Do seekers find? Or do only "founders", seek?

[Ben johnson]

"IF they were of us THEN they would have continued with us."

NOT "If they are of us then they will continue with us."

Peter makes it EXPLICITLY CLEAR that they were never believers. Only blatant and eggregious exegesis says otherwise. It worries me that your conscience is not screaming at you for contorting and mangling the infallible and inspired Word of God the way you are, Ben.

Not "explicitly clear NEVER", Fru. Only blatant and eggregious exegesis would impose a "NEVER", when it's not there in the text.

"They went out from us, in order that it might be shown that they are all not of us."

Easily accommodates "they were not of us, WHEN they left". Easily accepts that they COULD have been OF us, once upon a time.

The context of 1Jn2 calls them "antichrists"; that might mean "never did believe", but it also accommodated "they don't believe NOW, but they once DID."

Like the man in Heb10:29 --- he was once "sanctified by Jesus' blood"...

I've already directly and specifically addressed every single one of those arguments. You're wrong. Period.

You didn't convince me that my understanding, is wrong. It seems clear to me that Peter is saying, in ch1, "be diligent to make sure of your calling and election, that godly fruits are yours, ....SO THAT the gates of Heaven BE provided to you." Especially with the included contrast of "the man who LACKS godly fruits, thus has FORGOTTEN former purification".

Ch2 asserts the FALSE (with a lengthy detailed description of just how WICKED they ARE --- "NEVER cease from sin!") --- tempt the TRULY-escaped. Then he speaks OF the "escaped" (through the true knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who had KNOWN the way of righteousness) --- but they then return TO the defilements (turn away FROM the way of righteousness).

How can it be anything but "blatant and eggregious exegesis", to assert that the "NEVER-CEASE-SIN-SLAVES-CORRUPTION" (who spend ALL DAY carousing and adulterating) --- that these "ultimate-wicked-men", ESCAPED defilements in ANY way? Or to deny that they "KNEW the way of righteousness, but having KNOWN it, to have turned away FROM it?

That's all that needs be said. You point the finger at me for advocating and abrupt subject chance when YOU are the person advocating one, not me. One would have to ASSUME your subject change in order to argue that I changed BACK to the original subject in v20.

You've admitted that verse 18 speaks of "FALSE", enticing "TRUE".

Actually, the "false" entice the "true", in verse 18, AND in verse 14! You would change the whole passage!

What you assert is a subject change. You cannot deny that the FALSE, try to deceive the TRUE ("truly escaped", or "barely escaped"). One would have to assume that the false were NOT enticing/deceiving the true, to misunderstand that the FALSE (never-cease-sin! carouse/adulterate-ALL-DAY!) somehow were described as ESCAPED-defilements.

The false didn't escape nuthin', Fru. "Slaves of corruption. They ENTICE UNSTABLE SOULS (14), they entice those who have TRULY escaped!

For (because of temptations by the FALSE) if after ESCAPING, they are again entangled in defilements (FALL to the false's deceptions!) and OVERCOME, they are worse than BEFORE they had KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS!!!!!"

Of course it proves it to you, because you have a vain human philosophy you're holding onto steadfastly against God's truth, and you're clearly bent on doing anything you can to force Scripture to support it, even when Scripture explicitly contradicts it.

We need outside input.

To other readers --- does what I just said make sense? Or is it "explicity against Scripture"?

That's because you're blinded by your own false teachings to what Scripture actually says. I continue to pray that you be healed of this blindness and that your false teachings not lead others astray from the truth.

Wait --- what do you mean? The predestined can NOT be "led astray from the truth". Right?

If anyone IS "led astray", then they were never elect in the FIRST place. (And then how could someone be CONDEMNED, for being only the MEANS by which the UNCHOSEN, then fulfil the condemnation that God has PREDESTINED?)

 

[frumanchu]

Not "explicitly clear NEVER", Fru. Only blatant and eggregious exegesis would impose a "NEVER", when it's not there in the text.

"IF they were of us, THEN they would have continued with us."

It can't be stated any more plainly, Ben. You are willfully ignorant of the truth. There's no other way to say it.

You didn't convince me that my understanding, is wrong.

That's because nothing short of God's almighty power can break through the willfull ignorance you are engaged in. At this point I'm simply doing my best to see that you do not deceive others into believing these unbiblical errors. If at some point you too are finally convinced of the truth, I will rejoice all the more. Until then, I will continue to confront your false doctrines at every turn.

How can it be anything but "blatant and eggregious exegesis", to assert that the "NEVER-CEASE-SIN-SLAVES-CORRUPTION" (who spend ALL DAY carousing and adulterating) --- that these "ultimate-wicked-men", ESCAPED defilements in ANY way? Or to deny that they "KNEW the way of righteousness, but having KNOWN it, to have turned away FROM it?

There's this group called the Pharisees..................

Never mind. What did Jesus know, anyway? </sarcasm>

We need outside input.

To other readers --- does what I just said make sense? Or is it "explicity against Scripture"?

I don't care if every poster in this forum says you're right (which would be the pinacle of human foolishness), it still does not change the fact that you are blatantly and willfully twisting the Word of God into your man-made philosophy. I would be failing in my duties if I did not warn you just how serious that is and remind you of the fact that we will be called to account for every idle word we speak.

Wait --- what do you mean? The predestined can NOT be "led astray from the truth". Right?

Fortunately for you, your paradigm is false and by God's grace you can be saved despite your false teachings, even though you may suffer loss for them. See 1 Cor 3:15

 

[Ben johnson]

"IF they were of us, THEN they would have continued with us."

Try it this way:

Say two of 'em BELIEVED; and journeyed WITH the Disciples. With me so far???

Now, let's say those two came to DISBELIEF. The two no LONGER journeyed with the Disciples (not spiritually, anyway). OK?

