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Do Pentecostals really speak in Languages? The Research

Daniel Marsh

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Today at 9:58 AM#51

SteveCarusoTranslator
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I do not hate Pentecostalism. It's in my varied experience that many Pentecostal churches -- which are a somewhat recent phenomenon in Christendom -- have odd theology and tend to be very authoritarian when you get involved in their hierarchy.

I also submit as evidence of oddness the fact that over the 15 years that I was translating Aramaic as my primary profession, over a hundred folks of Pentecostal persuasion came to me to translate their "tongues" because they were told "by the Spirit" (directly or through others, including pastors) that they were Aramaic.

Every case but one was not.

The one that was, *I* translated from English the year prior and someone was being deceptive with it.

That rather large sample and outcomes -- along with how most "tongues" are completely anemic -- to me, is fairly conclusive.

Peace,
--
Steve Caruso, MLIS
Translator, Aramaic Designs & The Aramaic New Testament
I'm just here for the Aramaic... mostly.
 

Daniel Marsh

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glossolalia language research
11-25-16, 02:00 PM
Basically, get a copy of scripture in a language that is not likely to be known in your area. Play it for all those who claim the gift of interpretation. You will not find a single person who gets the interpretation correct. This is a linguistic fact.

"In almost all instances, linguists are confident that the samples of T-speech represent no known natural language and in fact no language that was ever spoken or ever will be spoken by human beings as their native tongue. The phonological structure is untypical of natural languages. Some samples of T-speech, however, are more complex and cannot be clearly distinguished from a natural language on these grounds.15" age 372
“Glossolalia: Analyses of Selected Aspects of Phonology and Morphology,” M.A. thesis, University of Texas, 1967, p. 95" (Linguistic and Sociological Analyses of Modern Tongues-Speaking: Their Contributions and Limitations

by Vern S. Poythress

[Published in the Westminster Theological Journal 42/2 (1980) 367-388. Reprinted in Speaking in Tongues: A Guide to Research on Glossolalia. Watson E. Mills. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1986. Pp. 469-489.)


Just google: Glossolalia in Contemporary Linguistic Study or google Samarin, Tongues

The highly respected 1972 study of John P. Kildahl (The Psychology of Speaking in Tongues) concludes that "from a linguistic point of view, religiously inspired glossolalic utterances have the same general characteristics as those that are not religiously inspired." In fact, glossolalia is a "human phenomenon, not limited to Christianity nor even to religious behavior." (Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements by Spittler, P. 340).

Experts in the field of linguistics have diligently studied the phenomenon of glossolalia over a period of many years. One of the early investigations was made in the early 1960's by Eugene A. Nida. He provided a detailed list of reasons why glossolalia cannot be human language. Another early study, that of W.A. Wolfram in the year 1966, also concluded that glossolalia lacks the basic elements of human language as a system of coherent communication.

In a massive study of glossolalia from a linguistic perspective by Professor William J. Samarin of the University of Toronto's Department of Linguistics published after more than a decade of careful research, he rejected the view that glossolalia is xenoglossia, i.e. some foreign language that could be understood by another person who knew that language. Samarin concluded that glossolalia is a "pseudo-language." He defined glossolalia as "unintelligible babbling speech that exhibits superficial phonological similarity to language, without having consistent syntagmatic structure and that is not systematically derived from or related to known language." (William J. Samarin, "Variation and Variables in Religious Glossolalia," Language in Society, ed. Dell Haymes, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1972 pgs. 121-130)

Felicitas D. Goodman, a psychological anthropologist and linguist, engaged in a study of various English - Spanish - and Mayan-speaking Pentecostal communities in the United States and Mexico. She compared tape recordings of non-Christian rituals from Africa, Borneo, Indonesia and Japan as well. She published her results in 1972 in an extensive monograph (Speaking in Tongues: A Cross-Cultural Study in Glossolalia by Felecitas D. Goodman, University of Chicago Press, 1972).

