body as instruments of unrighteousness, BUT present them as instruments of righteousness and YOURSELF as ALIVE FROM THE DEAD."
A couple paragraphs back I gave you two choices. I submit that you WILL choose #1 --- in which case this is not a "straw donkey", but true reflection of your view.

If saving-faith is gifted to us (unasked, monergistically through conspicuous election-and-regeneration), then we ARE "saved by grace through grace".

Such a "monergistic-unasked-gifted-faith" is nothing BUT "further one-sided God's grace".

"By grace (Jesus on the Cross), THROUGH GRACE (monergistic regeneration and GIFTED FAITH) have you been saved..."
But which direction does "instrumental-faith" flow? Man-towards-God? Or God-towards-man? In other words, does MAN'S faith receive God's grace? Or does God's grace cause/lead-to/CONSEQUENT-IN saving-faith?

Which is the ownership?
You're conflicted. The Creator (Jesus) can be known through His creation (Rom1:20); but Rm10:14 plainly says "HOW shall they believe, WITHOUT a preacher"? The conflict is that you see belief as the CONSEQUENCE of God's election; while Scripture says that believing is HINDERED without preachers.

Hindered. Hmmm; did you ever comment on Matt23:13 & Lk11:52? How can one be "hindered/PREVENTED" from being saved, if he is PREDESTINED? How could he be "entering in", if he was NOT predestined? Can you answer that?
Here is your problem; you enthusiastically assert "Man CANNOT believe WITHOUT regeneration, because before regeneration his heart is fully inclined towards sin and towards HATING GOD". But then there are the verses that say "THEY BELIEVED". And you say, "oh they CAN believe but it's a FALSE believe; evidenced by their FALLING-AWAY."

1. No one CAN believe in Jesus, WITHOUT being "pre-chosen" (none seek Him)
2. One CAN believe in Jesus, but it's FALSE belief
3. Those who fall away, had FALSE-belief (never true)
3b. Falling makes evident that their belief WAS false
3c. Perseverance makes evident that their belief was TRUE
3d. Therefore one cannot KNOW whether he's true or false UNTIL HE DIES
4. One who is unelected LOVES darkness and LOVES sin
4b. But one-unelect CAN "escape defilements", THROUGH superficial knowledge of Jesus
4c. ...even though Jesus said "no BAD tree can produce GOOD..."
4d. ...so they weren't really escaped in their HEARTS...
4e. ...anyone who FALLS exposes the fact they were never there in the FIRST place...
4f. ...and all the warnings AGAINST falling, are the effective means to KEEP the chosen FROM falling
4g. ...because the CHOSEN, cannot fall (so they can't be warnings against POSSIBILITY)
5. ONLY belief flows from God's choice and monergistic-regeneration
5b. ONLY unbelief flows from God's not-choosing and their unavoidable depravity
5c. But those unchosen CAN "receive Jesus' Gospel with joy and BELIEVE"...
5d. ...but it's FALSE belief because they FALL....
5e. ...those WHO persevere and bear fruit do so UNAVOIDABLY, because of His choice...
5f. ...and verses that say "salvation is OUTCOME of YOUR FAITH" don't really MEAN "your faith/perseverance/endurance has SAVED you"

Is all of this right, Cygnus? Any "straw men", or "misrepresentation"?
But how can "depraved-unelect" man, have ANY faith? Do their hearts ONLY seek sin, or NOT?

And the verses that you propose "FALSE-FAITH" --- what is there in those verses to convey "false-faith"? Isn't that an idea imposed on those verses, by the presumption of predestination? In Heb6:4-6 --- is there anything there that hints of "false-faith"?

•·They were "tasted heavenly-gift/God's-word/powers-to-come" --- if that was only SUPERFICIAL, then did Jesus really TASTE death in Heb2:9? Both passages use "geuomai".

•·It says "once enlightened" --- doesn't this oppose your view of "they only wanted darkness"?