THEN --- the two, went out FROM them.

Do you see? "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us."

It works, Fru. At the time they "went out", they "WERE not 'of them'."

But that doesn't deny the possibility, that once-upon-a-time, they WERE.

So you see, in this hypothetical, there are two "WERE's". Each describing a different segment in time.

...and that verse does NOT say "all who go out, were never OF us". It does NOT prove "even in THAT instance, those were NEVER of us".

It can't be stated any more plainly, Ben. You are willfully ignorant of the truth. There's no other way to say it.

Yes it could (be stated more plainly), Fru; it COULD say, "never were of us".

That's because nothing short of God's almighty power can break through the willfull ignorance you are engaged in. At this point I'm simply doing my best to see that you do not deceive others into believing these unbiblical errors.

Deceive others? With SCRIPTURE?

If at some point you too are finally convinced of the truth, I will rejoice all the more. Until then, I will continue to confront your false doctrines at every turn.

But you haven't credibly confronted me at all. Let's see if someone will reply to post #141, and give opinions as to which view is credible.

There's this group called the Pharisees..................

Never mind. What did Jesus know, anyway?

There's nothing in the context to imply "Pharisees escaped only SUPERFICIALLY".

It says, "false entice the WEAK". Vs14
It says, "false entice the TRULY escaped". Vs18
It says, "for IF, after having ESCAPED the defilements through the TRUE-knowledge of the LORD and SAVIOR Jesus, they are again entangled in defilements and OVERCOME... far better to have never KNOWN the way of righteousness, than having known to have turned away from the holy commandment..."

You say: "They escaped only OUTWARDLY" (that means, PUBLICLY, they were NOT dwelling in defilements)

Scripture says "NEVER CEASE SIN"; "carouse-adulterate ALL DAY!!!" That conflicts with "escaped OUTWARDLY".

You say "it wasn't SAVED-knowledge, it was only HEAD-knowldge of Jesus". I don't see that in Peter's words.

I don't care if every poster in this forum says you're right (which would be the pinacle of human foolishness), it still does not change the fact that you are blatantly and willfully twisting the Word of God into your man-made philosophy. I would be failing in my duties if I did not warn you just how serious that is and remind you of the fact that we will be called to account for every idle word we speak.

Unless you have "perfect understanding" (no man does, until Jesus comes) --- then I would gently admonish you to consider that it could be YOU who "twists the word of God"....

Fortunately for you, your paradigm is false and by God's grace you can be saved despite your false teachings, even though you may suffer loss for them. See 1 Cor 3:15

I don't think you have overturned my position; if you had, then I would willingly have accepted it.

What I believe, follows the simplicity of Scripture. "Brethren" means "Brethren" in both places in Heb3 (nothing in the context suggests otherwise --- only in an external view of "Predestination"). Those in James5:19-20 surely DO "wander away from the faith" --- again, simplicity recognizes it's addressed to "SAVED-brethren".

And simplicity regognizes that "soul-death" (psuche-thanatos), really means "unsaved". And "uncovered sins" (unforgiven), ALSO means "unsaved".

I could go on; citing verse after verse after verse --- that, if I WAS to embrace Calvinism, would require outside understanding to know WHICH "brethren" is SAVED, and which is NOT.

Your whole doctrine is based on just a few passages; the start of Eph1, parts of Romans9, a verse or two from Romans8. I've demonstrated how those passages do NOT support "predestination", but rather "responsibility". You've been given verse after verse after verse that does NOT incline towards "predestined-election".

You have nothing that proves "regeneration-BEFORE-belief"; you've been shown many that say the reverse.

On what grounds do you call "Responsible Grace", false doctrine? I've proven EVERY point, with Scripture. And all the verses fit together perfectly.

Yours do not.

Yours assert "man cannot believe in God-whom-he-HATES". But then you back-pedal and say, "Well, there is a SUPERFICIAL belief; but it's not REAL because they fall away."

I really believe that some day you'll recognize your "proving the conclusion by the presumption".

"But the Spirit explicitly says that in later days, some will FALL AWAY FROM THE FAITH, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons." 1Tim4:1

That's why I participate, Fru; correctly recognizing the true warning against "falling-from-faith-TO-deception", I convey the true warnings of Scripture, offer encouragement to those who ARE struggling, and sincerely challenge EACH to "throw himself (herself?) on Jesus' strength and power".

We are responsible, Fru. We are accountable --- for whether we BELIEVE, or NOT.

We are not saved JUST by faith --- we are saved by beginning faith to ENDING faith.

The RIGHTEOUS, shall live by FAITH.

"We must pay close attention to what we have heard; how shall WE escape if we neglect so great a salvation?" Heb2:1-3

"Pay close attention to yourself and your teaching; (you!) persevere in these things; for as you DO, you will save yourself and those who hear you..." 1Tim4:16

That's my motivation. To encourage (saved!) brothers and sisters, to persevere; to grow STRONG in Him.

Even if I am WRONG, the only HARM done by my "errant and false teachings", is only to STRENGTHEN myself and my listeners, in CHRIST.

If YOUR view is wrong, then perhaps someone will NOT be as diligent; perhaps NOT be as watchful; perhaps NOT be as obedient.

...perhaps NOT be as saved...

"...if this plan should be of men, it will be overthrown; but if it is of GOd, you will NOT be able to overthrow it, and you might be found fighting against GOD." Gamaliel, in Acts5:38-39

I mean no offense whatsoever to you, Fru, in the quotation of Gamaliel's words...

 

[frumanchu]

But you haven't credibly confronted me at all.

When you hold your own standards up as your definition of credibility, it's really easy to dismiss other people's argument as less than credible, no matter how sound and true they are.

Let's see if someone will reply to post #141, and give opinions as to which view is credible.

