Do non-Christians Have a Chance to Go to Heaven?

[Shibolet]

The Bible teaches that only though a firm belief in.. and the practice of.. Loving kindness, Righteousness, Justice, Peace, Wisdom, Truth & Freedom... (the Seven Spirits of God.. which are the Holy Spirit.. that Christ manifested in his words.. thoughts and actions).... can anyone obtain everlasting life.. So it seems.. even an atheists who believe and practice these 7 core human values.. can go to heaven.. while Christians who ignore believing in.. and practicing.. the teachings of Jesus concerning these 7 core human values - The Seven Spirits of God - go nowhere..

Absolutely, under no circumstances man can achieve everlasting life. The attribute of eternal life belongs with HaShem only. If you read Genesis 3:22,23 the reason why Adam & Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden was to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. Every thing that has had a beginning, must have an end. This attribute was placed into the nature of being human. Everlasting life belongs with HaShem only. That attribute could not be shared with man. But let not this bother you. You can be just as happy with the life you have to live and to enjoy.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes non-Christians may go to heaven - see Romans 2:13-16.

Yes, if they are astronauts. Okay, I am kidding! What heaven are you talking about? Jesus said that heavens or the Kingdom of Heaven is akin to a peaceful state of mind which we are rather expected to let it come into ourselves if you read Luke 17:21. If this is what you mean, not only Christians but also non-Christians all have that chance. That's what we were all born for; to achieve that state of mind.

Jesus said
John 14
“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And you know the way where I am going.”

Jesus said
John 18
33 Therefore Pilate entered again into the Praetorium, and summoned Jesus and said to Him, “Are You the King of the Jews?” 34 Jesus answered, “Are you saying this on your own initiative, or did others tell you about Me?” 35 Pilate answered, “I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priests delivered You to me; what have You done?” 36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.” 37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.” 38 Pilate *said to Him, “What is truth?”
And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews and *said to them, “I find no guilt in Him.

Jesus said
Matt 24
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

[BobRyan]

Absolutely, under no circumstances man can achieve everlasting life. The attribute of eternal life belongs with HaShem only. If you read Genesis 3:22,23 the reason why Adam & Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden was to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. Every thing that has had a beginning, must have an end.

True - that is under the curse of sin.

The Gospel is about redemption and escape from that problem. Fixing the problem and returning mankind to paradise.

Revelation 2
5 Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent. 6 Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’

Revelation 21
Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
6 And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.
7 “And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.”

 

[Shibolet]

the curse of sin.

The Gospel is about redemption and escape from that problem. Fixing the problem and returning mankind to paradise.

Revelation 2:5 Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent. 6 Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’
Revelation 21 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. ”[/QUOTE]

The gospel is about Replacement Theology. Every time a doctrine is taught from the NT which contradicts any thing in the Tanach, that's Replacement Theology. The only way to fix the problem caused by the curse of sin is obedience to God's Law. That's what Jesus himself said in Luke 16:29-31. "We must listen to "Moses" aka the Law.

 

[Shibolet]

deleted

 

[TurtleAnne]

I don't know, but I will try to save them, regardless, in a last ditch effort at the end of my mortal life, if they are not already saved, a try for those I know and love, personally, since it makes more sense to be able to forgive someone you actually know, and then a try for everyone if I have enough time to get the thought out before I'm dead.

In John 20, I found:

Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

The first time I read this it kind of blew my mind, because the way I interpreted it by default the first time (while I was just on a roll reading the chapter) was that if you have the Holy Spirit in you, and you genuinely forgive someone, then they are forgiven, like, period.

It stunned me so much I just stared at it for a while, second-guessing my interpretation over and over. I asked my pastor about it but he never responded to my question, even after saying he would within a couple days (but several days passed and no response), which seemed weird. I figured something as possibly significant as this would have already been debated very, very heavily (and maybe it has and I just have not found those debates yet).

But anyway it gave me a massive surge of hope. I am going to try my very best to follow Jesus' teachings, and then when it is my time to die, so I will have made it as far as I can in regards to being molded into what God wants me to be, it will be my dying prayer to declare my forgiveness of others, God will know exactly who I have in my mind, just in case my initial interpretation of that verse was not wrong.

