Do Mormons go to Hell?

[Wrigley]

However, he could do so with Biblical endorsement.

He had no such thing.

 

[MormonFriend]

He had no such thing.

1THEREFORE thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

(Romans2:1)

You don't see the connection of a judging person being judgemental of others (in certain circumstances) because he himself is throwing out accusations that he hopes may shadow his own failings?

I cannot speak for TOm when I said: "However, he could do so with Biblical endorsement." I am just pointing out that this concept is taught in the Bible.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

However, he could do so with Biblical endorsement.

Oh for heaven's sake, give me a break...this is getting rediculous.
Grace

 

[happyinhisgrace]

This Psalm refers to ordinary men, judges, who were called “Elohim,” and the majority of ECF who speak of deification quote this Psalm. Note that the Jewish scholars never interpreted this Psalm to mean deification or that men can becomes gods.

Absolutly!!!!! Del Alter, you got that right. The jewish people believed and still believe in one and only one God. The whole reason the people wanted to kill Christ was because he claimed the same nature and attributes as God and the jewish people believed in only one God EVER and thought it blastfamy for Jesus to claim these atributes that only the one true God could possess. By everything Jesus said about himself, he was claiming to be the very nature of God and the jews never believed in more than one God, never. The first Christians were jews and they didn't believe in more than one God. Context people, context!

Del Alter, keep up the good work, your posts are very right on with God's word.

God Bless-Grace

 

[Der Alte]

Utter nonsense!

Complete rubbish!

Did you expect anything else?

One can always hope.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

I pasted an article to the thread on how the KJV of the Bible clearly teaches that there is only one God and that God (Elohiem) and Jehovah (Jesus) are the same God, not 2 seperate gods. It is a very informative article and really puts the usage of the names of God into understanding...if anyone wants to read it, it is posted in three parts at this link.

http://www.christian-forums.com/t84640

God Bless,
Grace

 

[Der Alte]

From the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America:

Theosis describes the spiritual pilgrimage in which each person becomes ever more perfect, ever more holy, ever more united with God. It is not a static relationship, nor does it take place only after death. On the contrary, theosis is a movement of love toward God which begins for each Christian with the rites of Baptism and which continues throughout this life, as well as the life which is to come. Salvation means liberation from sin, death, and evil. Redemption means our repossession by God. In Orthodoxy, both salvation and redemption are within the context of theosis. This rich vision of Christian life was expressed well by Saint Peter when he wrote in the early pages of his second Epistle that we are called "to become partakers of the Divine nature." It was also affirmed by Saint Basil the Great when he described man as the creature who has received the order to become a god.[/font]

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7114.asp

Note the last phrase, “to become god.” LDS deification is a unification with God the Father, too.

I have noted the last phrase and I have also noted the very next paragraph. What we have here is a blatant, dishonest, partial quote deliberately ignoring the context of the statement in order to try to prop up the LDS heresy that men can become gods. Do you truly not understand this, TOm?

This rich vision of Christian life was expressed well by Saint Peter when he wrote in the early pages of his second Epistle that we are called "to become partakers of the Divine nature." It was also affirmed by Saint Basil the Great when he described man as the creature who has received the order to become a god.

These are certainly bold affirmations which must be properly understood. The Orthodox Church understands theosis as a union with the energies of God and not with the essence of God which always remains hidden and unknown. However, the experience of the Church testifies that this is a true union with God. It is also one which is not pantheistic, because in this union the divine and the human retain their unique characteristics. In this sense, Orthodoxy believes that human life reaches its fulfillment only when it becomes divine.​

EO does not teach that men can or do become gods. Basil's view is orthodox as defined by the paragraph which follows. "Partakers of the divine nature." As I said elsewhere, I partake of water but I am not a river, lake, or ocean. I partake of meat but I am not a cow.

 

[TOmNossor]

First, let me reiterate that it is wholly inappropriate for you to question my honesty as you have done. I believe one of two things caused this and you may provide third if I am wrong. One possible cause (which I do not think is most likely) is that your questioning of my honesty speaks volumes about your honesty and integrity.