•·It says "metochos-partners of the Holy Spirit". If "metochos" refers to those who PARTNERED in a heavenly calling (Heb3:1), and PARTNERED in Christ (3:14) --- if THOSE TWO occurrances of "metochos" really mean "SAVED", then how can the THIRD "metochos" (which refers to the SPIRIT), not really mean "saved-partners-with-Holy-Spirit"?
But only perseverance proves WHICH faith someone has; "false", or "true".

One must DIE before he can know if he had "false", or "true".
But "they BELIEVED!"

It was a belief that DID NEED God's grace, but it wasn't a belief that God GIFTED. Was it?

What was the difference between the BEGINNING beliefs those who believed (but fell to temptation/persecution/affliction), and those who believed (and bore fruit with perseverance)?

You say "unelect men CANNOT believe". But obviously they CAN. You say "non-perseverance proves their belief wasn't GENUINE. Why?

Paul speaks of "beginning faith to ending faith" in Romans1:17; perseverance is charged to US in 1Tim4:17; salvation is the outcome of OUR FAITH in 1Pet1:9. Why doesn't it all fit, Cygnus? It is OUR faith and OUR perseverance that keeps us in Christ and in salvation; each man can BEGIN in faith (like the Galatians BEGUN in the Spirit! 3:3), but how it ENDS is up to US!!!

Why doesn't that make sense to you?
So many verses admonish against being "hindered/destroyed/ruined/overthrown/gone-astray/wandered/shipwrecked faith". And those verses use terms like "for WHOM Christ DIED".

How can "for whom Christ DIED", reflect those who didn't really ever BELONG?

If only "bad-rotten-things" come from the unregenerate, then what is the dynamic in 2Pet2? Can someone "escape defilements through the epignosis-true-knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ", but "never-be-saved"?

Ben, you are the MASTER of the re-definition, and you also regularly insert words and re-word scriptures to make them conform to your beliefs.

This is painfully evident and an on-going problem that you apparently are powerless to correct in yourself. Not only that, it is manifestly obvious that you do not really read, assimilate, and understand what others post to you in the way of correction, but simply repeat your view, and don't truly consider what the other says.

I will ask you one simple question:

Do you know the difference between preserve, and persevere?

(large fonts used to be sure you can see the difference in spelling)


You constantly mis-state the difference between these two words, and falsely accuse Calvinists of believe that God perseveres us, rather than preserves us.

Now will you be honest and admit that you have mis-applied and falsely attributed the wrong word when supposedly re-stating Calvinist belief?

 

[cygnusx1]

The basic elements of Calvinism are missing.
You just ignored (again) what I said about your citation; and then as usual the same assertion will recur. Jesus did NOT say "you don't believe in Me because you are not predestined", He said "you don't believe in My Messiahship because you are not of My sheep". And verse 9 says "anyone who BELIEVES in Me, becomes My sheep". You're gonna hafta change that into "If anyone-predestined (so it doesn't MEAN if, it's CERTAIN) enters through Me he shall be saved (well of COURSE he will, he's predestined) --- and will go in and out and find pasture (oh this doesn't say 'BECOME sheep', they were sheep BEFORE they were saved...)."

By saying "men prefer darkness", you assert "men cannot (will not) believe, because they're completely corrupt and HATE God, never SEEK Him, their hearts only pursue sin and unrighteousness".

Denying Heb11:6 ("without faith it is impossible to please God [wait --- why would he WRITE this is saving-faith was GIFTED to God's PREDESTINED???]; for he who COMES to God must believe God exists, and that God is a rewarder of him who SEEKS Him"). That verse places "seeking", as CAUSAL to God's favor. It places believing solidly BEFORE coming (denying your view of "given-to-Jesus-and-THEN-they-believe"), it absolutely affirms "free will" instead of predestionation".

It also denies Lk8:13; they "RECEIVED the message with joy, and BELIEVED".
But it's not a real warning to you --- it cannot ever HAPPEN in your view.

