Do Not Assume That I have Come to Bring Peace

[keras]

It is natural and quite right that Christians should engage in debate over what the Bible says about the last days and the Return of Jesus. After all, the Bible has a lot to tell us about these issues. Regardless of one’s worldview or faith, the Bible is an ancient and vitally important book that has shaped the course of history and will continue to in the future.

But how can it be that there are so many differing opinions as to what will take place? We do, [mostly] all agree on the most essential point – that is, Jesus will physically Return to earth. It is in the timing of His Return and who exactly is the nation, the people that He Returns to, that there is disagreement.

Jesus said; Do not assume that I have come to bring peace on the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34-36
Luke 12:49 I have come to set fire to the earth and how I wish it were already kindled.

Jesus makes statements that contradict today’s picture of Him as a gentle pacifist and seems to differ from what the angels announced at His birth, but it isn’t; they told of the beginning of this age of enmity between God and humanity and the eventual final reconciliation. Matthew 3:12, Psalms 110:5-6

Until that happens, we are still in that age of enmity and God must impose consequences on both our good and evil choices. We have free will, mostly so that we can freely love Him, because only freely chosen love is true love. Thus, if God only rewarded the good but left the evil unpunished, He would act arbitrarily, against His just nature and our free choices would be meaningless.



From Isaiah 63:1-6...I resolved on a Day of vengeance.... we have a graphic description of the Lord carrying out His just retribution against His enemies. The reason for their destruction is foretold in Romans 9:22-23, Hebrews 10:26-27.
Many other passages describe this soon to happen, terrible Day of the Lords wrath. This cannot be at the same time as the Return of Jesus, as the Day of the Lord is a worldwide event, whereas at His Return, Jesus disposes of the beast, the False Prophet and the armies attacking Jerusalem, by the Sword of His Word and NOT by fire.

The fact that the Lord’s garments become blood stained during His Day of vengeance, then - at His Return, it states that He “is robed in a garment dyed in blood”, this proves that the Day of the Lord is some time before His Return.

Isaiah 66:15-16 See; the Lord is coming in fire, His chariots like a whirlwind, bringing retribution in His furious anger. The Lord will judge with fire – by His sword He will test all mankind. Many will be slain by Him.

Many people today, combine prophecies like Isaiah 63 & 66, the wrath of the Lord, with the Return of Jesus. To do this requires that you allegorize either these verses or the accurate descriptions of His Return in Revelation 19, Zechariah 14:3-5 and Matt 24:30

Psalm 50:1-6 The Lord God has spoken and summoned the world. He shines from Zion, in His glory. He will not remain silent, a consuming fire goes before Him and storms rage around Him. The heavens and the earth look on at the judging of His people. Gather to Me, My loyal servants, those, who by sacrifice have made a covenant with Me. The heavens will proclaim His justice, for God Himself is judge. Ezekiel 34:11-16

The Lord’s loyal servants are gathered into Zion, all the Promised Land. Ezekiel 20:34-38 Then, it isn’t until later, when the Great Tribulation is over, that Jesus Returns, destroys His attackers, gathers all His people and reigns for 1000 years.

Therefore, the next event on the prophetic calendar is the Lords Day of vengeance.

 

[sandman]

I know we don't agree on this ....but it's after the gathering together unto Him.

 

[public hermit]

Therefore, the next event on the prophetic calendar is the Lords Day of vengeance

For God so loved the world...God took vengeance on all who could not free themselves from their destiny to sin. Praise God!

 

[eleos1954]

It is natural and quite right that Christians should engage in debate over what the Bible says about the last days and the Return of Jesus. After all, the Bible has a lot to tell us about these issues. Regardless of one’s worldview or faith, the Bible is an ancient and vitally important book that has shaped the course of history and will continue to in the future.

But how can it be that there are so many differing opinions as to what will take place? We do, [mostly] all agree on the most essential point – that is, Jesus will physically Return to earth. It is in the timing of His Return and who exactly is the nation, the people that He Returns to, that there is disagreement.

Jesus said; Do not assume that I have come to bring peace on the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34-36
Luke 12:49 I have come to set fire to the earth and how I wish it were already kindled.

Jesus makes statements that contradict today’s picture of Him as a gentle pacifist and seems to differ from what the angels announced at His birth, but it isn’t; they told of the beginning of this age of enmity between God and humanity and the eventual final reconciliation. Matthew 3:12, Psalms 110:5-6

Until that happens, we are still in that age of enmity and God must impose consequences on both our good and evil choices. We have free will, mostly so that we can freely love Him, because only freely chosen love is true love. Thus, if God only rewarded the good but left the evil unpunished, He would act arbitrarily, against His just nature and our free choices would be meaningless.