Goodman concludes that "when all features of glossolalia were taken into consideration--that is, the segmental structure (such as sounds, syllables, phrases) and its suprasegmental elements (namely, rhythm, accent, and especially overall intonation)-- she concluded that there is no distinction in glossolalia between Christians and the followers of non-Christian (pagan) religions. The "association between trance and glossolalia is now accepted by many researchers as a correct assumption," writes Goodman in the prestigious Encyclopedia of Religion (1987).

Goodman also concludes that glossolalia "is, actually, a learned behavior, learned either unawarely or, sometimes consciously." Others have previously pointed out that direct instruction is given on how to "speak in tongues," ie. how to engage in glossolalia.

In fact, it has been found that the "speaking in tongues" practiced in Christian churches and by individual Christians is identical to the chanting language of those who practice voodoo on the darkest continents of this world.

Let us briefly examine the results of eight linguists:

Eugene A. Nida, Secretary of Translations for the American Bible Society and world renowned expert in linguistics, concluded from his studies that the phonemic strata indicates that the phonomes of glossolalic utterances are closely associated with the language background of the speaker's native language.7

Felicitas D. Goodman made phonetic analysis of glossolalia from recordings she taped for her Master's Degree in Mexico and different sections of the United States. She concludes that the glossolalia she analyzed was not productive and noncommunicative.8

James Jaquith from Washington University in his research among English speaking tongue-speakers concludes that "There is no evidence that these glossolalic utterances have been generated by constituent subcodes of any natural language other than English."9

Ernest Bryant and Daniel O'Connell of St. Louis University studied nine tapes of glossolalia taken from among their respondents. The results of their studies proved that "all glossolalic phonemes are within the normal phonemic repertoire of the native speaker of English."10 He says, "If a foreign language system were used a much greater divergence of phonemes would be expected, but the opposite is the case."

Dr. Donald Larson of Bethel College in St. Paul, Minnesota, began analyzing glossolalic samples in Toronto, Canada, in 1957. Since then he has analyzed many samples and observed glossolalic behavior in different parts of the world. His research also concludes that the phonological features of the native speaker's language carried over into his glossolalia experience.11

In a letter to Dr, William Welmers of U.C.L.A., I asked him, "In your studies of modern glossolalia have you detected any known language?" His reply was, "In short, absolutely not." He goes on to say that "Glossolalic utterances are consistently in important respects unlike human languages. They are characterized by a great deal of recurrences of closely similar sequences of syllables and usually employ a restricted number of different sounds." Dr. Welmers said that the same thing is true of hundreds of other utterances studied by Christian linguistics of his acquaintance.12

Dr. Samarin, by far the most thorough, says, "There is no mystery about glossolalia. Tape recorded samples are easy to obtain and to analyze. They always turn out to be the same things: strings of syllables made up of sounds taken from among all those that the speaker knows, put together more or less haphazardly but which nevertheless emerge as word-like or sentence-like units.13

F. Goodman, "Phonetic Analysis of Glossolalia in Four Cultural Settings," Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion (1969), Pages 227 to 239.
F. Goodman, "Speaking in Tongues. A Cross-Cultural Study of Glossolalia," University of Chicago Press, (1972).
W. Samarin, "Tongues of Men and Angels. The Religious Language of Pentecostalism," Macmillan (1972).
W. Samarin, "Variation and Variables in Religious Glossolalia," Language in Society, (1972), 1:121-130.
W. Samarin, "Glossolalia as Regressive Speech," Language and Speech (1973), 16:77-89.
W. Samarin, "Review of Goodman (1972)," Language (1974), 5:207-213.
D. J. Janes, "Glossolalia: The Gift of Gibberish," available at the Institute for First Amendment Studies
J.G. Melton, Ed., "The Encyclopedia of American Religions," Volume 1, Triumph Books, Tarrytown, NY, (1991), Page 41 to 47.
Jussi Karlgren, "Speaking in tongues," The Linguist List, #6.385. A compilation of responses by linguists to a question on the structure of Glossolalia.
Jeff Wehr, "Speaking in Tongues," Our Firm Foundation, Vol. 11, #11, 1996-NOV-11.
Steve Paulson, "Divining the Brain," Templeton-Cambridge Journalism, 2006-SEP-20,
Andrew Newberg, Nancy Wintering, Donna Morgan, and Mark Waldman, "The Measurement of Regional Cerebral Blood Flow During Glossolalia: a Preliminary SPECT Study." Psychiatry Research: Neuroimaging for 2006-NOV. This is the official publication of the International Society for Neuroimaging in Psychiatry.
"Language Center of the Brain Is Not Under the Control of Subjects Who 'Speak in Tongues'," University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, 2006-OCT-30,