LOL, you just did the same thing that you told him he had no right to do.

Grace

Happyinhisgrace,

You noticed that! Terrific! I thought it would be obvious that this was intentional and well understood when I used the identical phrase Der Alter used, “speaks volumes about your honesty and integrity.” Of course we might note that I unlike Der Alter was very clear that I did not actually think it was him attempted to be dishonest that resulted in his mischaracterization of me.
BTW, I didn't actually have the Biblical quote in mind, but that is interesting too.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

Another out-of-context quote from “Mormons-Я-Us.” I will shortly be linking to my previous posts concerning this endless laundry list of partial, out-of-context, quotes. Most people who cut and paste them have never read the primary sources.



Observe that Jerome quotes Psalm 82 to document his statement. When read in context this Psalm is addressed to corrupt human judges who, “judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked, [they] know not, neither will they understand, they walk on in darkness:” Somebody please explain to me how men who have become perfected, and progressed and were made gods, by the Father, (according to LDS) can be corrupt? If the subject of this Psalm are actually gods, how can God demote them and cause them to die like ordinary men?

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; [Elohim] and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
​

This Psalm refers to ordinary men, judges, who were called “Elohim,” and the majority of ECF who speak of deification quote this Psalm. Note that the Jewish scholars never interpreted this Psalm to mean deification or that men can becomes gods.

John Gill, Exposition of the Whole Bible,-Psa 82:1 - God standeth in the congregation of the mighty,.... The Syriac version renders it, "in the congregation of angels"; they are mighty, and excel in strength, and there is a large company of them, even an innumerable one, and who surround the throne of the Majesty on high. Christ, who is God over all, was among those on Mount Sinai, and when he ascended to heaven; and with these he will descend when he comes a second time, Psa_68:17. The Targum [Aramaic translation during the Babylonian captivity. DA] interprets it of the righteous thus,

"God, whose majesty (or Shechinah) dwells in the congregation of the righteous that are strong in the law.'' . . .

he judgeth among the gods: which the Syriac version renders "angels" again; and so Aben Ezra interprets it of them, who are so called, Psa_8:5, but rather civil magistrates are meant, the rulers and judges of the people, who go by this name of "elohim", or gods, in Exo_21:6, and are so called because they are the powers ordained of God, are representatives of him, are his vicegerents and deputies under him; should act in his name, according to his law, and for his glory, and are clothed with great power and authority from and under him; and therefore are before styled the "mighty".

reign, and princes decree justice; by whom princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth; and to whom they are all accountable, and will be themselves judged by him another day, Pro_8:15 so the Targum,

"in the midst of the judges of truth he judges.''

(a)בעדת אל "in congregatione Dei", Pagninus, Cocceius, Gejerus, Michaelis; so Vatablus, Junius & Tremellius, Piscator, Ainsworth.

Psa 82:6 - I have said, ye are gods,. . .The Targum is, "I said, as angels are ye accounted"; and so judges and civil magistrates had need to be as angels, and to have the wisdom of them; see 2Sa_14:20. Jarchi interprets it of angels, but magistrates are undoubtedly meant:

and all of you are children of the most High; the Targum here again renders it,

"the angels of the most High:''​

​

As for the other ECF quotes, here are posts where I have discussed many of these that are quoted here, partially and out-of-context. Very, very few if any ECF in the 1st three centuries of the church wrote of men becoming gods, without qualification. The teaching of the LDS church on this is unBiblical, unhistorical heresy.

http://www.christianforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1308395&postcount=117

http://www.christianforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1284684&postcount=97

http://www.christianforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1281414&postcount=93

Der Alter:

Another out-of-context quote from “Mormons-Я-Us.” I will shortly be linking to my previous posts concerning this endless laundry list of partial, out-of-context, quotes. Most people who cut and paste them have never read the primary sources.



TOm:

If you missed it, this is actually a Catholic-R-Us quote as are virtually all the quotes that I have provided. We have already establish that I have sporadically read the primary sources. If the dark shadows you cast upon my statements really amount to much, then 99.5+% of the quotes posted said by past LDS leaders should have equally dark shadows cast upon them.