From Isaiah 63:1-6...I resolved on a Day of vengeance.... we have a graphic description of the Lord carrying out His just retribution against His enemies. The reason for their destruction is foretold in Romans 9:22-23, Hebrews 10:26-27.
Many other passages describe this soon to happen, terrible Day of the Lords wrath. This cannot be at the same time as the Return of Jesus, as the Day of the Lord is a worldwide event, whereas at His Return, Jesus disposes of the beast, the False Prophet and the armies attacking Jerusalem, by the Sword of His Word and NOT by fire.

The fact that the Lord’s garments become blood stained during His Day of vengeance, then - at His Return, it states that He “is robed in a garment dyed in blood”, this proves that the Day of the Lord is some time before His Return.

Isaiah 66:15-16 See; the Lord is coming in fire, His chariots like a whirlwind, bringing retribution in His furious anger. The Lord will judge with fire – by His sword He will test all mankind. Many will be slain by Him.

Many people today, combine prophecies like Isaiah 63 & 66, the wrath of the Lord, with the Return of Jesus. To do this requires that you allegorize either these verses or the accurate descriptions of His Return in Revelation 19, Zechariah 14:3-5 and Matt 24:30

Psalm 50:1-6 The Lord God has spoken and summoned the world. He shines from Zion, in His glory. He will not remain silent, a consuming fire goes before Him and storms rage around Him. The heavens and the earth look on at the judging of His people. Gather to Me, My loyal servants, those, who by sacrifice have made a covenant with Me. The heavens will proclaim His justice, for God Himself is judge. Ezekiel 34:11-16

The Lord’s loyal servants are gathered into Zion, all the Promised Land. Ezekiel 20:34-38 Then,** it isn’t until later, when the Great Tribulation is over, that Jesus Returns, destroys His attackers, gathers all His people and reigns for 1000 years.

Therefore, the next event on the prophetic calendar is the Lords Day of vengeance.

well ... people make the mistake that Jesus will reign on earth for the 1,000 days ... and that is not so .... when He returns the first resurrection happens (of the saved) and they are taken to heaven for the 1,000 days and the earth is left in a desolate state until the 2nd resurrection occurs (of the lost after the 1,000) years.

**This is due to the belief that a literal temple will be built in literal modern day Jerusalem. The temple of God is a spiritual one.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17

Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

1 Peter 2:4-5 ESV

As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:21-22 ESV

In whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

John 2:19-21 ESV

Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?” But he was speaking about the temple of his body.

The Jews didn’t get the spiritual aspect either. They were “stuck” in the literal as well.

Acts 17:24

The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands.

All will go through the Great Tribulation …. But it will be cut short.


Matthew 24:22, NIV: If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.


The earth is left desolate at His return …. But it is not the full end.

Matthew 24:29 ESV

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Nobody on earth can live under these conditions (above)

2 Thessalonians 2:8

Berean Study Bible

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.

Think spiritual .... not literal.

 

[Clare73]

It is natural and quite right that Christians should engage in debate over what the Bible says about the last days and the Return of Jesus. After all, the Bible has a lot to tell us about these issues. Regardless of one’s worldview or faith, the Bible is an ancient and vitally important book that has shaped the course of history and will continue to in the future.

But how can it be that there are so many differing opinions as to what will take place? We do, [mostly] all agree on the most essential point – that is, Jesus will physically Return to earth. It is in the timing of His Return and who exactly is the nation, the people that He Returns to, that there is disagreement.

Jesus said; Do not assume that I have come to bring peace on the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34-36
Luke 12:49 I have come to set fire to the earth and how I wish it were already kindled.

Jesus makes statements that contradict today’s picture of Him as a gentle pacifist and seems to differ from what the angels announced at His birth, but it isn’t; they told of the beginning of this age of enmity between God and humanity and the eventual final reconciliation. Matthew 3:12, Psalms 110:5-6

Until that happens, we are still in that age of enmity and God must impose consequences on both our good and evil choices. We have free will, mostly so that we can freely love Him, because only freely chosen love is true love. Thus, if God only rewarded the good but left the evil unpunished, He would act arbitrarily, against His just nature and our free choices would be meaningless.

Did not Jesus come to bring peace between God and the sinner (Eph 2:17-18), not peace to the world?

 

[keras]

Think spiritual .... not literal.