This is simply unbelievable. You carelessly dismiss dozens of scholars and 2000 years of church history without blinking an eye....but now you want to appeal to the opinions of CF posters as to whether your view is credible?

That in and of itself speaks volumes about how unstable your doctrines are.

There's nothing in the context to imply "Pharisees escaped only SUPERFICIALLY".

Ben, would you please explain to all those whose opinions you are now seeking just exactly what Jesus meant when He referred to the Pharisees as "whited sepulchres?"

You say: "They escaped only OUTWARDLY" (that means, PUBLICLY, they were NOT dwelling in defilements)

Scripture says "NEVER CEASE SIN"; "carouse-adulterate ALL DAY!!!" That conflicts with "escaped OUTWARDLY".

Actually, Scripture says:

"They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions,while they feast with you. They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. "

You make it sound as though they are blatantly, openly, outwardly sinning constantly...but that's not what it says (as usual).

You say "it wasn't SAVED-knowledge, it was only HEAD-knowldge of Jesus". I don't see that in Peter's words.

Of course you don't. It's in your own vested interest NOT to see it. As usual, you take necessary conditions and make them sufficient conditions so that you can prove that people lost a salvation that there was no guarantee they ever had in the first place!

Unless you have "perfect understanding" (no man does, until Jesus comes) --- then I would gently admonish you to consider that it could be YOU who "twists the word of God"....

I don't claim to have a perfect understanding, just a more rational, Scriptural, reasonable one than you

I don't think you have overturned my position; if you had, then I would willingly have accepted it.

No, not if you had a vested interest in upholding your position. Whether or not I have overturned your position does not depend on whether or not you accept it.

What I believe, follows the simplicity of Scripture. "Brethren" means "Brethren" in both places in Heb3 (nothing in the context suggests otherwise --- only in an external view of "Predestination"). Those in James5:19-20 surely DO "wander away from the faith" --- again, simplicity recognizes it's addressed to "SAVED-brethren".

And simplicity regognizes that "soul-death" (psuche-thanatos), really means "unsaved". And "uncovered sins" (unforgiven), ALSO means "unsaved".

I could go on; citing verse after verse after verse --- that, if I WAS to embrace Calvinism, would require outside understanding to know WHICH "brethren" is SAVED, and which is NOT.

No, Ben. That's the problem. The "simplicity" of your doctrine has to do with ignoring context, grammar, and logic so that it's "simpler" to support your presuppositions.

Your whole doctrine is based on just a few passages; the start of Eph1, parts of Romans9, a verse or two from Romans8. I've demonstrated how those passages do NOT support "predestination", but rather "responsibility". You've been given verse after verse after verse that does NOT incline towards "predestined-election".

LOL! Ben, I have a whole heck of a lot more than a few scattered verses to base my doctrine upon. And I've seen your supposed demonstrations. They're nothing more than a sales pitch for snake oil.

On what grounds do you call "Responsible Grace", false doctrine? I've proven EVERY point, with Scripture. And all the verses fit together perfectly. Yours do not.

On the grounds that it is built upon the repeated contortion of Scriptures and denial of basic hermaneutical and logical principles, all of which I have posted over and over and over again. You have provided Scripture for every point, and in every case I have shown with meticulous detail how you are engaged in blatant eisegesis and how you have a complete and utter lack of understanding of basic logic. All you've done in cramming these verses together is create a Frankenstein's monster of a theology.

I really believe that some day you'll recognize your "proving the conclusion by the presumption".

I'm really unsure that you'll ever see how completely transparent and utterly foolish your teachings are until you are standing face to face with the One whose words you are mangling.

Even if I am WRONG, the only HARM done by my "errant and false teachings", is only to STRENGTHEN myself and my listeners, in CHRIST.

"Shall we sin that grace may abound all the more?"

 

[cygnusx1]

Doesn't say "regeneration first, then faith". Sorry, try again.See verse 12 when they are born: "but as many as received him, to them gave he ...."

And, again, as Paul says, "it depends not on him who wills or runs, but on God's mercy" (Rom 9:16).[/quote]It has nothing to do with running, but believing, receiving, repenting. Not on the basis of works (running) but on the basis of mercy and grace.Where Christ is presented as the object of faith: "on Him". That object is God's gift. But where does it say here that "regeneration precedes faith"???But that's is contrary to "regeneration precedes faith", because it is clearly the word of truth that is the seed needing to be received, before the conception. (see the parallel with verse 15)What has this to do with "regeneration". Didn't He say: "I chose you twelve and one of you is a devil"?Again, what has this to do with "regeneration"? Lydia was already a believer.Again, what has this to do with "regeneration before faith"? See the next verse:
"Come to me, all ye who labour and are burdened, and I will give you rest."Ok, this is verse about "giving life (eternal). But it still doesn't say anything about "life preceding faith". And aren't all things given to Him. See your text in Mt 11:27. But look also at 17:12 "those thou hast given me ..., but the son of perdition" Judas was given to Him, but did not have eternal life..... So, the giving of the Father to the Son, does not necessarily imply eternal life.... So, how does this prove that "regeneration precedes faith"?? Isn't it clear that the "instructing" of such is the means to them acknowledging the truth. Isn't it faith in that truth that makes them repent? How can one repent (change his mind) if he is not presented with truth, and if he does not believe that truth?

"According to his own will begat he us by the word of truth"[/quote]


apart from disagreeing with your explanations , the whole thing is simple really , the flesh profits nothing only the Spirit brings life , unregenerate man is in the flesh , he sins and sins and even his good works are sin , the whole of our currency as regenerate children is faith , the Lord has seen fit to recognise no other currency , with differing amounts of faith we relate to The Lord , some are granted more faith than others , but all are granted a measure of faith (see Romans 12) no-one argues that the talents (faith) are not given by the Lord , it is almost beyond belief why anyone should argue that faith (talents) are not granted but are inherently ours !