I mean I was very stunned, second-guessing over and over, because at first it was just sort of startling, like the thought seemed blasphemous and since it is so emphasized in the Gospels that the only way is through Jesus, but then Jesus right there like bam, He gives them the Holy Spirit and then tells them they have the power to forgive-forgive people, as though it is as a result of receiving the Holy Spirit.

And in John 7 it is explained:

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

So we can definitely receive the Holy Spirit.

I'm just saying this all makes me feel extremely hopeful and the closest thing to "joyful" that I think I have ever felt in my life. It syncs up incredibly well with the rest of Jesus' teachings focusing on not condemning others but instead for humans to learn how to love, turn the other cheek (not seek vengeance) and to forgive, with one another.

I hope God will forgive me if the way I understood the scriptures was wrong and if I came across as blasphemous on accident, but if there is any chance I can save my non-believing loved ones, then I'm going for it.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said -

the curse of sin.

The Gospel is about redemption and escape from that problem. Fixing the problem and returning mankind to paradise.

True - that is under the curse of sin.

The Gospel is about redemption and escape from that problem. Fixing the problem and returning mankind to paradise.

Revelation 2
5 Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent. 6 Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’

Revelation 21
Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
6 And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.
7 “And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.”

Revelation 2:5 Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent. 6 Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’
Revelation 21 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. ”

The gospel is about Replacement Theology. Every time a doctrine is taught from the NT which contradicts any thing in the Tanach, that's Replacement Theology. The only way to fix the problem caused by the curse of sin is obedience to God's Law. That's what Jesus himself said in Luke 16:29-31. "We must listen to "Moses" aka the Law.

Obedience to the LAW of God is included.

"The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Revelation 14:12
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Corinthians 7:19
"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31
"I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" under the NEW covenant - Hebrews 8:6-10
"it is not the hearers of the LAW that are just before God but the DOERS of the LAW will be justifIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge" Romans 2:13-16

"The GOSPEL was preached to Abraham" Galatians 3:8
"We have had the GOSPEL preached to us just as they also" Hebrews 4:2

However -- you cannot get your speeding ticket cancelled by not-speeding after you get your ticket.

Obedience does not cancel out the debt of sin - owed.

The Gospel provides the payment that the law demands for violation, it provides the new birth where the sinner is given a new heart - and wants to obey instead of live in rebellion, it provides for adoption into the family of God, and it provides the power to obey that includes righteousness by faith.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

the curse of sin.

The Gospel is about redemption and escape from that problem. Fixing the problem and returning mankind to paradise.

Revelation 2:5 Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent. 6 Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’
Revelation 21 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. ”

The gospel is about Replacement Theology. Every time a doctrine is taught from the NT which contradicts any thing in the Tanach, that's Replacement Theology. The only way to fix the problem caused by the curse of sin is obedience to God's Law. That's what Jesus himself said in Luke 16:29-31. "We must listen to "Moses" aka the Law.

He also tore the veil in the temple in two and declared that your house (Jews/temple) is left unto you desolate (God not here no more). No replacement theology needed here to understand what was said...

 

[Shibolet]

He also tore the veil in the temple in two and declared that your house (Jews/temple) is left unto you desolate (God not here no more). No replacement theology needed here to understand what was said...

For instance, this that the veil in the Temple was torn in two is an act of promotion of Replacement Theology. How! Can you prove it? Where is it written? The Talmud that covered the period from 200 BCE to 200 ACE does not say any thing about it. If something like that had happened, the Talmud would say it did and would give the meaning of it.

 

[Shibolet]

Obedience to the LAW of God is included.

Obedience to a law he had been released from! (Romans 7:6) It makes no sense.

"The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Revelation 14:12 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Corinthians 7:19 "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31 "I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" under the NEW covenant - Hebrews 8:6-10 "it is not the hearers of the LAW that are just before God but the DOERS of the LAW will be justifIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge" Romans 2:13-16

According to the NAB translation, "Here are the saints of the Most High; here are they who keep the commandments of God and the Faith of Jesus." What was the Faith of Jesus? Judaism and the Tanach his gospel.(Rev.14:12) Now, what was the gospel of Paul? The NT. (Rom. 2:13-16) "My gospel," he said.