Kildahl (1975) points out that:

"There are no reported instances of a glossolalist speaking a language which was then literally translated by an expert in that language…"

Malony & Lovekin (1985:5) conclude:

"Although tongue speakers often claim that their new language is French or Italian or Spanish, and so on – languages they never knew before – scientific studies to date have not confirmed their claims."

T. H. Spoerril has described this speech as "unsemantical conglomerations of sounds" and "as sound externalized without sense which sometimes produces the impression of coherent speech." The terms "unintelligible," "meaningless," and "jibberish" have also been applied to the entities representing this type of speech.
Boisen, A. T. Religion in Crisis and Custom: A sociological and Psychological study. New York, Harper, 1955.

On Youtube: Creationist Study, Disproves Glossolalia As Language.

Why did Jesus forbid prayer with babbling/long repetitions if he was going to give it as a special gift?

“And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition (battalogeó/battalogēsēte) as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.” (Mat 6:7)

If modern tongues are the same as those in Acts, why is there no verifiable xenoglossy?

“devout men from every nation under heaven” (Acts 2:5) around the first tongue speakers clearly stated “we hear them in our own tongues” (Acts 2:11).

If glossolalia is a real language, why are different interpretations given for the same phrase?

“Interpretations do in fact take place, but they are usually pious exhortations in the language of the group where the glossic utterances are made. They are often strikingly longer or shorter than the glossic utterance.” (1)

“I have heard the same glossolalic phrases repeated by the same glossolalist in different services, but each time the identical glossolalic utterances are given a different translation.“ (4)

“the interpreters gave different meanings to identical words in the same set of words. When confronted with this inconsistency, the interpreters simply said, ‘God gave different interpretations.'” (14, 23)

Why is Priming the Pump needed in Pentecostal training? I once visited Happy Church in Denver, CO. They hearded non-tongue speakers into a room and said, repeat after me. I asked what this this all about and they called it priming the pump.
I have met many people who have had the same thing happen to them in different churches in different cities.

"
A variety of linguistic analyses of glossolalia (the religious phenomenon of “speaking in tongues”) were performed to determine both the extent to which glossolalia is language‐like and the extent to which it is linguistically dependent upon the glossolalist's native language. The results indicate the glossolalia is, in more ways than not, both language‐like and unlike the speaker's native language. These results are contrary both to earlier studies of glossolalia and to the predictions of current psycholinguistic theory. The implication is that glossolalia manifests a unique sort of speech encoding which cannot now be, but must eventually be, accounted for by psycholinguistic theory."
(A linguistic analysis of glossolalia: Evidence of unique psycholinguistic processing
Michael T. Motley)


1 Timothy 6:20,

“O Timothy, keep that which is committed to your trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings…”

1 Corinthians 14:19-20 “Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. 20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.”

google Glossolalia Project for more research.

