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You make so many mistakes. You said that Yeshua was not under the law but above it. Please read Galatians 4:4.Jesus is using the example of the priests desecrating the Sabbath to explain what his disciples (and himself by implication) were doing. And the example of what -- David -- and his companions were doing that was unlawful to explain what they were doing. Both not lawful and desecrating according to Jesus explanation. Since he was Lord of the Sabbath, he could do as he pleased. He was not under the law, he was above it.
Matthew 12:2-5
When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”
3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent?
The law says you shall do all your work in 6 days. Has all your work been completed in 6 days? What about the priests? Did the priests make the "shewbread" ready to be eaten inside the temple, yet are INNOCENT? Have you tasted the "shewbread" like David who was not a levitical priest? It is obvious you have not tasted the "bread of life" lest you would become less contentious.The commandment is to not do any work.
Jesus confirmed that healing on the Sabbath was work.
John 5:16-18
So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Yes, born under the law. But he didn't minister under it.You make so many mistakes. You said that Yeshua was not under the law but above it. Please read Galatians 4:4.
What does the law that was given to the Israelites alone through Moses have to do with my work? Or yours for that matter. Are you an Israelite? Were you a slave in Egypt?The law says you shall do all the work in 6 days. Has all your work been completed n 6 days?
Posts like that are the express train to an involuntary vacation.Yeshua was born under the law; thus he had to adhere to the law. Do you get tired of lieing?
If you violate the law you shall become a slave to sin.What does the law that was given to the Israelites alone through Moses have to do with my work? Or yours for that matter. Are you an Israelite? Were you a slave in Egypt?
Deuteronomy 5:15
Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.
Were you born under the law?Yeshua was born under the law; thus he had to adhere to the law. Do you get tired of lieing?
You keep saying things that are not written. You keep falsely accusing Yeshua which I take to be offensive.Posts like that are the express train to an involuntary vacation.
Were you a slave in Egypt?If you violate the law you shall become a slave to sin.
Are you a slave to sin?Were you a slave in Egypt?
Deuteronomy 5:15
Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.
Things not written? I have provided lots of scripture to support my views.You keep saying things that are not written. You keep falsely accusing Yeshua which I take to be offensive.
We seem to be at an impasse.Are you a slave to sin?
Where is it written that Yeshua was born under law but he didn't minister under it? You made it up to somehow avoid the truth that Yeshua was born under the law. Why don't you allow YHWH to be true (Romans 3:4).Things not written? I have provided lots of scripture to support my views.
You seem to have no concerns about bearing false witness.Where is it written that Yeshua was born under law but he didn't minister under it? You made it up to somehow avoid the truth that Yeshua was born under the law. Why don't you allow YHWH to be true (Romans 3:4).
The commandment is to not do any work.
Jesus confirmed that healing on the Sabbath was work.
John 5:16-18
So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
The commandment is to not do any work.
Jesus confirmed that healing on the Sabbath was work.
John 5:16-18
So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Things not written? I have provided lots of scripture to support my views.
The scripture is good but the commentary is just man-made quasi-logic.Interesting concept David. Please elaborate. I was negligent in stating it was the covenant Jesus fulfilled. It was the laws of the covenant He fulfilled. If you refuse to believe Jesus fulfilled (brought to an end) the law then there is no new covenant because Jesus stated that not one jot or one tittle would pass from the law. That would mean that Israel and all who follow would be under every single command found in the words of the covenant. The Jews tell us that the count on the laws was 613. One of the commands was the cutting of the sideburns. That seems like a little thing, right? God gave that command so it really is not trivial at all. SDAs tell us that the so-called ceremonial laws have been done away with. That would be a misnomer because of the jot or tittles. Nothing can be removed from the Law until all is fulfilled. You cannot have it both ways. Jesus in Jn 15 states that He kept the commands of the old covenant and we are to keep the commands that Jesus has given us. Later in the chapter, He tells us what those commands are. 9 ‘As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: love each other as I have loved you.13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
fulfill-to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise. Yes, He did and not with the blood of an animal, but by His own blood he ratified the covenant. So, the old covenant has past and all mankind is under the new covenant. That is different from the old covenant where only the Israelites were obligated or subject to Its laws. So, since we cannot be governed by two covenants at the same time the old one had to go. Our covenant does not require us to keep a lot of rituals like was found in the old one. Mankind's new covenant isn't about keeping days, in fact John in 1JN3:19-24 says:19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 if our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: we know it by the Spirit he gave us.