The fact is: we live in a physical world and the Prophesies describe physical things and events.
Spiritualizing what we are told of God's plans for our future, just leaves one in the dark.

Did not Jesus come to bring peace between God and the sinner (Eph 2:17-18), not peace to the world?

Only for those who accept the Salvation offered.
The world will only be peaceful when Satan is chained up. Revelation 20:1-3 During the Millennium. Micah 4:1-5, +

 

[Clare73]

The fact is: we live in a physical world and the Prophesies describe physical things and events.
Spiritualizing what we are told of God's plans for our future, just leaves one in the dark.

Only for those who accept the Salvation offered.
The world will only be peaceful when Satan is chained up. Revelation 20:1-3 During the Millennium. Micah 4:1-5, +

The world will be peaceful only in the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness.

 

[eleos1954]

The fact is: we live in a physical world and the Prophesies describe physical things and events.
Spiritualizing what we are told of God's plans for our future, just leaves one in the dark.

Only for those who accept the Salvation offered.
The world will only be peaceful when Satan is chained up. Revelation 20:1-3 During the Millennium. Micah 4:1-5, +

The fact is: we live in a physical world and the Prophesies describe physical things and events.
Spiritualizing what we are told of God's plans for our future, just leaves one in the dark.

Only for those who accept the Salvation offered.
The world will only be peaceful when Satan is chained up. Revelation 20:1-3 During the Millennium. Micah 4:1-5, +

Revelation 22:12

English Standard Version
“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.

Judgement has taken place before He comes (1st resurrection) .... He takes the saved to heaven for the 1,000 years. If judgement hasn't taken place before He comes ..... then how does He know who to resurrect? (in the 1st which is of the saved).

Is this a physical beast?

Revelation 13:1

Berean Standard Bible
Then I saw a beast with ten horns and seven heads rising out of the sea. There were ten royal crowns on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.

Symbolism is all over the Bible. Of course there is literal history ... the Lord often refers to historical events and uses them either literally but many times symbolically to convey spiritual truths ... it helps us understand the spiritual.

So God is going to put satan in physical chains?

There is no need for a earthly temple .... Jesus ministers from the temple in heaven ..... the REAL one.

Hebrews 9:1
Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary.

Hebrews 9:11
But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that have come, He went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made by hands and is not a part of this creation.

The earthly temple was symbolic of the heavenly temple in order that the Isratites of that time (and us) could understand how salvation takes place. The Jews of those days missed what the temple was about. ... they trusted they sanctuary system .... rather than WHO the sanctuary system was about ... the plan of salvation in Christ Jesus.

Please address these verses from my previous post .... how are they physical?

well ... people make the mistake that Jesus will reign on earth for the 1,000 days ... and that is not so .... when He returns the first resurrection happens (of the saved) and they are taken to heaven for the 1,000 days and the earth is left in a desolate state until the 2nd resurrection occurs (of the lost after the 1,000) years.

**This is due to the belief that a literal temple will be built in literal modern day Jerusalem. The temple of God is a spiritual one.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17

Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

1 Peter 2:4-5 ESV

As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being (in process) built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:21-22 ESV

In whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

John 2:19-21 ESV

Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?” But he was speaking about the temple of his body.

The Jews didn’t get the spiritual aspect either. They were “stuck” in the literal as well.

Acts 17:24

The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and *does not live in temples made by human hands.
*true or false?

All will go through the Great Tribulation …. But it will be cut short.


Matthew 24:22, NIV: If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.


The earth is left desolate at His return …. But it is not the full end.

Matthew 24:29 ESV

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Nobody on earth can live under these conditions (above)

2 Thessalonians 2:8

Berean Study Bible

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.

Think spiritual .... not literal.

***

Hebrews 12:22-24​

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

A heavenly Jerusalem .... a heavenly Mount Zion .... spiritual ... not earthly.

Psalm 103:19 l​

The Lord has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all.

He rules from the sanctuary heaven ... the REAL one.

Philippians 3:20​

But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

Jesus lives in His people through His Spirit. It is a spiritual relationship and will remain so until He returns.

John 14:1-3​

“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

Where is Jesus? He is in heaven. We go to where He is ... not the other way around.

Galations 3

26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28**There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

*true or false?

It's not about modern day Israel .... it's ALL about Jesus. It is finished. Everything is in place ... we enjoy a spiritual relationship with Him ... until He returns the THEN the spiritual will become the physical.

Jesus lives in His people through His Spirit ... until His return.

 

[keras]

Think spiritual .... not literal.