"The GOSPEL was preached to Abraham" Galatians 3:8 "We have had the GOSPEL preached to us just as they also" Hebrews 4:2. However -- you cannot get your speeding ticket cancelled by not-speeding after you get your ticket. Obedience does not cancel out the debt of sin - owed.

Which gospel, Paul's! You must be kidding! Regarding the speeding ticket, simply logical! And for obedience, one needs three things: Repentance, restoration and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19)

The Gospel provides the payment that the law demands for violation, it provides the new birth where the sinner is given a new heart - and wants to obey instead of live in rebellion, it provides for adoption into the family of God, and it provides the power to obey that includes righteousness by faith.

The gospel, like the Law, provides only the information on how to set things
right with HaShem so that our sins, from scarlet red become as white as snow. Any thing beyond that would be an infringement to man's Freewill.

 

[Bob S]

Shibolet said: ↑
Absolutely, under no circumstances man can achieve everlasting life. The attribute of eternal life belongs with HaShem only. If you read Genesis 3:22,23 the reason why Adam & Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden was to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. Every thing that has had a beginning, must have an end.

True - that is under the curse of sin.

The Gospel is about redemption and escape from that problem. Fixing the problem and returning mankind to paradise.

Lets get something straight. The reason Adam and Eve were banished from the garden is because of their disbelief. Their sin was caused because they disbelieved God just as satan was banished from Heaven for the same reason. Sinners will enter into eternity because we believe, believe that Jesus is enough. Jesus shed blood covers all of our sins. Anyone who mocks that fact is in disbelief and will be banned. I believe Adam and Eve throughout their lives learned the lesson, came to depend on their Creator and we will set down together with them in the glorious kingdom.

It is not what we do it is what Jesus has done for us. Our duty and love for God is just what John wrote in 1Jn 3 found in green below. This is the beauty of the new covenant. All else is a waste of time and effort.

 

[Shibolet]

Lets get something straight. The reason Adam and Eve were banished from the garden is because of their disbelief. Their sin was caused because they disbelieved God just as satan was banished from Heaven for the same reason. Sinners will enter into eternity because we believe, believe that Jesus is enough. Jesus shed blood covers all of our sins. Anyone who mocks that fact is in disbelief and will be banned. I believe Adam and Eve throughout their lives learned the lesson, came to depend on their Creator and we will set down together with them in the glorious kingdom.

It is not what we do it is what Jesus has done for us. Our duty and love for God is just what John wrote in 1Jn 3 found in green below. This is the beauty of the new covenant. All else is a waste of time and effort.

There was no fall in the Garden of Eden and... what! I did not know that Satan's dwelling place was in Heaven. Does it make any sense to you! So, God was living with Satan in Heaven! That's amazing and you guys show no objection to such a nonsense! Satan does not exist as a being but a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man. The "thing" is a concept, for heaven's sake!

Whatever you mean by what Jesus has done for us, be aware that he did against the words of the prophets of the Most High. They were inspired by God Himself to teach that no one can die for the sins of another. Ezekiel 18:3.
Since Jesus was a loyal Jew to God's Words, he did not do what you claim.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

There was no fall in the Garden of Eden and... what! I did not know that Satan's dwelling place was in Heaven. Does it make any sense to you! So, God was living with Satan in Heaven! That's amazing and you guys show no objection to such a nonsense! Satan does not exist as a being but a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man. The "thing" is a concept, for heaven's sake!

Whatever you mean by what Jesus has done for us, be aware that he did against the words of the prophets of the Most High. They were inspired by God Himself to teach that no one can die for the sins of another. Ezekiel 18:3.
Since Jesus was a loyal Jew to God's Words, he did not do what you claim.

Again, why are you coming into a Christian forum and disseminating your unchristian beliefs? Judaism had it's shot and blew it, time and time again until God prophesied in Daniel and then declared that there house was left unto them desolate.

 

[Shibolet]

Again, why are you coming into a Christian forum and disseminating your unchristian beliefs? Judaism had it's shot and blew it, time and time again until God prophesied in Daniel and then declared that there house was left unto them desolate.

For one single reason. Because you have decided to use a Jew in the case of Jesus to teach against his own Faith which was the Tanach and just happened to be the same as mine. If you either declared that Jesus was not a Jew or picked another as for instance Paul, I would cease bothering you for good.