Do you mean when the Son commited...... Jesus, as we know Him, came to being on this Earth.
Amen!
Everyone has a right to their opinions. The results of the opinions I have formulated over the last 25 years of the critical study of Adventism's doctrines are what I write.The scripture is good but the commentary is just man-made quasi-logic.
All part of the words of the covenant God gave to Israel. Break any one of them was sin. Jews do not group laws so why should I? All of God's laws are moral as related to immoral.Sideburns? Jots? Tittles? 613? Refuse to believe? I cannot have it both ways? Do you actually deny that there were moral, civil, and ceremonial laws, distinct from one another, even if there was slight overlap in some cases?
Well, can we?Cannot be governed by two covenants at one time?
If you are referring to the laws of the Sinai covenant the answer is no, a big no.Weren't the heathen nations destroyed and driven out presicely because they would not keep God's Law?
According to Jewish scholars, the Gentile nations were subject to the Noahide laws.Wouldn't that make them obligated just as was Israel?
Would you like to restate that question so that even I can understand what you are trying to ask?Are covenants and laws one and the same or not? (Are you then allowed to "have it both ways?")
Oh?? Are you wiser than God? Apparently, God didn't share your views.The "old covenant" was so impotent as to not be worthy of the designation, because it was based entirely on the promises of barbarians.
No problem, take your time. We all get caught up in important things. God is patiently waiting on all of us to accept the real truth.Sorry; I've been distracted and sidetracked by life, in general, since I was involved in this conversation.
He did say He kept the Father's commands. Where were the Father's commands located? Actually, the new covenant was formulated as part of the plan of salvation which was formulated before the foundation of the Earth. The plan of salvation is not a seat of pants as you go formulation.In John, ch. 15, The Savior makes no mention of or even so much as an allusion to any "old covenant." He does refer, in part, to the Law as expressed in the two great commandments (Deu. 6:5, 10:12 and Lev. 19:18, 34). However, He knows that He is among friends (John 15:14, 15) who will not turn His words back upon Him to justify disobedience, and therefore need not guard His speech as he had to in Matthew 22:37-39, when He was being tempted by the established clergy. And clearly, judging from the location of the scripture from whence it came, "Christ's Law" originated in the age of the "old covenant."
I would not teach such a thing. Jesus said that He was giving a new command about love. Did He lie to us? I say an emphatic NO! Loving others as I have loved you cannot be found in the Old Testament.And clearly, judging from the location of the scripture from whence it came, "Christ's Law" originated in the age of the "old covenant."
I would submit to you that if you understood the real facts about the covenants you wouldn't have become a SDA. It was not until I left Adventism that I finally realized I was not grounded in that part of my Christian faith. The laws of the Old Covenant had nothing to do with salvation. The covenant was all about how Israel was to live in the desert and later in the land of Canaan. The Abrahamic covenant was about salvation as well as the New Covenant. Where does the SDA church get the idea that if I do not keep the Sabbath given only to Israel I will not receive my eternal reward? That is ludicrous. The church claims the same thing if I don't pay tithe to the church.Discussion of covenants tends to make my head hurt since, these days, I no longer have a single dispensationalist bone in my body.
I don't believe there is any disparity. The old paved the way for the new. It is all part of the plan of salvation. As far as Rev 14 and Adventism's take on the chapter is concerned I believe their take on the verses is entirely wrong. You have been programmed to believe all outside of your church are part of Babylon because we do not hold the Sabbath of the now-defunct Sinai covenant holy we are the beast and the image of the beast. Worshipping God on Sunday makes us somehow Babylon.I'm not being facetious, here--I actually am so accustomed to focusing on the everlasting Gospel cited in Rev. 14:6 that I genuinely have trouble wrapping my head around these matters, at times. I grew up mildly influenced by a Baptist atmosphere that was obsessed with a perceived disparity between the Old and New Testaments. King James Version Bibles, with Scofield study notes included, were everywhere.
