Do Sabbath Keepers KEEP the Sabbath?

[Saint Steven]

Yes, I agree, but with more explanation. My additions which may be where we disagreed (I can't remember) would be that the eternal law on our hearts is specifically to "love God with all your heart, soul, and body, and your neighbor as yourself." The Ten Commandments is fashioned after that all-encompassing law, but had to be kept with the carnal nature UNTIL Christ, who replaced our carnal nature with one born again of the all-powerful Holy Spirit. So even though the law engraved on stone was holy, there was always a battle of knowledge over will, and will over knowledge which is depicted in Romans 7 before Christ takes away that sin nature in Romans 8.

Where I find the most disagreement with me by those on the forum and elsewhere, even pastors, is my assertion that Romans 7 is NOT the life of a Christian, because we MUST be born again of the Spirit to be Christ's, thus a Christian, and those walking in the Spirit don't have that struggle - Christ freed us from sin. The context of Romans 7 is about those still under the law - the Jews - trying to keep the law with their fallen nature full of sin - BEFORE CHRIST.

I disagree with what you define as the "eternal law", assuming you mean the law that was from the beginning, the law of human conscience. Though human conscience has an innate sense of right and wrong, it does not have a built-in understanding of who God is. At least not as we define God. Therefore, how could those who don't know God love God with all their heart, soul, and body? Nor arguably love others as themselves, since that is spiritual love.

I also disagree that the Ten Commandments were "fashioned" after what you are calling the "eternal law". This is a standard SDA teaching that is an attempt to claim by extension that the Ten Commandments are the "eternal law" written on our hearts. If that is true then the Sabbath Commandment would be written on the human heart. I don't think you are saying that, but your doctrine leads to that conclusion.

Again, these scriptures below state that not everyone has "the law".
Which I am defining as the law that God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses.

They also indicate that there is a law of human conscience operating in the hearts of those who do not have the law.

1 Corinthians 9:21
To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

 

[1stcenturylady]

At least not as we define God. Therefore, how could those who don't know God love God with all their heart, soul, and body? Nor arguably love others as themselves, since that is spiritual love.

By nature around them as Romans 1 says. Look at the Native American Indians. Before the gospel, they prayed to the Great White Spirit. It is the knowledge that there is a power above themselves. Even Paul preached to some Gentiles and told them Who their "unnamed god" was.

I also disagree that the Ten Commandments were "fashioned" after what you are calling the "eternal law". This is a standard SDA teaching that is an attempt to claim by extension that the Ten Commandments are the "eternal law" written on our hearts. If that is true then the Sabbath Commandment would be written on the human heart. I don't think you are saying that, but your doctrine leads to that conclusion.

I'm saying the opposite. The eternal law stands, whereas the Ten Commandments was a covenant and was to guard them until Christ. It is Christ who makes us born again of the Spirit - His Spirit - which doesn't sin. The 10C were to show us our sin, but if your nature doesn't sin, what need is there in the written law? Entering into God's rest is not keeping one day a week, but the rest that comes by trusting God, something the stiff-necked Jews could never whole-heartedly do. And we have assurance and I don't mean OSAS, but the assurance of 1 John 3:21-23 that we DO what He says, and He answers ALL of our prayers.

Again, these scriptures below state that not everyone has "the law".
Which I am defining as the law that God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses.

They also indicate that there is a law of human conscience operating in the hearts of those who do not have the law.

1 Corinthians 9:21
To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Again, I agree.

 

[Saint Steven]

By nature around them as Romans 1 says. Look at the Native American Indians. Before the gospel, they prayed to the Great White Spirit. It is the knowledge that there is a power above themselves. Even Paul preached to some Gentiles and told them Who their "unnamed god" was.

But those are anomalies. Not the usual state of things.
And since Paul told those in Athens who their unknown god was, they obviously didn't know by means of their conscience.

 

[Saint Steven]

The 10C were to show us our sin...

"The law" is not limited to the TCs.

 

[1stcenturylady]

But those are anomalies. Not the usual state of things.
And since Paul told those in Athens who their unknown god was, they obviously didn't know by means of their conscience.

They KNEW there must be one before they ever met Paul.

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse...

 

[1stcenturylady]

"The law" is not limited to the TCs.

The "Law" that Paul was talking about in Romans 7 IS the Ten Commandments. He even quotes the one on coveting. But you are right, the Galatians were being coerced to do the outward signs of the law, such as days and the cutting of the skin in outward circumcision. We are not under either.