Glossolalia and Linguistic Alterity: The Ontology of Ineffable Speech
Evandro Bonfim

A linguistic analysis of a corpus of glossolalia
Speer, Blanche Corder, 1922-


Journal of Contemporary Religion, Vol. 19, No. 2, 2004 pp. 171–184
Glossolalia and Altered States of Consciousnessin two New Zealand Religious Movements

"Abstract
In nine tape-recorded samples of glossolalia, there is a remarkably low correlation with English samples from the same Ss, ascribable primarily to variation in vowel frequency. Nonetheless, all glossolalic phonemes are within the normal phonemic repertoire of native speakers of English. There is a divergence of syllables per pause rates between glossolalia and English. Optional articulatory choices characteristic of glossolalic samples can evidently be studied by means of accepted scientific procedures independently of theological or religious explication."(A phonemic analysis of nine samples of glossolalic speech
Ernest BryantDaniel O’Connell)
 
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mnorian

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As Apostle Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 13:1:

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal."

the language that Christians speak when they are speaking in tongues can be either earthly languages or heavenly languages; and if it's heavenly; then it's no wonder that linguists can't find any "earthly" understanding of them.
 
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rockytopva

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To me speaking in tongues is not about the language, but about the Holy Spirit in us.

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. - Acts 19

The Apostle Paul could not discern the Holy Spirit in these gentlemen's lives. So it is time to pray for them to receive it!
 
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Alithis

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And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition
hail Mary is a pointless repetition.. the same phrase over .. Since ,as you point out , no one can translate tongues ,it is impossible to say a person is repeating the same thing over and over .. it is impossible to say it is meaningless - keep it fair .
 
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TaylorSexton

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As Apostle Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 13:1:

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal."

the language that Christians speak when they are speaking in tongues can be either earthly languages or heavenly languages; and if it's heavenly; then it's no wonder that linguists can't find any "earthly" understanding of them.

I don't think so. This seems best to be purely a rhetorical device—hyperbole, to be exact. In other words, Paul isn't saying that there is such a thing as "tongues of angels," but is saying that even if there were such a possibility, if someone didn't have love while speaking it, it wouldn't matter.

This is shown by the fact that this is a third class conditional statement in Greek, which is introduced by the conditional particle ἐάν. It can signify a purely hypothetical situation, and that seems best to fit the situation here, especially given the rhetorical nature of what Paul is arguing before the Corinthians. At best, the third class conditional communicates a "more likely future" scenario, in which case Paul is still not saying that he speaks in angelic languages.

We use this sort of conditional all the time. For example, a staunch atheist might say, "Even if God exists, etc." They are in no way communicating that God's existence is a possibility by making this a conditional statement, but is rather using a statement to demonstrate their dogged devotion to their conviction. Another example might be the statement, "Even if the president were the wisest man on earth, he can't change hearts." One could rewrite the statement as, "Even if the president were the wisest man on earth (and he's not), he can't change hearts," and the intent of the conditional would not only remain intact, but be clearer and more accurate. Paul himself uses the same conditional statement in Galatians 1:8. He knows that there is no possibility that he or an angel from heaven will preach a different gospel, so he uses the third class conditional. Stated differently, "Even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you (and we can't), let them be under God’s curse!" However, notice that in the very next verse, when describing other men preaching a different gospel (which is entirely possible!), he uses a first class conditional, which assumes that the condition is true for the sake of the argument.

Furthermore, can you find a single example in Scripture of heavenly beings speaking anything other than human languages? You would be hard pressed.

It seems reasonable to conclude, then, that Paul is not making a statement about himself, but using hyperbole to achieve the desired effect of showing the Corinthians their own error in their lustful pursuit of powerful and flamboyant gifts at the expense of love. A crucial aspect of proper interpretation of epistle is to understand that conditional statements do not assert the reality of the condition given.
 
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swordsman1

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As Apostle Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 13:1:

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal."

the language that Christians speak when they are speaking in tongues can be either earthly languages or heavenly languages;

That's not the way I see it when you look at the verse in context. 1 Cor 13:1-3 consists of 5 parallel statements to emphasize the worthlessness of having spiritual gifts without love. Paul is pointing out that even if someone possessed spiritual gifts to the highest conceivable degree, but not have love, it would be to no avail. Each of them is a IF statement, where he presents 5 extreme hypothetical examples to make his point:

"If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal."