You see this as "the 100% successful MEANS by which GOD perseveres US". And ignores all the verses that charge perseverance TO us. 1Tim4:16 for instance. "Pay close attention to yourself and your teaching, PERSEVERE in these things; for as you DO you will save yourself...."
No straw --- it's a question of ownership.

1. God predestines the-few-whom-HE-chose, and GIFTS faith TO them (God owns our saving-faith, saving-faith flows from God towards man --- it is but the CONSEQUENCE of His regeneration)

2. Saving-faith is charged to US. OUR faith, OUR perseverance, OUR abiding-in-Him. It flows from men's hearts towards God, saving-faith RECEIVES His gift-of-grace (and RECEIVES His regeneration).

"...receiving as the outcome of YOUR FAITH the salvation of your souls..." 1Pet1:9

Which number does Scripture support?
Is salvation the outcome of faith? Or is faith the outcome of predestined-salvation?
Please go ahead. But it will be "re-defined", not "not really obligation but irresistible CONSEQUENCE of God's monergistic choice."

You deny the word "obligation" in Romans8:12, and the following words "if YOU live according to the flesh YOU must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, you WILL live."

You deny the theme of Romans6 --- "CONSIDER yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. DO NOT go on presenting the members of your body as instruments of unrighteousness, BUT present them as instruments of righteousness and YOURSELF as ALIVE FROM THE DEAD."
A couple paragraphs back I gave you two choices. I submit that you WILL choose #1 --- in which case this is not a "straw donkey", but true reflection of your view.

If saving-faith is gifted to us (unasked, monergistically through conspicuous election-and-regeneration), then we ARE "saved by grace through grace".

Such a "monergistic-unasked-gifted-faith" is nothing BUT "further one-sided God's grace".

"By grace (Jesus on the Cross), THROUGH GRACE (monergistic regeneration and GIFTED FAITH) have you been saved..."
But which direction does "instrumental-faith" flow? Man-towards-God? Or God-towards-man? In other words, does MAN'S faith receive God's grace? Or does God's grace cause/lead-to/CONSEQUENT-IN saving-faith?

Which is the ownership?
You're conflicted. The Creator (Jesus) can be known through His creation (Rom1:20); but Rm10:14 plainly says "HOW shall they believe, WITHOUT a preacher"? The conflict is that you see belief as the CONSEQUENCE of God's election; while Scripture says that believing is HINDERED without preachers.

Hindered. Hmmm; did you ever comment on Matt23:13 & Lk11:52? How can one be "hindered/PREVENTED" from being saved, if he is PREDESTINED? How could he be "entering in", if he was NOT predestined? Can you answer that?
Here is your problem; you enthusiastically assert "Man CANNOT believe WITHOUT regeneration, because before regeneration his heart is fully inclined towards sin and towards HATING GOD". But then there are the verses that say "THEY BELIEVED". And you say, "oh they CAN believe but it's a FALSE believe; evidenced by their FALLING-AWAY."

1. No one CAN believe in Jesus, WITHOUT being "pre-chosen" (none seek Him)
2. One CAN believe in Jesus, but it's FALSE belief
3. Those who fall away, had FALSE-belief (never true)
3b. Falling makes evident that their belief WAS false
3c. Perseverance makes evident that their belief was TRUE
3d. Therefore one cannot KNOW whether he's true or false UNTIL HE DIES
4. One who is unelected LOVES darkness and LOVES sin
4b. But one-unelect CAN "escape defilements", THROUGH superficial knowledge of Jesus
4c. ...even though Jesus said "no BAD tree can produce GOOD..."
4d. ...so they weren't really escaped in their HEARTS...
4e. ...anyone who FALLS exposes the fact they were never there in the FIRST place...
4f. ...and all the warnings AGAINST falling, are the effective means to KEEP the chosen FROM falling
4g. ...because the CHOSEN, cannot fall (so they can't be warnings against POSSIBILITY)
5. ONLY belief flows from God's choice and monergistic-regeneration
5b. ONLY unbelief flows from God's not-choosing and their unavoidable depravity
5c. But those unchosen CAN "receive Jesus' Gospel with joy and BELIEVE"...
5d. ...but it's FALSE belief because they FALL....
5e. ...those WHO persevere and bear fruit do so UNAVOIDABLY, because of His choice...
5f. ...and verses that say "salvation is OUTCOME of YOUR FAITH" don't really MEAN "your faith/perseverance/endurance has SAVED you"