The act of faith is a spiritual act , ordinarily fallen man does not do spiritual acts , he does that which pleases his flesh , because he is in the flesh .... and because he is located in the flesh he cannot please God .......... that means quite simply he MUST BE BORN AGAIN TO SEE THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN .

Why else must man be born again !!!


A man who is not born of the Spirit cannot discern the things of the Spirit , they are foolishness to him , but once a man has been delivered from the realms of the flesh where nothing good dwells , and delivered into the Spiritual , then and only then can he do anything spiritual ............. Nichodemus although a Biblical scholar of many years didn't know this , he assumed that whatever God requires , must mean all men can perform it .......... wrong!!!

Some think saving faith can be seperated from Regeneration and that a person may be in posession of saving faith before regeneration , this is absurd and clearly against scripture.
1 John 5

1Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him:

Notice the clear order faith follows from the New Birth!

 

[Ben johnson]

, but all are granted a measure of faith (see Romans 12) no-one argues that the talents (faith) are not given by the Lord , it is almost beyond belief why anyone should argue that faith (talents) are not granted but ours !

Wrong. "I urge you, BRETHREN, to present your bodies as a living and holy sacrifice (walk in Christ, which is life; DON'T walk in the flesh, which is death! DON'T go on presenting your bodies to sin, but present yourselves to God as alive from the dead... Rm6). For through the grace given to me... God has allotted to each man a measure of faith."

"Each man", here, refers to BELIEVERS. You see "God has allotted a measure of SAVING-FAITH". Not what it says. Saving-faith was PRIOR.

Same idea behind 1Cor12:9; there is a spiritual GIFT of faith, which ONE (believer) has while ANOTHER (believer) has not.

The act of faith is a spiritual act , ordinarily fallen man does not do spiritual acts , he does that which pleases his flesh , because he is in the flesh .... and because he is located in the flesh he cannot please God .......... that means quite simply he MUST BE BORN AGAIN TO SEE THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN .

Where in Scripture does it say that?

Not 1Cor2:14; because the Spirit's revelation of "God's knowledge", is by the RECEIVED (by belief!) Spirit (verse 12!).

Not 2Cor1:3-4, because 2Cor3:14 says "turn to God and THEN the veil is removed"!

Where do you find Scriptural support for your premise?

And once again Calvinism asserts "unregenerate man CANNOT believe, because belief is something God GIFTS".

In Luke8:13, they "received the Word with joy, and believed."

Didn't they?

Nichodemus although a Biblical scholar of many years didn't know this , he assumed that whatever God requires , must mean all men can perform it .......... wrong!!!

John3:10 conveys Jesus as ASTONISHED that Nick did NOT know. (The verse was a rebuke to Nick, for NOT knowing.)

In no way was Jesus saying "of course you don't know, God must reveal it exclusively to the ELECT."

Jesus mildly-rebuked Nick for not knowing the theme of Scripture.
Jesus rebuked Jews for REFUSING to believe (Jn5:39-47)
Jesus rebuked Chorazin and Bethsaida and Capernaum for REFUSING to believe (Matt11:21-24)
Jesus rebuked Pharisees BOTH for refusing to believe, AND for preventing OTHERS FROM believing! (Matt23:13, Lk11:52)

....and in the face of all that, you still see "saving-faith as a monergistic and exclusive, GIFT".

With respect, Cygnus, how is that "one-sided-gift" view, not a glaring contradiction?

 

[holdon]

Some think saving faith can be seperated from Regeneration and that a person may be in posession of saving faith before regeneration , this is absurd and clearly against scripture.

Some think that one can be regenerated before having "saving faith" and that is absurd. "he that believeth not...."

1 John 5

1Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him:

Notice the clear order faith follows from the New Birth!

There is no order at all! It is just a demonstration of a fact: he that is believing has been begotten of God. It doesn't say anything about HOW one became to be begotten of God. We know how that happens though:

"being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the living and abiding word of God. "
"According to his own will begat he us by the word of truth,"
"and ye have not his word abiding in you; for whom he hath sent, him ye do not believe.
Ye search the scriptures, for ye think that in them ye have life eternal, and they it is which bear witness concerning me; and ye will not come to me that ye might have life. "
"He that believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself; he that does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the witness which God has witnessed concerning his Son. And this is the witness, that God has given to us eternal life; and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life: he that has not the Son of God has not life. These things have I written to you that ye may know that ye have eternal life who believe on the name of the Son of God. "

It is clear that the witness is "eternal life", not "belief". The witness is a proof. So, belief comes first, then eternal life as proof.
Calvinists twist the Word of God.

 

[Ben johnson]

This is simply unbelievable. You carelessly dismiss dozens of scholars and 2000 years of church history without blinking an eye....but now you want to appeal to the opinions of CF posters as to whether your view is credible?

Fru --- just when in that "two thousand year span", did the idea of "once saved always saved", first occur? It's not really that old...

Ben, would you please explain to all those whose opinions you are now seeking just exactly what Jesus meant when He referred to the Pharisees as "whited sepulchres?"

Did the Pharisees revel all day, delight in their lust, dedicated to sensuality and fleshly sins?

You deny that the entire chapter contrasts the "false", with the "true". In verse 5, God preserved Noah, "a preacher of righteousness". In verse 9, "The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation". The warning is against "false teachers among YOU! So that "if after having ESCAPED defilements through the TRUE knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled and overcome" --- is conveying "YOU will be THEY, if you are not DILIGENT".

That's the theme of the whole letter, Fru.

Of course you don't. It's in your own vested interest NOT to see it. As usual, you take necessary conditions and make them sufficient conditions so that you can prove that people lost a salvation that there was no guarantee they ever had in the first place!