Even if someone had the gift of tongues to such a degree that they spoke in the language of angels, but didn't have love, it would be worthless to them.

"If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge;...but do not have love, I am nothing."

Even if someone had the gift of prophecy to such a degree that they knew ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge (ie was omniscient), but didn't have love, it would be worthless to them.

"and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."

Even if someone had the gift of faith to such a degree that they could remove mountains, but didn't have love, it would be a worthless to them.

"And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, ...but do not have love, it profits me nothing."

Even if someone had the gift of giving to such a degree that they gave ALL their possessions to the poor, but didn't have love, it would be worthless to them.

"and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing."

Even if someone had the gift of giving to such a degree that they gave their own life, but didn't have love, it would be worthless to them.

None of these extreme hypothetical examples represents the normal operations of those gifts, including speaking with the tongues of angels. The statements are clearly presented as parallels, so you cannot say one is to be taken as being the normal operation, while the others are not.

Notice that in each case Paul prefaces the hypothetical with the the normal operation of the gift: "If I speak with the tongues of men...", "If I have the gift of prophecy...", "if I have all faith...", "if I give...". So the normal operation of the gift of tongues is to speak in the tongues of men (not the hypothetical tongues of angels).
 
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Alithis

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Malony & Lovekin (1985:5) conclude:

"Although tongue speakers often claim that their new language is French or Italian or Spanish, and so on – languages they never knew before – scientific studies to date have not confirmed their claims."

T. H. Spoerril has described this speech as "unsemantical conglomerations of sounds" and "as sound externalized without sense which sometimes produces the impression of coherent speech." The terms "unintelligible," "meaningless," and "jibberish" have also been applied to the entities representing this type of speech.
Boisen, A. T. Religion in Crisis and Custom: A sociological and Psychological study. New York, Harper, 1955.

In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words .And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.…..- bet no one can translate that either ;)
 
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Daniel Marsh

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5 There were many religious Jews staying in Jerusalem. They were from every country of the world. 6 When they heard this strange sound, they gathered together. They all listened! It was hard for them to believe they were hearing words in their own language. 7 They were surprised and wondered about it. They said to each other, “Are not these Galileans who are speaking? 8 How is it that each one of us can hear his own language? 9 We are Parthians and Medes, Elamites and from the countries of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and in the countries of Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene. Some have come from the city of Rome. Some are Jews by birth and others have become Jews. 11 Some are also men of the countries of Crete and Arabia. They are speaking of the powerful works of God to all of us in our own language!”(Acts 2)

Tongues: Intelligible Language
In an effort to exhort the Corinthian Christians toward a greater level of concern for one another in their use of “spiritual gifts,” Paul wrote this admonition. “If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become a sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal” (1 Cor. 13:1).

If it can be established that the term “tongues,” when employed with reference to men, has to do with intelligent communication (and such can be demonstrated: see the article referenced above), then it must be conceded that the word “tongues,” when used of angels, similarly signifies an understandable language.

In order for the “Pentecostal” view to be valid, there would have to be some compelling contextual evidence to indicate that the term “tongues” is used in two different senses in this passage, and there simply is none.

Unintelligible Tongues Are Unloving
In chapter 14 of the first Corinthian letter, one of Paul’s major points of emphasis is this. If one employs his gift of tongues before an audience that cannot understand the language spoken, and no interpreter is present to translate the message, such would be a violation of God’s will. In fact, it would be an act of vanity, and not a demonstration of love for the listener.

This is the precise point of 13:1 as well. To speak in a tongue, when no one can understand the words, is an act void of love. Such would be nothing more than a sound (an irritating noise); it would not be an instructive message.