Yes, it is a true shame that your church teaches you to never say you are saved. You cannot believe in the promises like Jn 5:24 and Jn 3:16. SDAs mouth the words of Jude1:24-25, but don't really believe He can keep us from falling.I truly believe it is dangerous to hone in on words, such as "law," "sin," "fulfill," "covenant," etc. "Saved" is one we really love to wear the tread off of.
Why stop now? You have already made it clear that you denounce certain things. Believe what you will and allow me to use Saved, Sideburns, Jots, Tittles, 613 and Refuse to believe? Those are things you need to focus on and not that the remainder of Christianity are going to miss the boat.I'm gonna stop there before I get in trouble.
Then instead of belittling for using words you may not like give us the reason for your beliefs.It seemed to me when I was an Adventist we were focused on nothing but Sabbath, a works-oriented belief system. Everything revolved around Sabbath in place of Jesus.I cannot have it both ways?
We strive over such words and terms until we have forgotten the Object of their utility.
You posted your thoughts and I responded. You seem to dislike the terms I used and the fact that we are not under the commands of the Sinai Covenant. You debunked my thoughts by using the term Quasi-logic, but offered little to explain where. This, after all, is a debate forum.Anyway, I'm not sure what or if you were asking something of me, but if you don't mind restating in the simplest terms you can manage, I'll be more than happy to respond.
Wow! a lot there my friend. The subject of the thread is: Do Sabbath Keepers Keep the Sabbath?I digressed as did others. If you are interested in further debate on that issue I would be happy to give you my two cents worth.Since this is a very general Christian forum (bordering on pluralist/ecumenical--from a non-derogatory spirit on my part, of course), I can't always assume I know where a participant is coming from, dogmatically speaking. I get a feeling we may be talking about the mystery attached to the pre-advent existence of Christ here, a subject which many are not comfortable discussing at all, since the Bible seems to them to be perhaps cautiously quiet upon. I have no such reservations, being an avid student of the triune Godhead, but I respect and even admire the concerns of those who tread lightly upon the subject.
As far as covenants and fulfillment are concerned, I have a narrow view. I know the devil loves to invent minors for us to major in. There can be no doubt that there is a fine line between keeping the main thing the main thing and vain repetition. And certainly, God wants us to dig into scripture as for hid treasure. But in the end, the Gospel is best expressed in the simplest of ways:
Amen!But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)
But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him, and with His stripes, we are healed. (Isaiah 53:5)
Had Israelites been able to save themselves by keeping the rules of the covenant Jesus would have never had to come to this Earth and become the Sacrifice for Israel and all mankind. The fact is that the Law could only point out their sins. I do not believe Christians are justifying sin. We know we are sinners saved by Grace not by what we do. Perhaps you are dwelling on a false premise or were worshipping with the wrong group.I've only been an Adventist for a little over half my life but when it found me, it was an easy sell, because it explained perfectly my bewilderment as to why modern Christendom is so obsessed with justifying sin and ever looking to slip through a crack of a pearly gate somehow.
The nine have not toppled. They are a part of the command Jesus gave us to love others as He loves us. How much does Jesus love us? He gave up Heaven to come to lost sinners to die so that we might have life eternal as it was supposed to be from the beginning.I still don't understand why people want to jettison God's Law so that they don't have to be bothered with just one commandment. Sadly, as the Bible predicted, the other nine are slowly toppling like dominoes.
I believe I covered that in a statement above.Masterful deception, seems like. A hundred years ago, Christians revered and kept Sunday as the Holy Sabbath day. The wholesale antinomianism that prevails today couldn't be given away with movie tickets. My grandmother literally would not allow anyone to do unnecessary work on her property on Sunday.
You can never ruffle my feathers friend. I love to discuss what I now believe is the simple truth. God Bless you.I almost hate to fire this off. I don't condemn anyone, personally, as clichéd as that seems, and often is. It's just not possible to handle truth without ruffling feathers.
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