Is all of this right, Cygnus? Any "straw men", or "misrepresentation"?
But how can "depraved-unelect" man, have ANY faith? Do their hearts ONLY seek sin, or NOT?

And the verses that you propose "FALSE-FAITH" --- what is there in those verses to convey "false-faith"? Isn't that an idea imposed on those verses, by the presumption of predestination? In Heb6:4-6 --- is there anything there that hints of "false-faith"?

•·They were "tasted heavenly-gift/God's-word/powers-to-come" --- if that was only SUPERFICIAL, then did Jesus really TASTE death in Heb2:9? Both passages use "geuomai".

•·It says "once enlightened" --- doesn't this oppose your view of "they only wanted darkness"?

•·It says "metochos-partners of the Holy Spirit". If "metochos" refers to those who PARTNERED in a heavenly calling (Heb3:1), and PARTNERED in Christ (3:14) --- if THOSE TWO occurrances of "metochos" really mean "SAVED", then how can the THIRD "metochos" (which refers to the SPIRIT), not really mean "saved-partners-with-Holy-Spirit"?
But only perseverance proves WHICH faith someone has; "false", or "true".

One must DIE before he can know if he had "false", or "true".
But "they BELIEVED!"

It was a belief that DID NEED God's grace, but it wasn't a belief that God GIFTED. Was it?

What was the difference between the BEGINNING beliefs those who believed (but fell to temptation/persecution/affliction), and those who believed (and bore fruit with perseverance)?

You say "unelect men CANNOT believe". But obviously they CAN. You say "non-perseverance proves their belief wasn't GENUINE. Why?

Paul speaks of "beginning faith to ending faith" in Romans1:17; perseverance is charged to US in 1Tim4:17; salvation is the outcome of OUR FAITH in 1Pet1:9. Why doesn't it all fit, Cygnus? It is OUR faith and OUR perseverance that keeps us in Christ and in salvation; each man can BEGIN in faith (like the Galatians BEGUN in the Spirit! 3:3), but how it ENDS is up to US!!!

Why doesn't that make sense to you?
So many verses admonish against being "hindered/destroyed/ruined/overthrown/gone-astray/wandered/shipwrecked faith". And those verses use terms like "for WHOM Christ DIED".

How can "for whom Christ DIED", reflect those who didn't really ever BELONG?

If only "bad-rotten-things" come from the unregenerate, then what is the dynamic in 2Pet2? Can someone "escape defilements through the epignosis-true-knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ", but "never-be-saved"?

I am sorry ben , perhaps you didn't read what I said , maybe you didn't understand it (less likely)

here we are ,

"your logic is disintigrating , we are saved by Grace (first primary cause) through faith (instrumental cause) unto good works (evidential cause) .......... clear enough for you" ?


so cut the putting words into a brothers mouth saying nonsense like 'saved by grace through grace '.......... that is a 'benism' ........... a faulty , illogical , fanciful straw DONKEY!

If you would like another game try chess......... it is super!

 

[holdon]

this is the Divine order ........... this is clear as crystal .

1 John 5:1 - "everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God"

Notice that prior to faith is a statement of fact showing the foundation of the Christians faith .

No, it doesn't say that at all. It simply says that everyone who believes Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. It is not "everyone who believes that water is wet, has been born of God. Nor: "everyone who believes Calvinism is right, has been born of God." Not at all. But it doesn't say that one has to be born of God in order to believe. That's just a calvitwist...