It wouldn't matter. We discussed the Galatians (begun in the Spirit, obeying the truth and running well, KNOWN by God) --- then they turned away from Him and back to Law; they were severed from Christ (apo-katargeo severed/separated), and fallen from grace (ekpipto charis). It didn't convince you --- you have an understanding all worked out as to why they did NOT fall from salvation.

No, not if you had a vested interest in upholding your position. Whether or not I have overturned your position does not depend on whether or not you accept it.

And vice-versa.

"Shall we sin that grace may abound all the more?"

Kindly do me a favor, and tell me how "Responsible Grace", is sin...

 

[frumanchu]

Kindly do me a favor, and tell me how "Responsible Grace", is sin...

You said:
Even if I am WRONG, the only HARM done by my "errant and false teachings", is only to STRENGTHEN myself and my listeners, in CHRIST.
How is it not sin if you are promoting something other than God's truth? You are basically saying that even if you're preaching the opposite of what God said in His Word, it's somehow OK because some may be strengthened by it.

IOW, the end justifies the means.

Hence my invocation of Paul's rhetorical question:

"Shall we sin that grace may abound all the more?"

 

[cygnusx1]

Some think that one can be regenerated before having "saving faith" and that is absurd. "he that believeth not...."There is no order at all! It is just a demonstration of a fact: he that is believing has been begotten of God. It doesn't say anything about HOW one became to be begotten of God. We know how that happens though:

"being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the living and abiding word of God. "
"According to his own will begat he us by the word of truth,"
"and ye have not his word abiding in you; for whom he hath sent, him ye do not believe.
Ye search the scriptures, for ye think that in them ye have life eternal, and they it is which bear witness concerning me; and ye will not come to me that ye might have life. "
"He that believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself; he that does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the witness which God has witnessed concerning his Son. And this is the witness, that God has given to us eternal life; and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life: he that has not the Son of God has not life. These things have I written to you that ye may know that ye have eternal life who believe on the name of the Son of God. "

It is clear that the witness is "eternal life", not "belief". The witness is a proof. So, belief comes first, then eternal life as proof.
Calvinists twist the Word of God.

CLARITY

so you are arguing that fallen man can please God (by faith)

are you saying faith is not a spiritual act but a fleshly act ????

you are arguing that what God commands man , man can do.

also you are saying faith is rewarded by a New Birth ...........

is that your position ?

Also kindly refrain from slander , accusing brethren of twisting God's Word is a serious accusation , what you may perceive as "twisting" may be nothing more than another point of view gained after years of careful study , and it is the part of generosity to recognise the difference between a perverter of God's Word (Mormons JW , etc) and a recognised historical orthodox position . .......... accusing someone of twisting scripture can so easily be the part of mean spirited , quick to judge , glorying in self righteousness and judging by the flesh instead of according to the Spirit.

 

[Ben johnson]

CLARITY

so you are arguing that fallen man can please God (by faith)

Where does it say that "saving faith PLEASES God"?

You think fallen-man CANNOT believe. Yet you admit that fallen-man can believe SUPERFICIALLY. You deny Paul's words in 1Cor1:18-21 --- were a man can believe THROUGH the foolishness of the Gospel.

are you saying faith is not a spiritual act but a fleshly act ????

It is not something that requires regeneration FIRST. But more on that in a moment...

you are arguing that what God commands man , man can do.

And YOU are arguing that "God commands man to do something God knows man CANNOT do". ("God commands ALL MEN everywhere to REPENT!" Acts17:30!)

What does that make God?

also you are saying faith is rewarded by a New Birth ...........

Romans3:26 says "God is just and justifier of he who BELIEVES"...

Hebrews 11:6 says "Without faith it is impossible to please God; for he who COMES to God must believe that God IS, and that He is a rewarder of those who SEEK Him".

Acts 10:34-35 says "God is NOT partial, but in every nation the man who revers God and does right, is welcome to Him."

These place faith as fully CAUSAL to "salvation" (the "new birth"), don't they?

Do you have any verse that says differently?

(BTW, those three verses I just quoted --- plainly place "saving-faith", directed from MEN towards GOD. And CAUSAL to God's favor. Don't they?)

And, again, as Paul says, "it depends not on him who wills or runs, but on God's mercy" (Rom 9:16).[/

God has mercy on ALL. Rm11:32

A man who is not born of the Spirit cannot discern the things of the Spirit , they are foolishness to him , but once a man has been delivered from the realms of the flesh where nothing good dwells , and delivered into the Spiritual , then and only then can he do anything spiritual ......

Completely wrong, Cygnus. You're still trying to apply 1Cor2:14, which says: "A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually appraised." You think that means "believing-in-Jesus is a SPIRITUAL thing, so a natural (unregenerated) man CANNOT believe in Jesus".

Cygnus --- verse 12 connects: "We have RECEIVED ...the Spirit from God, that we may KNOW the things freely given to us by God --- which things we ALSO speak, not in words taught by Human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural man does not accept..."

Do you see, Cygnus? 1Cor1:14 speaks of wisdom that comes from the RECEIVED Spirit.

Have you ever heard of someone RECEIVING the Holy Spirit, APART from belief?

"Spirit received after belief" (both Cornelius' group, and the APOSTLES!) in Acts11:17.

Eph1:13, using "sealed" (connoting "received"), also says "after belief".

So your view of "believing in Jesus is ONE of the spiritual things that a natural man cannot do", does not exist in Scripture.

Will you accept this? Or have you some way to deny it?

....... Nichodemus although a Biblical scholar of many years didn't know this , he assumed that whatever God requires , must mean all men can perform it .......... wrong!!!

Jesus rebuked Nick, for NOT knowing. Jesus FULLY endorsed "born again THROUGH belief".