The implication behind the argument is this. If the gift were exercised properly, i.e., in conjunction with an interpreter, the audience could understand the instruction, and such would evince the speaker’s love.

But the identical point is made whether the allusion is to “the tongues of men” or to the “tongues of angels.” Even the tongues of angels, if it were possible to exercise such in an appropriate way, could be understood. There is nothing here suggesting a “gibberish” sort of utterance; just the opposite is the case.

Angels Always Spoke Understandably
There are numerous Bible examples of angels speaking to men. In not a single instance do they communicate in anything except in languages that are perfectly understandable — a communication that the recipient can process readily. There is not one shred of biblical evidence to suggest that angels speak in disjointed, incomprehensible sounds. As one scholar astutely observed:

With respect to the words of angels which are recorded in the Scriptures, nothing can be plainer, more direct, and, we may say, more unimpassioned. They seem to say with the utmost conceivable plainness what they have been commissioned to say, and nothing more. No words are less the words of ecstasy than theirs (Sadler, 217).

Angel’s Tongues: Hyperbole
Paul’s appeal to “angels” in 13:1 is a form of hyperbole (an exaggeration for emphasis’ sake) that is designed to accentuate his argument.

Consider a similar use of this figurative expression in the apostle’s letter to the Galatians. He wrote:

“But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema” (Gal. 1:8; emphasis added).

The apostle is not suggesting that an angel actually is likely to proclaim a different gospel; the point is one of emphasis. Even if an angel were to preach a different gospel, there would be no validity in it, and he would fall victim to divine wrath.

So similarly, in 1 Corinthians 13:1, Paul is not indicating that some Christians speak an “angelic” (ecstatic) language. Rather, he is merely saying that even if one could ascend to a new height, and communicate on the level of angels, if he did not exercise love by speaking in an understandable fashion, he still would be nothing but a distracting noise. The apostle’s argument does not hint of a mysterious, unintelligible utterance; in fact, it reflects just the opposite.

When all the data is considered, there is no basis in 1 Corinthians 13:1 for the notion that there is a heavenly, ecstatic “glossolalia” that some saints are able to access, whereby they speak to God alone.

REFERENCES
  • M. F. Sadler. 1906. The First and Second Epistles to the Corinthians. George Bell and Sons: London, England.
SCRIPTURE REFERENCES
1 Corinthians 13:1; Galatians 1:8
CITE THIS ARTICLE
Jackson, Wayne. "What Are the "Tongues of Angels" in 1 Corinthians 13:1?" ChristianCourier.com. Access date: November 29, 2016. https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/671-what-are-the-tongues-of-angels-in-1-corinthians-13-1

Mark 16:17
These special powerful works will be done by those who have put their trust in Me. In My name they will put out demons. They will speak with languages they have never learned.

1 Corinthians 14:10
There are many languages in the world. All of them have meaning to the people who understand them.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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That's not the way I see it when you look at the verse in context. 1 Cor 13:1-3 consists of 5 parallel statements to emphasize the worthlessness of having spiritual gifts without love. Paul is pointing out that even if someone possessed spiritual gifts to the highest conceivable degree, but not have love, it would be to no avail. Each of them is a IF statement, where he presents 5 extreme hypothetical examples to make his point:

"If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal."

Even if someone had the gift of tongues to such a degree that they spoke in the language of angels, but didn't have love, it would be worthless to them.

"If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge;...but do not have love, I am nothing."

Even if someone had the gift of prophecy to such a degree that they knew ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge (ie was omniscient), but didn't have love, it would be worthless to them.

"and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."

Even if someone had the gift of faith to such a degree that they could remove mountains, but didn't have love, it would be a worthless to them.

"And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, ...but do not have love, it profits me nothing."

Even if someone had the gift of giving to such a degree that they gave ALL their possessions to the poor, but didn't have love, it would be worthless to them.

"and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing."

Even if someone had the gift of giving to such a degree that they gave their own life, but didn't have love, it would be worthless to them.