And as I have said before, with out using pointless words such as “Rubbish,” “Nonsense,” and other non-discussion promoting polemics, it is the opinion of the majority of patristic scholars that the ECF did speak of deification.



Der Alter:

Observe that Jerome quotes Psalm 82 to document his statement. When read in context this Psalm is addressed to corrupt human judges who, “judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked, [they] know not, neither will they understand, they walk on in darkness:” Somebody please explain to me how men who have become perfected, and progressed and were made gods, by the Father, (according to LDS) can be corrupt? If the subject of this Psalm are actually gods, how can God demote them and cause them to die like ordinary men?



TOm:

You are not really serious are you? Are you questioning Jerome’s understanding of scripture? Or are you suggesting that Jerome is saying that we are made unjust judges by grace?

Me thinks you place to much emphasis on this interpretation of Psalms 82. Every time you see the term “gods” you view this as an easy way to “correct” our understanding. Did you personally come up with this or is if from “Protestants R Us?”



Der Alter:

Very, very few if any ECF in the 1st three centuries of the church wrote of men becoming gods, without qualification.



TOm:

If I am correct, I do not need ellipsis before or after your full sentence quote.

First, I am thrilled that you now acknowledge that it is at least possible that a few ECF wrote of men becoming gods, without qualification. I personally do not write of men becoming gods without qualification, because I always think it prudent to acknowledge that a deified human will never be equal with God and that it is through God and a uniting that men become gods.

I will also of course say that I read the above statement to mean that Der Alter has found some ECF quotes that he cannot dismiss by making gods=judges, pointing to other passages by the same author that Der Alter feels are inconsistent with deification, or some other dismissing tactic. I state this as my opinion however. I believe that quite a number of ECF speak of deification and it is Der Alter that does not see it.



Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

Joseph Smith embraced many things that the people in his area rejected. Peep stones, treasure hunting, divination etc. What is your point? Are you saying that because he embaced pagan beliefs and others didn't, that makes him somehow more reliable?

Many scholors also say there is no God. Many scholors say there is only one God. Many scholors say that DNA proves that native americans came from Eastern Asia and not at all from the middle east. Many scholors say that evolution is the only answer to how man came into being. Do you also believe all of these things because many scholors say it is so?

I believe the Bible, the Word of God. If what an says does not match up with what the word of God teaches, then it is of no use to me. I have made the choice to follow God, not man.

God Bless-
Grace

Happyinhisgrace:

Joseph Smith embraced many things that the people in his area rejected. Peep stones, treasure hunting, divination etc. What is your point? Are you saying that because he embaced pagan beliefs and others didn't, that makes him somehow more reliable?



TOm:

Actually, if he at some point believed in the things you listed, it would be consistent with the culture in which he lived. So if that where my point I would be mistaken.

I said,

“But despite the environment in which Joseph Smith lived where deification was rejected, Joseph Smith claimed not that pagans believe in deification, but that the early church did.”

So my point is that he had no access to documents largely held by the Vatican. He sight unseen declared that the early church believed in deification and he was restoring this belief. Now that the ECF can be studied we see that his claim is true. It makes him reliable because he did not have an earthly way to come to this truth. This becomes another one of a long list of highly unlikely coincidences or an indication of the truth of what Joseph Smith claimed. Get it now?



Happyinhisgrace:

Many scholors also say there is no God. Many scholors say there is only one God. Many scholors say that DNA proves that native americans came from Eastern Asia and not at all from the middle east. Many scholors say that evolution is the only answer to how man came into being. Do you also believe all of these things because many scholors say it is so?



TOm:

Yes, but I am pointing to patristic scholars who see deification in the ECF. Der Alter is well read and intelligent, but he is at odds with the consensus among patristic scholars. I have posted a great many ECF quotes that show deification. Der Alter seems willing to assign the term judges to any use of the word “gods” he is uncomfortable with. I point to scholars to back up what the words clearly say. I agree that scholars are not infallible. But when Der Alter says that I have not read every word of the ECFs, he is actually correct. I do recognize that many patristic scholars have done this and still come to the same conclusion that I do.