I still don't know what you are referring to specifically when you say "the law is the law." What a statement and I disagree. It can be taken one of two different ways, both wrong. If you say "the law is the law" and because we are not under the "law" we are not under any law, that's like OSAS would say which as in Jude 1:4 turns the grace of God into lasciviousness. That is as confusing as the second interpretation, saying the "law is the law" and meaning we are to keep the whole law as Seventh-day Adventists do.

The eternal law stands, and our new covenant laws are based on these two laws, 1 John 3:23. But the old covenant of the Mosaic laws that consisted of the 10C and ordinances do not.

21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

 

[Saint Steven]

They KNEW there must be one before they ever met Paul.

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse...

Must be "one"? They were polytheists.
The altar to an UNKNOWN GOD was in case they missed one. A situation which Paul capitalized on.

 

[Saint Steven]

The "Law" that Paul was talking about in Romans 7 IS the Ten Commandments. He even quotes the one on coveting. But you are right, the Galatians were being coerced to do the outward signs of the law, such as days and the cutting of the skin in outward circumcision. We are not under either.

The TCs are a subset of the whole law. He did not limit his discussion to the Ten.

 

[1stcenturylady]

The TCs are a subset of the whole law. He did not limit his discussion to the Ten.

That tells me nothing about what you believe is "the law is the law." Thanks a lot, Steven! I'm done.

 

[Saint Steven]

I still don't know what you are referring to specifically when you say "the law is the law." What a statement and I disagree. It can be taken one of two different ways, both wrong. If you say "the law is the law" and because we are not under the "law" we are not under any law, that's like OSAS would say which as in Jude 1:4 turns the grace of God into lasciviousness. That is as confusing as the second interpretation, saying the "law is the law" and meaning we are to keep the whole law as Seventh-day Adventists do.

Again, "the law" was given to the Israelites through Moses. That law. THE law. (the)

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

 

[Saint Steven]

The eternal law stands, and our new covenant laws are based on these two laws, 1 John 3:23. But the old covenant of the Mosaic laws that consisted of the 10C and ordinances do not.

21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

There are no new covenant laws.
The old covenant law was not replaced with new covenant laws. What would be the point of that? What is eternal about laws that are changed? Not very eternal, are they?

1 John 3:23
And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

 

[Saint Steven]

That tells me nothing about what you believe is "the law is the law." Thanks a lot, Steven! I'm done.

I have already told you at least twice.

"The law" is the law that God gave to the Israelites through Moses. The law is the law.

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

 

[Saint Steven]

That is as confusing as the second interpretation, saying the "law is the law" and meaning we are to keep the whole law as Seventh-day Adventists do.

The whole law (the written code) is gone.

Romans 7:6
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I have already told you at least twice.

"The law" is the law that God gave to the Israelites through Moses. The law is the law.

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

what are commandments if not law? If we have no law, are we capable of sinning, and if we do, are they just not held against us.

 

[1stcenturylady]

The whole law (the written code) is gone.

Romans 7:6
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Adventists believe that too, and we now have the power to keep the Sabbath day.

 

[1stcenturylady]

There are no new covenant laws.
The old covenant law was not replaced with new covenant laws. What would be the point of that? What is eternal about laws that are changed? Not very eternal, are they?

1 John 3:23
And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

Commandments are laws. We are commanded to love.


10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

 

[Saint Steven]

what are commandments if not law? If we have no law, are we capable of sinning, and if we do, are they just not held against us.

This is the bias I was speaking of earlier. No one is claiming such a thing.
We have been set free from law. (a yoke of slavery)
We are not led by laws. We are led by the Spirit.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Galatians 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

 

[Saint Steven]

Adventists believe that too, and we now have the power to keep the Sabbath day.

That's double speak on their part. We don't HAVE to, we GET to. ("because we love God")
To "keep" is to "observe" to observe makes it a law.
If I don't observe the Sabbath is that breaking the Sabbath? (makes it a law)

 

[Saint Steven]

Commandments are laws. We are commanded to love.

Commandments are laws. Commands are commands.
A military leader gives commands. That doesn't make them laws.
Jesus gives us commands. That doesn't make them laws.

 

[1stcenturylady]

That's double speak on their part. We don't HAVE to, we GET to. ("because we love God")
To "keep" is to "observe" to observe makes it a law.
If I don't observe the Sabbath is that breaking the Sabbath? (makes it a law)

So how do you get to keep the Sabbath? Where is that in scripture? What does that mean to you? Is the Sabbath Saturday or Sunday? Is God's rest of Hebrews 4, the Sabbath day?