It is pointless arguing that these are merely unrelated facts like a list

I didn't say that at all. I guess you can't understand. But 1 Jn 5:1 doesn't say anything how one came to believe in the first place. It does NOT say that one has to be born of God in order to believe. For that you have 1 Jn 5:10 He that believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself; he that does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed . Please look at that last verb: HAS NOT BELIEVED. What has he not believed?: the witness that God gave concerning His Son.

unless you want to argue (against scripture) that Simon Magus was born -again ............... he believed and subsequently proved he was clearly unregenerate!

What?? It was you who brought up Simon Magus believing. Since you argue that one cannot believe unless regenerated first, you must conclude that Simon was regenerated..... But I agree with you that he was not. So, we have proof that your argument is defective: it is not true that regeneration precedes faith. That is just a calvitwist.

 

[holdon]

no it is not an if ..... then ..... .

it is a stated fact that everyone who believes in Christ (present tense) has (past tense) been born of God.

See my other post: Has believed (perfectum). In other words: one believes at some point (perfectum: see vs 10) then one is born of God vs 1. How do we know: because he believes (now presently) that Jesus is the Christ.

not at all .......... you are arguing that belief always preceeds regeneration ............. clearly you now wish to make exceptions ......... "only if it is true FAITH DOES IT PRECEDE REGENERATION"

No, it is you making the exception. If per your calvitwist regeneration precedes faith, and that after that regeneration we can have "good faith" and "bad faith", you make regeneration meaningless.
The word of God said that Simon believed. That the masses of Jn 2 believed. That the devil believes..... None are regenerated.... yet believe.

 

[Ben johnson]

That's just a calvitwist...

The word of God said that Simon believed. That the masses of Jn 2 believed. That the devil believes..... None are regenerated.... yet believe.

There are different kinds of belief. The kind of belief demons have, is just assent. The kind of belief that is SAVED, is belief that receives the indwelling person of Jesus.

Per Titus3:5-6 alone, or in conjuction with Acts10 & 11, regeneration is by the "received-through-belief", Spirit.

 

[cygnusx1]

Calvinists have continually maintained that false brethren , false Apostles and false faith exist ....... often this has been disputed in order to save the idea that all who have believed are not secure in salvation but can lose salvation , they may apostasise , ("apostasise from what cygnus" blah blah blah )
here we have the double dealing .............. now out comes the Armininan humanists saying "oh no , not everyone who believes is even saved "

Faith alone cannot be the cause of salvation, for

1. It must be the right kind of faith (spiritual faith from a Spiritual source)

2. It must be an enduring faith (and for all the elect it is )

and no-one has made up their minds to answer is faith a spiritual act yes or no ?


IF ... Faith precedes Regeneration ...


If as it is often claimed that faith preceeds Regeneration , and that regeneration is consequential by being CAUSED by man's faith then man and NOT God determine their own New Birth and it's timing.

Yet this is directly opposed to scripture .........

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. KJV John 1 :13


If man can determine his own rebirth then the activity of being Regenerated is more like a controlled substance instead of the unpredicatable and Sovereign power of the wind as Jesus taught. see John 3


Mercy would no longer be mercy but a debt "you give me faith , and then I give you new birth".......regeneration would then be by human choice instead of by God's Sovereign Choosing .....

Yet again the Bible says God not man governs Election and mercy ...

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. KJV Romans 9:16

 

[Ben johnson]

Faith alone cannot be the cause of salvation, for

1. It must be the right kind of faith (spiritual faith from a Spiritual source)

Saving-faith is from our own hearts[/b]. Says so in Romans10:10: "With the HEART man BELIEVES."

That saving-faith does NOT flow in direction from God-to-man, is clear in many verses; 2Tim3:15 for one. Studying the Scriptures gives wisdom (conviction) which is able to lead to saving-faith in Jesus.