Happyinhisgrace:

I believe the Bible, the Word of God. If what an says does not match up with what the word of God teaches, then it is of no use to me. I have made the choice to follow God, not man.



TOm:

I believe in the Bible too, but the Bible speaks of deification.



Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

You don't see the connection of a judging person being judgemental of others (in certain circumstances) because he himself is throwing out accusations that he hopes may shadow his own failings?

I cannot speak for TOm when I said: "However, he could do so with Biblical endorsement." I am just pointing out that this concept is taught in the Bible.

This is a good point. I wish I was so clever. I in truth did not have that in mind when I posted what I did about Der Alter.



What I did do was use this phrase, “…speaks volumes about your honesty and integrity….” This was a direct parotting of Der Alter when he said,

Der Alter (post #486):

…speaks volumes of your honesty and integrity….



TOm:

And I also included the disclaimer before my statement, “(which I do not think is most likely).”

So I was not even suggesting that I thought he was being dishonest or lacking of integrity.

Anyway, I wish I was so smart to have known I was acting as the Bible would wish for me to do. It is written on my heart so perhaps I did.



Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

This Psalm refers to ordinary men, judges, who were called “Elohim,” and the majority of ECF who speak of deification quote this Psalm. Note that the Jewish scholars never interpreted this Psalm to mean deification or that men can becomes gods.

Absolutly!!!!! Del Alter, you got that right. The jewish people believed and still believe in one and only one God. The whole reason the people wanted to kill Christ was because he claimed the same nature and attributes as God and the jewish people believed in only one God EVER and thought it blastfamy for Jesus to claim these atributes that only the one true God could possess. By everything Jesus said about himself, he was claiming to be the very nature of God and the jews never believed in more than one God, never. The first Christians were jews and they didn't believe in more than one God. Context people, context!

Del Alter, keep up the good work, your posts are very right on with God's word.

God Bless-Grace

Happyinhisgrace,

The problem with this gods=judges is that it is untenable. Jerome did not mean this. His words to not support this. You yourself tried to change his words by making gods=God’s, but that was untenable.

I recognize that you do not like the interpretation of God’s word that LDS, Catholics, EO, and the ECF present, but it is at least as valid as yours.

Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

I have noted the last phrase and I have also noted the very next paragraph. What we have here is a blatant, dishonest, partial quote deliberately ignoring the context of the statement in order to try to prop up the LDS heresy that men can become gods. Do you truly not understand this, TOm?

This rich vision of Christian life was expressed well by Saint Peter when he wrote in the early pages of his second Epistle that we are called "to become partakers of the Divine nature." It was also affirmed by Saint Basil the Great when he described man as the creature who has received the order to become a god.



These are certainly bold affirmations which must be properly understood. The Orthodox Church understands theosis as a union with the energies of God and not with the essence of God which always remains hidden and unknown. However, the experience of the Church testifies that this is a true union with God. It is also one which is not pantheistic, because in this union the divine and the human retain their unique characteristics. In this sense, Orthodoxy believes that human life reaches its fulfillment only when it becomes divine.

​

EO does not teach that men can or do become gods. Basil's view is orthodox as defined by the paragraph which follows. "Partakers of the divine nature." As I said elsewhere, I partake of water but I am not a river, lake, or ocean. I partake of meat but I am not a cow.

Der Alter,


I will again ask that you do not question my honesty. I assure you that while I will show you that your bold assertions are baseless and inappropriate, if ever I were to err in misquoting others it would be a mistake not a deception. You are very quick to suggest that I am dishonest. I am trying not to draw unfavorable and potentially unwarranted conclusions as I explain why what you say is wholly incorrect.



Der Alter:

[Quotes my quote of Greek Orthodox… Then PARTIALLY quotes this, TOm (quoted by Der Alter)]:

Note the last phrase, “to become god.” LDS deification is a unification with God the Father, too



[Der Alter goes on to say]:

I have noted the last phrase and I have also noted the very next paragraph. What we have here is a blatant, dishonest, partial quote deliberately ignoring the context of the statement in order to try to prop up the LDS heresy that men can become gods. Do you truly not understand this, TOm?