 

[BobRyan]

Again, why are you coming into a Christian forum and disseminating your unchristian beliefs? Judaism had it's shot and blew it, time and time again until God prophesied in Daniel and then declared that there house was left unto them desolate.

Why wouldn't we want people to come here and have discussions with us - given that our mission is not "to ourselves" but "to the world" in Matt 28. Christ does not say in Matt 28 "Go into all the world - and keep to yourself... don't discuss Bible subjects with anyone outside your group".

 

[BobRyan]

For one single reason. Because you have decided to use a Jew in the case of Jesus to teach against his own Faith which was the Tanach

Well I know why we all agree that Jesus is a Jew and not a gentile - but he gave us the Matthew 28 command to go into all the world and make disciples of all nations - teaching them all that Jesus taught which included respect for scripture - the Word of God - even Peter said in 2 Peter 1:21 that the Holy Spirit inspired the prophets and that because of this - "they spoke from God"

and just happened to be the same as mine. If you either declared that Jesus was not a Jew or picked another as for instance Paul, I would cease bothering you for good.

Paul was a Jew trained in Jerusalem by Gameliel.
Jesus was a Jew.
The Christian church met in Jerusalem to settle rules/practice/dispute on all Christian topics in Acts 15.

This is beyond dispute.

 

[BobRyan]

Absolutely, under no circumstances man can achieve everlasting life. The attribute of eternal life belongs with HaShem only. If you read Genesis 3:22,23 the reason why Adam & Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden was to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. Every thing that has had a beginning, must have an end.

True - that is under the curse of sin.

The Gospel is about redemption and escape from that problem. Fixing the problem and returning mankind to paradise.

Revelation 2
5 Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent. 6 Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’

Revelation 21
Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
6 And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.
7 “And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.”

Lets get something straight. The reason Adam and Eve were banished from the garden is because of their disbelief. Their sin was caused because they disbelieved God just as satan was banished from Heaven for the same reason.

Actions result from our thoughts and motives. Sticking to the Word of God - even when Satan claims God did not mean what he said and that it would be legalism to stick with every detail of the Word of God -- is a sign of faith in the Word of God.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said -

the curse of sin.

The Gospel is about redemption and escape from that problem. Fixing the problem and returning mankind to paradise.

True - that is under the curse of sin.

The Gospel is about redemption and escape from that problem. Fixing the problem and returning mankind to paradise.

Revelation 2
5 Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent. 6 Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’

Revelation 21
Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
6 And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.
7 “And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.”

Revelation 2:5 Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent. 6 Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’
Revelation 21 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. ”

The gospel is about Replacement Theology. Every time a doctrine is taught from the NT which contradicts any thing in the Tanach, that's Replacement Theology. The only way to fix the problem caused by the curse of sin is obedience to God's Law. That's what Jesus himself said in Luke 16:29-31. "We must listen to "Moses" aka the Law.

Obedience to the LAW of God is included.

"The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Revelation 14:12
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Corinthians 7:19
"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31
"I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" under the NEW covenant - Hebrews 8:6-10
"it is not the hearers of the LAW that are just before God but the DOERS of the LAW will be justifIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge" Romans 2:13-16

"The GOSPEL was preached to Abraham" Galatians 3:8
"We have had the GOSPEL preached to us just as they also" Hebrews 4:2

However -- you cannot get your speeding ticket cancelled by not-speeding after you get your ticket.

Obedience does not cancel out the debt of sin - owed.

The Gospel provides the payment that the law demands for violation, it provides the new birth where the sinner is given a new heart - and wants to obey instead of live in rebellion, it provides for adoption into the family of God, and it provides the power to obey that includes righteousness by faith.

Obedience to a law he had been released from! (Romans 7:6) It makes no sense.

Because you are not reading Romans 3-8 to get the full context. In Romans 7 Paul argues that because of the Romans 6:23 that the wages of sin is "death" - then the Law convicts everyone as a sinner Romans 3:19-20 which means that everyone is under the sentence of death. And doomed by the righteous and just demands of the Law that defines sin AND also tells of the penalty for sin.

In Romans 7 Paul argues that we are chained to that certain death by the unbreakable eternal law of God. And that freedom comes when Jesus pays the debt of sin that the Law of God demands.