Some think saving faith can be seperated from Regeneration and that a person may be in posession of saving faith before regeneration , this is absurd and clearly against scripture.
1 John 5

1Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him:

There is no order at all! It is just a demonstration of a fact: he that is believing has been begotten of God. It doesn't say anything about HOW one became to be begotten of God.

He's 100% right, Cygnus. Furthermore, if you will simply read on to 1Jn5:10: "He who believesa in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does NOT believe God has made Him a liar, BECAUSE he has not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning His Son."

Because they had not believed. Why doesn't he say, "because God has not ELECTED him"? Or, "because God has not GIVEN HIM FAITH"?

It's because belief is CAUSAL to salvation, Cygnus; and unbelief is CAUSAL to condemnation.

Notice the clear order faith follows from the New Birth!

Cygnus --- we can solve this once and for all, here and now.

"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He POURED out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior." Titus3:5-6

Cygnus --- is "regeneration" in this verse, by the POURED Spirit, or not?

This is a question that can be answered "yes", or "no". If you will answer it, then we can finally put to rest this discussion.

 

[Ben johnson]

Also kindly refrain from slander , accusing brethren of twisting God's Word is a serious accusation

And how many times has BEN been accused of "twisting God's word"?

Ben kinda ran outta fingers & toes countin'...

 

[holdon]

CLARITY

so you are arguing that fallen man can please God (by faith)

are you saying faith is not a spiritual act but a fleshly act ????

you are arguing that what God commands man , man can do.

also you are saying faith is rewarded by a New Birth ...........

is that your position ?

Have you never read the great chapter on the "new birth"? It's John 3.

"verily, I say unto thee, Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

"It is needful that ye should be born anew.
The wind blows where it will, and thou hearest its voice, but knowest not whence it comes and where it goes: thus is every one that is born of the Spirit."

So, how is one born anew? By the "water" and the "Spirit". The water is the word of God. ("Ye are already clean by reason of the word which I have spoken to you"; "purifying it by the washing of water by the word") See also how the word is the incorruptible seed that at conception causes new birth: 1 Pet 1:23 "being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the living and abiding word of God." See also James 1:18 begotten by the word of God.

So, how does one become born again? By receiving the word of God. By believing it: "for you are all God's sons by faith in Christ Jesus". "but as many as received him, to them gave he the right to be children of God, to those that believe on his name;"God has been pleased by the foolishness of the preaching to save those that believe"; "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."; "having received the word of the report of God by us, ye accepted, not men's word, but, even as it is truly, God's word, which also works in you who believe." Is the Spirit blowing AND hearing it's sound, making one born again.

I cannot call it other than twisting when one says that life comes before belief, when it is the other way around. Sorry. I don't doubt your good intentions, but truth is what matters....

 

[cygnusx1]

Furthermore, if you will simply read on to 1Jn5:10: "He who believesa in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does NOT believe God has made Him a liar, BECAUSE he has not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning His Son."

Because they had not believed. Why doesn't he say, "because God has not ELECTED him"? Or, "because God has not GIVEN HIM FAITH"?

It's because belief is CAUSAL to salvation, Cygnus; and unbelief is CAUSAL to condemnation.

why are you playing games ben ????

you ask

"Because they had not believed. Why doesn't he say, "because God has not ELECTED him"? "

you are dealing with only one cause of condemnation , the sinners unbelief , but that is certainly not the only cause . why do they not believe ?

Jesus has told us , it is because they are not of His sheep ,

Jhn 10:26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

that is the reason they do not believe , but I know full well you cannot accept that , for it destroys your arguements and doesn't fit in with your humanist paradigm.

Show me anywhere where Calvinists do not clearly and without equivocation declare that sinners are condemned for their sin ......... which has been imputed unto them from the sin of one man.(is that just ben?)

Show me anywhere where Calvinists do not stick the blame for sin and unbelief at the door of the sinner .........

you cannot do it can you , so why spend time writing against a position that no-one holds

btw , it is clear God condemns all men for the sin of one man (happy with that?) but you make an unfounded and wrong deduction here , you assume that because man is condemned for unbelief (the worst of sins) therefore faith must be causative in salvation!!!!!

It is NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We are saved through faith NOT BECAUSE OF IT!

Faith is instrumental only , we are saved by Grace through faith ............. we have faith by Grace , we have believed because of Grace , Grace crowns all gifts and if salvation is not a gift in it's entirety then it is not a gift at all!!!

Grace Reigns , it is Sovereign , even mercy is Sovereign but Grace is exceedingly above the realm of mercy.It is a grant , a gift , a power an unction , a putting forth of Divine Power , a declaring life to the dead , love to the enemy and an unchanging commitment for eternity to unconditionaly love and grant whatsoever is necessary to avail salvation (faith ; repentance ; good works predestined beforehand) ...... unto every elect sinner .

Can you not see that it has been granted to you to suffer for Christ ........... why do you deny that suffering for Christ is a gift ?
Then if it is a gift why do you deny that faith (believing God's Word ) is also a gift ? Why are you constantly inconsitant ben ?

tell me this how did you come to faith when others think your faith is foolish >.......... how is it that you discovered Jesus is the Christ when that has to be revealed by God ........... are you saying that your faith was not by revelation of the truth ?

why do you suppose there is hostility towards Christians and the Gospel (when it is truly preached ) why is it that the Gospel message , seeing as it is soooooooooo wonderful and life giving is not accpeted by even the majority , why do the majority of sinners reject Christ , and only a small minority of mankind recognise , realise and willingly submit to the reign of Christ ?

Accepting Christ in the face of opposition and a drastic discovery : you are now surrounded by enemies ...... the world the flesh and the devil.

You can tell me nothing about the flesh and it's power that I am not fully aware of ........... even in the Christian there is left a nature that is at war with God ......... that loves sin and hates righteousness and prefers darkness to light , that is not in subjection to God and His law , that is willfull , ignorant , repugnant and more stubborn than a mule ............ and that is in THE CHRISTIAN!!!!