This rich vision of Christian life was expressed well by Saint Peter when he wrote in the early pages of his second Epistle that we are called "to become partakers of the Divine nature." It was also affirmed by Saint Basil the Great when he described man as the creature who has received the order to become a god.

These are certainly bold affirmations which must be properly understood. The Orthodox Church understands theosis as a union with the energies of God and not with the essence of God which always remains hidden and unknown. However, the experience of the Church testifies that this is a true union with God. It is also one which is not pantheistic, because in this union the divine and the human retain their unique characteristics. In this sense, Orthodoxy believes that human life reaches its fulfillment only when it becomes divine.



TOm:

You are mighty quick to call foul.

You of course partially quoted me. Here are the words you quoted and my continuation, TOm (post #508):



“Note the last phrase, “to become god.” LDS deification is a unification with God the Father, too. I have thought of another way to highlight a difference that I have not in the past. LDS do not believe that God created ex nihilo. For men to become the creator ex nihilo is impossible for EO, Catholics, and post Justinian Christians (and LDS/pre-Justinian Christians for that matter! For the discussion where I proved that St. Justin Martyr’s and Hermogenes’ believed in eternal matter see this thread (ok, perhaps Der Alter still disagrees): http://christianforums.com/t2215&page=7). It is logically impossible to achieve this aspect of God (if it is a true aspect of God). Since LDS do not assign this to God, there is a greater communion that is possible. No tradition points to an equality, but the LDS do not believe that God created ex nihilo so when we say that we become gods, we do not mean we become one who creates ex nihilo. God will always be God above us. It is only through him that we can become gods.”



TOm (now):

I clearly acknowledge both the “unification” aspect of the EO belief, and the different “natures” clearly taught by the next paragraph. I suggested that LDS do not ever call man equal to God, but we do not demand a different nature. And surely you are aware that I have always demanded that LDS deification is not pantheistic or polytheistic. Did you really not recognize this? I certainly did. I was not trying to hide anything. In fact latter on in the post regarding another EO quote I said the following,



TOm (post #508):

This source goes on to maintain that men will always be created creatures and never be uncreated. I concede that the majority of Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians believe that man will never become uncreated, but this is not universally held. Nor does it really matter, because I have always acknowledge that LDS deification does not involve becoming uncreated at all since we are fallen but homoousian with God already.



TOm (now):

If I where really so into showing [EO Theosis] = [LDS Deification] that I was willing to deceive, surely I would not have included the above statement.



Your polemic response to me does not show that the statement “become gods” is unorthodox within the EO religion. I have never suggested equality in the two doctrines nor do I now. You have failed to show that EOs do not believe in deification.



I certainly believe you should apologize for this,

Der Alter:

I have noted the last phrase and I have also noted the very next paragraph. What we have here is a blatant, dishonest, partial quote deliberately ignoring the context of the statement in order to try to prop up the LDS heresy that men can become gods. Do you truly not understand this, TOm?



TOm:

Even with the question you attach on the end, I believe the above to be inappropriate and in violation of the rules of the board (I could be wrong). I would ask that you both apologize and edit your post.

I really do not get upset based on message board interaction. I will again ask as I have asked you before, do you really think that your methods of interacting with those you disagree with bolsters your position. I personally do not think your methods help at all. I hope you will reconsider.



Charity, TOm

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Happyinhisgrace,

You noticed that! Terrific! I thought it would be obvious that this was intentional and well understood when I used the identical phrase Der Alter used, “speaks volumes about your honesty and integrity.” Of course we might note that I unlike Der Alter was very clear that I did not actually think it was him attempted to be dishonest that resulted in his mischaracterization of me.
BTW, I didn't actually have the Biblical quote in mind, but that is interesting too.
Charity, TOm

Oh, so you planned it that way? RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Happyinhisgrace,

The problem with this gods=judges is that it is untenable. Jerome did not mean this. His words to not support this. You yourself tried to change his words by making gods=God’s, but that was untenable.