Now throw in Heb11:6: "Without faith it is impossible to please God..." (Why say that, if saving-faith is monergistically-GIFTED by God?)

..."for he who COMES to God..." Which direction is this? God-to-man? Or man-to-God?

..."must believe God IS, and that God is a rewarder of those who SEEK Him."

Oops --- "seek Him and BE saved", not "be saved and seek Him"...

2. It must be an enduring faith (and for all the elect it is )

Actually, no it must not. Those in Luke8:13 began JUST as "saved" as those in Luke8:15. The Galations began saved. Etcetera...

and no-one has made up their minds to answer is faith a spiritual act yes or no ?

Yes AND no. Man has a spirit --- thus believing IS a spiritual act; but it is NOT the kind of thing that only the Holy Spirit can reveal --- because the "spiritual-things-revealed-by-God", is by the RECEIVED Spirit. Col2:12-14

If as it is often claimed that faith preceeds Regeneration , and that regeneration is consequential by being CAUSED by man's faith then man and NOT God determine their own New Birth and it's timing.

There's no "claim", Cygnus; there is Scriptural fact.

Yet this is directly opposed to scripture .........

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. KJV John 1 :13

It's only "directly opposed" to your interpretation.

Verse 13 says "The BEGOTTENNESS is not of us, but of God...."

Verse 12 says "BECOMING begotten (receiving it), is by BELIEVING Jesus and receiving Him.

Heb12 says that we can CHOOSE to His children (submit to His discipline), OR be "illegitimate"...

If man can determine his own rebirth then the activity of being Regenerated is more like a controlled substance instead of the unpredicatable and Sovereign power of the wind as Jesus taught. see John 3

You even misinterpret that. Jesus says, in essence: "You can't see the wind, but know it's real; you can't see spiritual birth EITHER, but it's JUST as real."

Mercy would no longer be mercy but a debt "you give me faith , and then I give you new birth".......regeneration would then be by human choice instead of by God's Sovereign Choosing .....

That's silly. Salvation is "by grace through faith" --- without faith, it is impossible to please God; for he who COMES to God must believe that He IS, and that HE is a rewarder of those who SEEK Him...

Yet again the Bible says God not man governs Election and mercy ...

Oops --- kinda forgot about 2Pet1? "Therefore me must be DILIGENT to make CERTAIN of our calling and ELECTION; for as long as you practice these things you are useful, will not stumble --- and in THIS way the GATES of Heaven will BE (abundantly) provided TO you."
]quote]So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. KJV Romans 9:16[/quote]Wrong, Cygnus; Rom9 is "also Gentiles".

So then (begottenness) is not of men, but of God; if God wants to show mercy to ALL (Rm11), who are YOU to OBJECT (Rm9)?

 

[frumanchu]

There are different kinds of belief. The kind of belief demons have, is just assent. The kind of belief that is SAVED, is belief that receives the indwelling person of Jesus.

LOL!

OK, Ben. Now please show us in Luke 8:13 where there is any differentiation between "the kind of belief demons have" and "the kind of belief that is saved."

 

[holdon]

and no-one has made up their minds to answer is faith a spiritual act yes or no ?

Don't you recognize that "dead man has a spirit"? Far from being "spiritual" according to God, each human has a spirit. Even 1 Cor 2:11 says it: For who of men hath known the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him?

IF ... Faith precedes Regeneration ...


If as it is often claimed that faith preceeds Regeneration , and that regeneration is consequential by being CAUSED by man's faith then man and NOT God determine their own New Birth and it's timing.

And what's wrong with determining it's timing? Nicodemus came at night. Was he regenerated there and then? Maybe not, but he was later a believer. It is the received incorruptible seed, the word of God, that is the seed of the new life. That receiving of the word is the "begetting of God". Then He does His creation work. Otherwise why would He not regenerate everybody? And long time ago?

Yet this is directly opposed to scripture .........