Colossians 2 says it this way
Col 2
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

According to the NAB translation, "Here are the saints of the Most High; here are they who keep the commandments of God and the Faith of Jesus." What was the Faith of Jesus? Judaism and the Tanach his gospel.(Rev.14:12)

Amen! preach it brother!

Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures (Tanakh) daily to SEE IF those things (spoken to them by the Apostle Paul) -- were so"

"The GOSPEL was preached to us just as it was to THEM also" Hebrews 4:2 as Paul points out about saints in the OT.

Now, what was the gospel of Paul? The NT. (Rom. 2:13-16) "My gospel," he said.

Paul said HIS Gospel - was the Gospel of God - of the OT.

Acts 26
4 “So then, all Jews know my manner of life from my youth up, which from the beginning was spent among my own nation and at Jerusalem; 5 since they have known about me for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that I lived as a Pharisee according to the strictest sect of our religion. 6 And now I am standing trial for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers; 7 the promise to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, as they earnestly serve God night and day. And for this hope, O King, I am being accused by Jews. 8 Why is it considered incredible among you people if God does raise the dead?

21 For this reason some Jews seized me in the temple and tried to put me to death. 22 So, having obtained help from God, I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, stating nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said was going to take place; 23 that the Christ was to suffer, and that by reason of His resurrection from the dead He would be the first to proclaim light both to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”

Which gospel, Paul's! You must be kidding! Regarding the speeding ticket, simply logical!

Indeed very logical. No amount of keeping the speed limit atones for the ticket you get for breaking it. The LAW can condemn.

And for obedience, one needs three things: Repentance, restoration and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19)

The Gospel provides repentance, restoration, and power to walk in obedience. The LAW by itself only condemns if one is a sinner -- which everyone is according to the Tanakh.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't know, but I will try to save them, regardless, in a last ditch effort at the end of my mortal life, if they are not already saved, a try for those I know and love, personally, since it makes more sense to be able to forgive someone you actually know, and then a try for everyone if I have enough time to get the thought out before I'm dead.

In John 20, I found:

Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

The first time I read this it kind of blew my mind, because the way I interpreted it by default the first time (while I was just on a roll reading the chapter) was that if you have the Holy Spirit in you, and you genuinely forgive someone, then they are forgiven, like, period.

It stunned me so much I just stared at it for a while, second-guessing my interpretation over and over. I asked my pastor about it but he never responded to my question, even after saying he would within a couple days (but several days passed and no response), which seemed weird. I figured something as possibly significant as this would have already been debated very, very heavily (and maybe it has and I just have not found those debates yet).

But anyway it gave me a massive surge of hope. I am going to try my very best to follow Jesus' teachings, and then when it is my time to die, so I will have made it as far as I can in regards to being molded into what God wants me to be, it will be my dying prayer to declare my forgiveness of others, God will know exactly who I have in my mind, just in case my initial interpretation of that verse was not wrong.

I mean I was very stunned, second-guessing over and over, because at first it was just sort of startling, like the thought seemed blasphemous and since it is so emphasized in the Gospels that the only way is through Jesus, but then Jesus right there like bam, He gives them the Holy Spirit and then tells them they have the power to forgive-forgive people, as though it is as a result of receiving the Holy Spirit.

And in John 7 it is explained:

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

So we can definitely receive the Holy Spirit.

I'm just saying this all makes me feel extremely hopeful and the closest thing to "joyful" that I think I have ever felt in my life. It syncs up incredibly well with the rest of Jesus' teachings focusing on not condemning others but instead for humans to learn how to love, turn the other cheek (not seek vengeance) and to forgive, with one another.

I hope God will forgive me if the way I understood the scriptures was wrong and if I came across as blasphemous on accident, but if there is any chance I can save my non-believing loved ones, then I'm going for it.

1 Corinthians 5 -- that is followed by 2 Corinthians 7 is a good example in the Bible of what you might be talking about.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

For one single reason. Because you have decided to use a Jew in the case of Jesus to teach against his own Faith which was the Tanach and just happened to be the same as mine. If you either declared that Jesus was not a Jew or picked another as for instance Paul, I would cease bothering you for good.

So you're going to take on the approximately 2 billions Christians in you quest to save the honour of your Rabbi's traditions?
Everyone needs a hobby, I guess...