So where does that leave the unregenerate! ............ in total darkness and at war with God , in a dispicable place , hostile in mind and deed , and without purity , good conscience and in desperate need of Grace.

 

[cygnusx1]

Have you never read the great chapter on the "new birth"? It's John 3.

"verily, I say unto thee, Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

"It is needful that ye should be born anew.
The wind blows where it will, and thou hearest its voice, but knowest not whence it comes and where it goes: thus is every one that is born of the Spirit."

So, how is one born anew? By the "water" and the "Spirit". The water is the word of God. ("Ye are already clean by reason of the word which I have spoken to you"; "purifying it by the washing of water by the word") See also how the word is the incorruptible seed that at conception causes new birth: 1 Pet 1:23 "being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the living and abiding word of God." See also James 1:18 begotten by the word of God.

So, how does one become born again? By receiving the word of God. By believing it: "for you are all God's sons by faith in Christ Jesus". "but as many as received him, to them gave he the right to be children of God, to those that believe on his name;"God has been pleased by the foolishness of the preaching to save those that believe"; "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."; "having received the word of the report of God by us, ye accepted, not men's word, but, even as it is truly, God's word, which also works in you who believe." Is the Spirit blowing AND hearing it's sound, making one born again.

I cannot call it other than twisting when one says that life comes before belief, when it is the other way around. Sorry. I don't doubt your good intentions, but truth is what matters....

this is the Divine order ........... this is clear as crystal .

1 John 5:1 - "everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God"

Notice that prior to faith is a statement of fact showing the foundation of the Christians faith . "has been born of God"

It is pointless arguing that these are merely unrelated facts like a list , unless you want to argue (against scripture) that Simon Magus was born -again ............... he believed and subsequently proved he was clearly unregenerate!

 

[nobdysfool]

why are you playing games ben ????

you ask

"Because they had not believed. Why doesn't he say, "because God has not ELECTED him"? "

you are dealing with only one cause of condemnation , the sinners unbelief , but that is certainly not the only cause . why do they not believe ?

Jesus has told us , it is because they are not of His sheep ,

Jhn 10:26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

that is the reason they do not believe , but I know full well you cannot accept that , for it destroys your arguements and doesn't fit in with your humanist paradigm.

Show me anywhere where Calvinists do not clearly and without equivocation declare that sinners are condemned for their sin ......... which has been imputed unto them from the sin of one man.(is that just ben?)

Show me anywhere where Calvinists do not stick the blame for sin and unbelief at the door of the sinner .........

you cannot do it can you , so why spend time writing against a position that no-one holds

btw , it is clear God condemns all men for the sin of one man (happy with that?) but you make an unfounded and wrong deduction here , you assume that because man is condemned for unbelief (the worst of sins) therefore faith must be causative in salvation!!!!!

It is NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We are saved through faith NOT BECAUSE OF IT!

Faith is instrumental only , we are saved by Grace through faith ............. we have faith by Grace , we have believed because of Grace , Grace crowns all gifts and if salvation is not a gift in it's entirety then it is not a gift at all!!!

Grace Reigns , it is Sovereign , even mercy is Sovereign but Grace is exceedingly above the realm of mercy.It is a grant , a gift , a power an unction , a putting forth of Divine Power , a declaring life to the dead , love to the enemy and an unchanging commitment for eternity to unconditionaly love and grant whatsoever is necessary to avail salvation (faith ; repentance ; good works predestined beforehand) ...... unto every elect sinner .

Can you not see that it has been granted to you to suffer for Christ ........... why do you deny that suffering for Christ is a gift ?
Then if it is a gift why do you deny that faith (believing God's Word ) is also a gift ? Why are you constantly inconsitant ben ?

tell me this how did you come to faith when others think your faith is foolish >.......... how is it that you discovered Jesus is the Christ when that has to be revealed by God ........... are you saying that your faith was not by revelation of the truth ?

why do you suppose there is hostility towards Christians and the Gospel (when it is truly preached ) why is it that the Gospel message , seeing as it is soooooooooo wonderful and life giving is not accpeted by even the majority , why do the majority of sinners reject Christ , and only a small minority of mankind recognise , realise and willingly submit to the reign of Christ ?

Accepting Christ in the face of opposition and a drastic discovery : you are now surrounded by enemies ...... the world the flesh and the devil.

You can tell me nothing about the flesh and it's power that I am not fully aware of ........... even in the Christian there is left a nature that is at war with God ......... that loves sin and hates righteousness and prefers darkness to light , that is not in subjection to God and His law , that is willfull , ignorant , repugnant and more stubborn than a mule ............ and that is in THE CHRISTIAN!!!!

So where does that leave the unregenerate! ............ in total darkness and at war with God , in a dispicable place , hostile in mind and deed , and without purity , good conscience and in desperate need of Grace.

AMEN, bro!!!!

 

[holdon]

this is the Divine order ........... this is clear as crystal .

1 John 5:1 - "everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God"

Notice that prior to faith is a statement of fact showing the foundation of the Christians faith . "has been born of God".

No, it is: "if , .... then ....." Like everyone that believes that Jesus is the Christ, has been born of God". It is just a demonstration. I am not arguing against that at all. But it does NOT say anything as to HOW one became "born of God" in the first place. For that you have to go a few verses down, as I have shown.

It is pointless arguing that these are merely unrelated facts like a list , unless you want to argue (against scripture) that Simon Magus was born -again ............... he believed and subsequently proved he was clearly unregenerate!

So, how does that work with faith following regeneration??? You're arguing exactly against yourself. Your argument would be: if Simon believed then he must have been regenerated...... since faith follows regeneration.
I say, no Simons faith was not genuine. He professed outwardly (like so many), but God only regenerates on real faith.