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. KJV John 1 :13

But that is twisting the sense. John 1:12 says "but as many as received Him (the living Word), those He gave the right to be children of God." I don't deny that they were born solely by the will of God. God doesn't owe anything to anybody. But since He is merciful, as many as do receive Him, He does give them that right.... He regenerates them of His own doing. It is all divine life.

If man can determine his own rebirth then the activity of being Regenerated is more like a controlled substance instead of the unpredicatable and Sovereign power of the wind as Jesus taught. see John 3

The wind blows where it wills. And you HEAR its voice.... So is everyone who is born of the Spirit. How can one forget the "hearing" part?? Do you think regeneration possible without hearing the wind (Spirit) blowing?

Mercy would no longer be mercy but a debt "you give me faith , and then I give you new birth".......regeneration would then be by human choice instead of by God's Sovereign Choosing .....

That's such an old straw man. Faith by definition (the "true" kind) counts not on it self, but entirely on God. So, it gives all the glory to God. That is the principle of Faith. Faith is not a work.

Yet again the Bible says God not man governs Election and mercy ...

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. KJV Romans 9:16

But God wants to show mercy to all! See Romans 11:32

"For God hath shut up together (Jews and Gentiles) all in unbelief, in order that he might shew mercy to all."

 

[cygnusx1]

Don't you recognize that "dead man has a spirit"? Far from being "spiritual" according to God, each human has a spirit. Even 1 Cor 2:11 says it: For who of men hath known the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him?

THAT SPIRIT IS LIFELESS , THAT IS WHY MAN NEEDS REGENERATING , LITERALY MADE A NEW CREATION NOT JUST A PATCH UP.

And what's wrong with determining it's timing? Nicodemus came at night. Was he regenerated there and then? Maybe not, but he was later a believer. It is the received incorruptible seed, the word of God, that is the seed of the new life. That receiving of the word is the "begetting of God".

I know all to well that life comes from the word of God , God speaks and it is done , did Lazurus have faith to obey God , and don't say he didn't obey , he did!

Then He does His creation work. Otherwise why would He not regenerate everybody?

Romans 9

And long time ago?But that is twisting the sense. John 1:12 says "but as many as received Him (the living Word), those He gave the right to be children of God."

pardon me if this sounds familiar to you , it should ;


No, it doesn't say that at all. It simply says that everyone who receives Jesus is also granted the right to be a child of God (adoption is in view not regeneration)
"It is not "everyone who believes that water is wet, has been born of God."

I don't deny that they were born solely by the will of God.

but you do deny it , for man by his faith is causing his new birth , rather than the new birth causing his faith.

God doesn't owe anything to anybody. But since He is merciful, as many as do receive Him, He does give them that right....

see above.........

He regenerates them of His own doing. It is all divine life. The wind blows where it wills.

If the anti -Calvinist analogy holds up (it doesn't) then the wind blows where men have faith , and it cannot blow/ be active in regeneration where men have nothing to offer God!

And you HEAR its voice.... So is everyone who is born of the Spirit. How can one forget the "hearing" part?? Do you think regeneration possible without hearing the wind (Spirit) blowing?

again you are looking for order from stated facts ........... of course His sheep here His voice , they are the only one's who do , the goats cannot stand to hear Christ speak , they hate Him enough to want to murder Him.

That's such an old straw man. Faith by definition (the "true" kind) counts not on it self, but entirely on God. So, it gives all the glory to God. That is the principle of Faith. Faith is not a work.

"I don't want to sound disrespectful towards anyone, but this is what I constantly hear, and it is the silliest, most absurd thing one can say. It has no basis in reality. To say it isn't a work, simply because God requires it, despite the essence of idea of belief. It is a verb, an action, it involves some kind of doing. If one denies that a verb is a verb, then there is no basis upon which we can even discuss the matter for language itself has no use at that point."

http://www.sharperiron.org/archive/index.php/t-778.html

But God wants to show mercy to all! See Romans 11:32

"For God hath shut up together (Jews and Gentiles) all in unbelief, in order that he might shew mercy to all."

well you may have a point here , but ben and others don't see this at all , they say God will have , or has had mercy upon all , you have not gone that far , thank God!