Why?
Do you not like the vivid and graphic Prophesies as given to us in our Bibles?
They are all about earthly things and events, until the final Judgment, Revelation 20:11-15 then - Eternity, the Spiritual existence

Jesus lives in His people through His Spirit ... until His return.

Right, but we remain physical, mortal beings until the final Judgment. We never go to live in heaven, eventually God and therefore heaven, comes to us. Revelation 21:1-7
.

 

[eleos1954]

Why?
Do you not like the vivid and graphic Prophesies as given to us in our Bibles?
They are all about earthly things and events, until the final Judgment, Revelation 20:11-15 then - Eternity, the Spiritual existence

Right, but we remain physical, mortal beings until the final Judgment. We never go to live in heaven, eventually God and therefore heaven, comes to us. Revelation 21:1-7
.

My bible says we go where He is ..... and He is in the sanctuary in heaven .... the real one.


John 14

In My Father's House are Many Rooms
…2In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.

Why prepare a place if nobody is going there?

 

[eleos1954]

The fact is: we live in a physical world and the Prophesies describe physical things and events.
Spiritualizing what we are told of God's plans for our future, just leaves one in the dark.

Only for those who accept the Salvation offered.
The world will only be peaceful when Satan is chained up. Revelation 20:1-3 During the Millennium. Micah 4:1-5, +

We have a spiritual relationship with the Lord ..... not a physical one.

Colossians 3 :: NIV. Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

We are not in the dark ..... we have His written word and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Chained up ..... will satan be physically chained up?

The book of Revelation is especially highly symbolic .... anyone can see that.

Acts 17:24
The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands.

​

 

[keras]

My bible says we go where He is ..... and He is in the sanctuary in heaven .... the real one.

Jesus said: I will return to the earth and reign for a thousand years. Acts 1:11, Revelation 19:11

Why prepare a place if nobody is going there?

The new Jerusalem come to the earth after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1

We have a spiritual relationship with the Lord ..... not a physical one.

Yes; for this Church age. But we remain as physical humans until the final Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15

The book of Revelation is especially highly symbolic .... anyone can see that.

Only those with the agenda of diluting and abrogating God's Word, see that.
There are some metaphors and symbols, which can be easily explained, the rest will take place as described. Why not?

the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands.

God did before, in Solomons Temple, and He will do so again; Ezekiel 43:1-5

 

[Trivalee]

I know we don't agree on this ....but it's after the gathering together unto Him.


View attachment 326804

There are THREE dimensions of the gospel. Unfortunately, many Christians neither understand nor recognise which phase of the gospel we are in presently.

The FIRST is the gospel of grace. This is the beginning point of the gospel and an invitation to all and sundry to take advantage of Christ's sacrifice on the cross and the free salvation it offers. By death, Jesus became the door through which one may enter to re-establish a relationship with the Father. The gospel of grace is God's appeal to individuals to be reconciled with the Lord their God. It is an appeal for repentance 2 Corinthians 5:20 and its primary target are individuals.

The SECOND is the gospel of the kingdom. This is how the Bible introduced the ministry of Jesus Christ after his baptism by John the Baptist. Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God. The gospel of the kingdom expands the scope beyond an individual appeal to include people groups and nations. The gospel of the kingdom is God's notice to the inhabitants of the earth that he has a dominion that extends to the earth. Jesus taught us to pray "Thy Kingdom come" Matt 6:9.

According to God's calendar, we are now in the gospel of the kingdom period that will pave the way for the return of the Lord in glory, Matthew 24:14. The eternal destiny of nation-states will be determined by how they respond to this gospel, i.e. whether the nation will be a goat or sheep nation, Psalm 9:17 & Matt 25:31 34. The gospel of the kingdom opens the way for nations to take part on earth after the Lord returns, Joel 3:1-3.

The THIRD is the everlasting gospel. Rev 14:6-7 introduces this final phase of the gospel period.

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. The everlasting gospel unveils the eternal purpose of God in Christ.

The scope of the everlasting gospel goes beyond individuals and nation-states and covers the whole universe including heaven and earth. Thus, its proclamation is committed to an angel and not man. Notice that it is proclaimed from the middle heaven, ie the second heaven, Satan's sphere of operation that has been a conflict between God's angels and Satan's principalities, see Dan 10:13-21. As God is just, the falling angels and principalities that will be judged also have to hear the gospel, Ephesians 3:10-11.

Unlike the gospel of grace and the kingdom, the eternal gospel is not an appeal for repentance (satan and his angels are beyond repentance). It is rather a warning to nations, languages and peoples of God's imminent judgment (fear God and give him glory for the hour of His judgment is come).