 

[cygnusx1]

No, it is: "if , .... then ....." Like everyone that believes that Jesus is the Christ, has been born of God". It is just a demonstration. I am not arguing against that at all. But it does NOT say anything as to HOW one became "born of God" in the first place. For that you have to go a few verses down, as I have shown.

no it is not an if ..... then ..... .

it is a stated fact that everyone who believes in Christ (present tense) has (past tense) been born of God.

So, how does that work with faith following regeneration??? You're arguing exactly against yourself. Your argument would be: if Simon believed then he must have been regenerated...... since faith follows regeneration.
I say, no Simons faith was not genuine. He professed outwardly (like so many), but God only regenerates on real faith.

not at all .......... you are arguing that belief always preceeds regeneration ............. clearly you now wish to make exceptions ......... "only if it is true FAITH DOES IT PRECEDE REGENERATION"

THE POINT IS THAT WE TAKE A MAN AT HIS WORD , until he shows what he is really like , if he proves he has spurious faith we inform him........ because his faith (deliberate emphasis) cannot save him , only regeneration which produces genuine faith and repentance secures salvation.

and you still haven't told me if faith is a spiritual act ............. if it is then how in all seriousness can an unregenerate have saving faith , he can only have a spurious unregenerate faith!

If his genuine faith is a spiritual act , then it is as clear as daylight that it must flow from some spiritual source , indeed it must and does.......... for those in the flesh cannot please God , I wish you would think about this , a man must be born again to see the kingdom of heaven never mind enter it ......... and what good is faith without revelation (seeing) .

also what you and ben continually fail to face up to ( I wonder why) is the salvation of infants and the mentaly ill , these cannot have faith in Christ , so are you denying them a new birth ............ or is this just another exception to your paradigm ???

 

[nobdysfool]

No, it is: "if , .... then ....." Like everyone that believes that Jesus is the Christ, has been born of God". It is just a demonstration.

The literal Greek reads: Everyone who is believing that Jesus is the Christ has been
born of God.

The Greek grammar shows that being born again precedes the believing. One believes BECAUSE one has been born again.

This verse upholds the Reformed view quite nicely, and it is not the only one.

 

[Ben johnson]

you are dealing with only one cause of condemnation , the sinners unbelief , but that is certainly not the only cause . why do they not believe ?

Jesus has told us , it is because they are not of His sheep ,

But you're backwards. The reason they are "not of His sheep", is because they "haven't entered through Jesus (believed) and BECOME His sheep".

Calvinists cannot be corrected on their misinterpretation of John10:28. It really reads:
"Tell us if you are the Messiah."
"I told you (that I'm the Messiah), and you won't believe (that I'm the Messiah). You won't believe (that I'm the Messiah) because you are not of My sheep."

This ignores verse 9, "if TIS-ANYONE enters through Me (believes!) then he will be saved, and will go in and out and FIND PASTURE( will BECOME My sheep)."

Show me anywhere where Calvinists do not stick the blame for sin and unbelief at the door of the sinner .........

How, and why? It was God's decision. Wasn't it?

therefore faith must be causative in salvation!!!!!

It is NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's the problem. Yes it is...

AND --- we are firmly warned NOT to imitate others' unbelief and disobedience, for it will CAUSE condemnation. Heb4:11

Faith is instrumental only , we are saved by Grace through faith ............. we have faith by Grace , we have believed because of Grace , Grace crowns all gifts and if salvation is not a gift in its entirety then it is not a gift at all!!!

A.T.Robertson, on Eph8, says "Grace is GOD'S part, faith is OURS."

God's gift, our choice to receive it.

Can you not see that it has been granted to you to suffer for Christ ........... why do you deny that suffering for Christ is a gift ?
Then if it is a gift why do you deny that faith (believing God's Word ) is also a gift ? Why are you constantly inconsitant Ben ?

Because if saving-faith itself IS a "unilateral gift from God", then we are NOT saved "by grace through faith".

...we are saved "by grace THROUGH GRACE"...

tell me this how did you come to faith when others think your faith is foolish >.......... how is it that you discovered Jesus is the Christ when that has to be revealed by God ........... are you saying that your faith was not by revelation of the truth ?

Jesus is revealed to all men. Rm1:19.

why do you suppose there is hostility towards Christians and the Gospel (when it is truly preached ) why is it that the Gospel message , seeing as it is soooooooooo wonderful and life giving is not accpeted by even the majority , why do the majority of sinners reject Christ , and only a small minority of mankind recognise , realise and willingly submit to the reign of Christ ?

Conviction. But I think this is the greatest obstacle to your accpetance of "Responsible Grace". You cannot concieve of man having a choice.

So where does that leave the unregenerate! ............ in total darkness and at war with God , in a despicable place , hostile in mind and deed , and without purity , good conscience and in desperate need of Grace.

And that leaves you struggling terribly to explain the glaring contradiction.

"Man cannot believe in God, because he's COMPLETELY inclined towards sin.

But SOME men DO believe; it's just a FALSE belief, evidenced by their eventual FALLING-AWAY.

And once SAVED, we cannot RETURN to that 'hostile-in-mind' place, BECAUSE of that reconcilliation.

...even though reconcilliation AWAY FROM 'hostile-in-mind' is clearly asserted in Col1:21-23, as 'if indeed we CONINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from Jesus-the-Hope' --- it's not REALLY a CONDITION; God will always MEET the condition, it's not REALLY a WARNING.

Those whom God chose WILL believe, and will NOT later disbelieve.

Those whom God did NOT choose, CANNOT believe because they are at EMNITY with God, and cannot EVER seek Him.

...except for those who SEEK Him (falsely), and BELIEVE (falsely), only by perseverance do we-elect demonstrate TRUE belief and TRUE continuing..."