I recognize that you do not like the interpretation of God’s word that LDS, Catholics, EO, and the ECF present, but it is at least as valid as yours.

Charity, TOm

And still you fail to realize and acknowlege that catholics did not teach, nor do they now teach that man can becomes Gods. Your cut and paste quotes did not prove the point you were trying to make. Del Arter pointed this out using very self explanitory explanations and yet you apperenlty did not read that post. Also, did you by any chance read the post where I showed the link that explains how the word "god" was translated into the Bible? I guess not or this discussion would be done away with.

God Bless-
Grace

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Happyinhisgrace,

The problem with this gods=judges is that it is untenable. Jerome did not mean this. His words to not support this. You yourself tried to change his words by making gods=God’s, but that was untenable.

I recognize that you do not like the interpretation of God’s word that LDS, Catholics, EO, and the ECF present, but it is at least as valid as yours.

Charity, TOm

The problem with this gods=judges is that it is untenable. Jerome did not mean this. His words to not support this. You yourself tried to change his words by making gods=God’s, but that was untenable.

Wrong. Go back and re-read my posts and also read the link I posted on the translation of the word "Elohiem" (God) in the Bible. It clearly states my position.

God Bless,
Grace

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Am I the only one that has noticed that a few of the LDS on this thread, and on another thread on this forum, rather than deal with the topic have navigated off into "correct the grammer and quotes" land? To bad for those folks that some of us are not easily swayed into distraction.

Now, can we get back to the topic or shall we continue to discuss things that are of no importance? I choose "topic".

God Bless-
Grace

 

[skylark1]

Is it really the LDS position that this Psalm is speaking of actual gods? I do not see how it could possibly be referring to actual gods, rather than men who are judges. This may have been pointed out already, but how can a man who has progressed to godhood die like a man? Also these "gods" appear to be corrupt beings, not perfected beings.

Psalm 82
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
​

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Happyinhisgrace:

Joseph Smith embraced many things that the people in his area rejected. Peep stones, treasure hunting, divination etc. What is your point? Are you saying that because he embaced pagan beliefs and others didn't, that makes him somehow more reliable?



TOm:

Actually, if he at some point believed in the things you listed, it would be consistent with the culture in which he lived. So if that where my point I would be mistaken.

I said,

“But despite the environment in which Joseph Smith lived where deification was rejected, Joseph Smith claimed not that pagans believe in deification, but that the early church did.”

So my point is that he had no access to documents largely held by the Vatican. He sight unseen declared that the early church believed in deification and he was restoring this belief. Now that the ECF can be studied we see that his claim is true. It makes him reliable because he did not have an earthly way to come to this truth. This becomes another one of a long list of highly unlikely coincidences or an indication of the truth of what Joseph Smith claimed. Get it now?



Happyinhisgrace:

Many scholors also say there is no God. Many scholors say there is only one God. Many scholors say that DNA proves that native americans came from Eastern Asia and not at all from the middle east. Many scholors say that evolution is the only answer to how man came into being. Do you also believe all of these things because many scholors say it is so?



TOm:

Yes, but I am pointing to patristic scholars who see deification in the ECF. Der Alter is well read and intelligent, but he is at odds with the consensus among patristic scholars. I have posted a great many ECF quotes that show deification. Der Alter seems willing to assign the term judges to any use of the word “gods” he is uncomfortable with. I point to scholars to back up what the words clearly say. I agree that scholars are not infallible. But when Der Alter says that I have not read every word of the ECFs, he is actually correct. I do recognize that many patristic scholars have done this and still come to the same conclusion that I do.



Happyinhisgrace:

I believe the Bible, the Word of God. If what an says does not match up with what the word of God teaches, then it is of no use to me. I have made the choice to follow God, not man.



TOm:

I believe in the Bible too, but the Bible speaks of deification.



Charity, TOm

 

[happyinhisgrace]

sorry, I hit reply before I responded to the last quote of posts. It is just one of those days...lol

God Bless-
Grace