None of these extreme hypothetical examples represents the normal operations of those gifts, including speaking with the tongues of angels. The statements are clearly presented as parallels, so you cannot say one is to be taken as being the normal operation, while the others are not.

Notice that in each case Paul prefaces the hypothetical with the the normal operation of the gift: "If I speak with the tongues of men...", "If I have the gift of prophecy...", "if I have all faith...", "if I give...". So the normal operation of the gift of tongues is to speak in the tongues of men (not the hypothetical tongues of angels).
 
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Daniel Marsh

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In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words .And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.…..- bet no one can translate that either ;)


On Romans 8:26 it clearly says the human tongue is unable to speak what the Holy Spirit is groaning, thus it is NOT speaking in languages.

Romans 8:26-27King James Version (KJV)
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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hail Mary is a pointless repetition.. the same phrase over .. Since ,as you point out , no one can translate tongues ,it is impossible to say a person is repeating the same thing over and over .. it is impossible to say it is meaningless - keep it fair .

I have no idea what planet your on, because your anti-catholic statement has nothing to do with the topic --- I am not even catholic.

Matthew 6:7
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

But, in studying tongues by recording it and having a computer analysis of the recordings, all tongue speakers are doing is repetitions of sounds, not a language of any kind.

Why does not two people give the same interpretation of the same recorded tongues example? Why does the interpretation vary so much in length of the recording?
 
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Alithis

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On Romans 8:26 it clearly says the human tongue is unable to speak what the Holy Spirit is groaning, thus it is NOT speaking in languages.

Romans 8:26-27King James Version (KJV)
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
so god who is spirit cant speak ? he has no tongue, he is spirit
See.. your trying to jam it all into such a tiny wee little odd shaped box we call a skull and when it wont fit you try to cancel it ?
and correct ..it cannot be uttered- by us . but can be by the Spirit because it is spiritual not carnal not of this temporal world but of Gods eternal kingdom . not comprehensible by this carnal nature .

you're basically trying to say, because you cant comprehend it that its not so. and you simply cannot do so and be honest at the same time .
you can say
"you don't know " ..you can say, "you don't believe it " but you cant say "its not so "
 
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Alithis

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I have no idea what planet your on, because your anti-catholic statement has nothing to do with the topic --- I am not even catholic.

Matthew 6:7
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

But, in studying tongues by recording it and having a computer analysis of the recordings, all tongue speakers are doing is repetitions of sounds, not a language of any kind.

Why does not two people give the same interpretation of the same recorded tongues example? Why does the interpretation vary so much in length of the recording?
i dont care if your catholic of not lol. the point was .. a vain repetition is saying the same phrase over and over ..i'm on planet earth btw ,thanks . , if you cant translate what is being said then you cant say it is vain repetition can you. i mean be honest .
 
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Daniel Marsh

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computer research on repetition of sounds, not language.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=computer+analysis+speaking+in+tongues+research+repetition

Samarin analyzes the speech of tongue-speakers in the same
manner that a linguist analyzes a foreign language. He makes a
phonetic and semantic inventory, and describes its prosodic and
paralinguistic features. The discourse "is divided into units of
speech . . . through accent, rhythm, intonation and pauses" (p.
78). "The breathgroup itself can often be divided into subgroups
through phonological features" (p. 79). It consists of syllables
made up of consonants and vowels taken from the speaker's
native language or a foreign language known to him, with much
repetition, alliteration, and rhyme. However, the "syllable string
does not fall into words" (p. 81), even though one gets the feeling
that "words are almost emerging" (p. 82).
In comparing glossolalia to real language Samarin shows how
the two differ in form and function. In form, real language is a ...(A Linguistic Analysis of
Glossolalia ...................................... Theodore Mueller 185)
 
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Daniel Marsh

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I have a big case which anyone can duplicate.