 

[holdon]

THAT SPIRIT IS LIFELESS ,

A "lifeless spirit" knows things???

I know all to well that life comes from the word of God , God speaks and it is done , did Lazurus have faith to obey God , and don't say he didn't obey , he did!

Of course you bring up Lazarus. But what has that to do with it??? If you want to apply Jn 5:25 then fine:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that have heard shall live."

Romans 9

Is not an answer why He wouldn't regenerate everybody. He wants to save everyone, so why no regenerate everyone? He wants to show mercy to all, but doesn't. Why?

No, it doesn't say that at all. It simply says that everyone who receives Jesus is also granted the right to be a child of God (adoption is in view not regeneration)
"It is not "everyone who believes that water is wet, has been born of God."

I see that you still don't understand. No problem. Let's say it like this: "everyone who is wet, fell into the water". That's the analogy of 1 Jn 5:1. But it doesnt' say: "how one fell into the water". See, you repeat 1 Jn 5:1, but it doesn't say anything to the fact how one came to be born of God. That if one believes Jesus is the Christ, this means he has been born of God, I have no problem with. But the question we're debating is "how does one become born of God"? I say it is by receiving the word and believing. You say: it just happens and then you start believing. Like you just fall into the water and then you're wet. But how does one fall into the water?

If the anti -Calvinist analogy holds up (it doesn't) then the wind blows where men have faith , and it cannot blow/ be active in regeneration where men have nothing to offer God!

Huh??? Lack of understanding Jn 3.

again you are looking for order from stated facts ........... of course His sheep here His voice , they are the only one's who do , the goats cannot stand to hear Christ speak

What in the world do goats have to do with this?

"I don't want to sound disrespectful towards anyone, but this is what I constantly hear, and it is the silliest, most absurd thing one can say. It has no basis in reality. To say it isn't a work, simply because God requires it, despite the essence of idea of belief. It is a verb, an action, it involves some kind of doing. If one denies that a verb is a verb, then there is no basis upon which we can even discuss the matter for language itself has no use at that point."

Yes, calvinist hanging onto their straws. All that's left over from their strawman. God says "faith is not a work". So, He should know don't you think?

well you may have a point here , but ben and others don't see this at all , they say God will have , or has had mercy upon all , you have not gone that far , thank God!

God wants to have mercy on all. But not all get it. Why? Because all don't receive and believe...

 

[nobdysfool]

God wants to have mercy on all. But not all get it. Why? Because all don't receive and believe...

Poor God! He wants something He apparently cannot get. All because men won't listen....what's a God to do? He must be so frustrated and heartsick...those mean men he created reject Him. The agony He must suffer, because He is powerless to change it!

 

[holdon]

Poor God!

No, He is rich.... in mercy. Eph 2:4.

He wants something He apparently cannot get.

That's right! "how often would I ...., and ye would not!" Mt 23:37

All because men won't listen....what's a God to do? He must be so frustrated and heartsick...those mean men he created reject Him.

Indeed He is.

The agony He must suffer, because He is powerless to change it!

Exactly!

 

[nobdysfool]

No, He is rich.... in mercy. Eph 2:4. That's right! "how often would I ...., and ye would not!" Mt 23:37Indeed He is.Exactly!

So you believe in a heartsick, frustrated, powerless God, who cannot even get what He wants....who is at the mercy of the men He created?

 

[holdon]

So you believe in a heartsick, frustrated, powerless God, who cannot even get what He wants....who is at the mercy of the men He created?

Yes, I believe that God is "heartsick and frustrated" in a certain sense.
No, I don't believe He is powerless at all.
Yes, I believe He cannot get what He wants so much...
No, don't believe He is at the mercy of the men. Rather men are at the mercy of Him...