Simply record various samples of "tongues" have various people with the gift of interpretation translate them and ask translators to translate them.

On several occasions, I took recordings of languages likely not known in the English speaking world of works that have been translated and asked them to translate them --- to date, not a single person has gotten it even close within right. God allows and honors fleeces. He is also, not the god of chaos. Everyone at Pentecost heard them speaking in their own languages which tells me God gives us known real languages, not noise.

Paul uses the illustration of music to say the languages from him have meaning otherwise, no one would heed the sound of attack.
 
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Data from recent neuroimaging studies on stuttering give us insights into the possible bases of these fluency-inducing conditions in stuttering speakers. The main brain regions that work together to make fluent speech production possible include areas in the frontal cortex of the brain, which controls movement planning and execution, and auditory sensory regions located farther back, in the temporoparietal cortex. Regions deeper within the brain, including the basal ganglia, thalamus, and cerebellum, also support speech movements by providing internal timing and sequencing cues. It is in these brain regions and their connections that researchers have found brain function and anatomy differences between stuttering speakers and fluent speakers.
http://dana.org/Cerebrum/2011/Using_Brain_Imaging_to_Unravel_the_Mysteries_of_Stuttering/
 
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Daniel Marsh

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i dont care if your catholic of not lol. the point was .. a vain repetition is saying the same phrase over and over ..i'm on planet earth btw ,thanks . , if you cant translate what is being said then you cant say it is vain repetition can you. i mean be honest .

Yes, because the tongue speaking thing was common in some of the mystery cults that Jesus was speaking against at the time.

Greece had long experience of the utterances of the Pythian prophetess at Delphi and the enthusiastic invocations of the votaries of Dionysus. Hence Paul insists that it is not the phenomenon of "tongues" or prophesying in itself that gives evidence of the presence and activity of the Holy Spirit, but the actual content of the utterances.25

With the ecstacisrn of Dionysianism and the emphasis on tongues-speaking and oracles in the religion of Apollo, it is not surprising that some of the Corinthians carried these pagan ideas in the church at Corinth, especially the practice of glossolalia for which both of these religions are known (though the Dionysian cult did not include interpretation of the glossolalia as did that of Apollo) .
http://www.seeking4truth.com/tongues_corinth.html

Too often we regard speaking in tongues as a purely Christian phenomenon, but it was known in the ancient ecstatic religions; and Aristophanes in Frogs mentions ’the tongue of Bacchos’ (357). While a heathen might babble without consciousness of what he was saying, there is no indication that speaking a known language without prior instruction was practiced outside of a Christian context.
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sumer_anunnaki/reptiles/reptiles11.htm
 
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The most ancient evidence that we have is from the report of Winamon, a young man who was the worshipper of the Egyptian God Amon. The report which is dated approximately 1100 BC says that as he was worshipping Amon in the temple he was overwhelmed in a state of frenzy which continued throughout the night and he spoke in some ecstatic language. We don’t know if it was a legitimate language or just religious frenzy, gibberish, but it is clear that the tongues was the direct result of this kind of possession and control by a god, although it just could have been brought on by emotion which is true in a lot of cases.

Plato also reports religious ecstatics in roughly the 5th century BC. In the accounts we can observe that in each instance reported by Plato the speaker had no control over his mental faculties, he did not know what he was saying, there was the need for some sort of interpreter or diviner who would tell what was said, and the person was allegedly under the control of a god.


Virgil, writing about 17-19 BC, mentions a Sibyline priestess who would go into an ecstatic state where she was unified with the spirit of Apollo, and she would begin to speak in tongues, in ecstatic utterance. They claimed that it was known language. This is in pagan Greek worship of Apollo that she was probably possessed by a demon and spoke in a legitimate or a known language as well as in incoherent gibberish. http://www.divineviewpoint.com/sane/dbm/setup/1Corinth/1Cor087.htm

CHURCH AND GENTILE CULTS AT CORINTH MARK HARDING
 
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