Do Mormons go to Hell?

[happyinhisgrace]

It is the reformists who have blinded you from the truth. No where in the Bible does it speak against deification. The Apostles taught the doctrine to the Early Church. The Catholic Church forgot it for a period of time, but they are awakening too. You are the one who cannot see the truth.

Ok, I just called our good family friend, Manny Lucero, who has been a priest in the catholic church since the age of 26 (he is now almost 80). He studied for his priesthood at the Vatican. I recieted to him exactly what you claimed TomNosser, on your posts and then asked him for the catholic view of it (as I am not catholic and wanted to hear what a learned catholic priesthood member had to say on the subject). He said that the catholic chuch has NEVER taught that man can become a god, only that man can acquire SOME godlike atributes throughout his life-time, such as charity, kindness, love, good thought, and then when reserrected can obtain a perfected body like that of Christ's, one that is inncoruptable but he made it clear in our conversation that the Catholic church has never taught, nor believed that man can become a god and has always believe in and taught of only one triune God. He said that the catholic church believes that to claim otherwise is complete "harresy" (that is the exact word he used).

So this is the question...do I believe someone who isn't even catholic and can't back up their claims regarding the nature of God from the Bible or do I believe someone who is not only catholic but a priest who studied at the Vatican when it comes to what exactly the catholic church did teach and does teach and can back up their beliefs of the nature of God from the Bible. It's a no brainer.

God Bless-
Grace

 

[Phoenix]

And actually, in this particular instance I said that LDS beliefs do not contradict the Bible. You have yet to show where the Bible says that men cannot become gods.

Could one of those who hold the mormon faith explain what becoming a god would mean or point to an article or link ?

Thanks

 

[calgal]

Thanks for the welcome everyone. I've seen a lot of really good points made, all of which I agree with. My question is for calgal and grace...what opened your eyes? Maybe this has been mentioned already but my browser is slow and I didn't have the patience to go through each page, just did the first and the last page. Again thanks for the welcome...I think I'm gonna like it here.
YSIC...
SavedByGrace

The easy answer is God's providence. I had questions that I simply put aside (did not have time or the inclination to deal with them without using some trite Mormon catchphrase). I started a new job out of town and had a really long (90 minutes each way! ) commute and was presented with tons of time to THINK. I began to realize something was not right but could not quite articulate it at the time. The 3 months I commuted were absolutely life changing and that was the beginning of the end of my Mormon experience. After leaving, friends told me "Your problem is that you think too much!"

Glad to see you here and I suggest staying in prayer and in the Word of God. The best thing to do for Mormons is pray for them always.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Grace:

Been there, done that, had the funny undies and temple sash, veil, stupid green apron and veil to prove it. Still have the temple stuff for no really good reason (it may be a costume someday). Glad to see you growing in Christ.
YSIC,
Calgal

Thank you so much calgal...At least the womens temple clothing just make them look like glowing white peasants, the men's clothing makes them look like the pillsbury dough boy or as I have heard it called "the butcher, the baker, the candle stick maker"...

sits back and waits for the retaliation from the peasant and pillsbury dough boy loving people on the forum

Calgal...I would love to hear your story about coming out of the lds church, would you be willing to share it on the forum? and if not, would you be willing to send it to me IM or email?

God Bless-
Grace

 

[calgal]

Thank you so much calgal...At least the womens temple clothing just make them look like glowing white peasants, the men's clothing makes them look like the pillsbury dough boy or as I have heard it called "the butcher, the baker, the candle stick maker"...

sits back and waits for the retaliation from the peasant and pillsbury dough boy loving people on the forum

Calgal...I would love to hear your story about coming out of the lds church, would you be willing to share it on the forum? and if not, would you be willing to send it to me IM or email?

God Bless-
Grace

LOL! The peasant comparison is perfect. I cannot look at Chef Boy Ardee cans without laughing nowdays either! I would be happy to share my story (not really awake tonight but will do so in a day or 2).

Calgal

 

[Der Alte]

the meaning of the Bible by blatantly ignoring whole books knew that the Bible spoke of men becoming gods. It is you who cannot see the plain truths in the Bible.

2 Cor 8:9 was understood by the ECF to speak of deification.

Proof? And you and I both know that the very few ECF who mention deification have a completely different definition than LDS. There is not one ECF who wrote that men could become gods.

Every piece of writing which came out of the early centuries was not scripture. Prove that any God inspired scripture was omitted from the Bible

2 Cor 8:9 is understood by LDS, Catholics, and EOs. To speak of deification.

I have already proved to you that the Eastern Orthodox has a completely different understanding of deification, than LDS. It does not mean men becoming gods! The fact that you continue to post this false misrepresentation after having been corrected speaks volumes of your honesty and integrity.

2 Pet 1:3-4 was understood by the ECF to speak of deification

2 Pet 1:3-4 is understood by LDS, Catholics, and EOs to speak of deification.

Same response as above neither the ECF nor EO ever state that deification means men becoming gods.

I read the Bible with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I read the Bible with the logic of men. So do Catholics so do EOs. So did pre-reformist Christians.

I would suggest that you also read the Bible with honesty and integrity.

It is the reformists who have blinded you from the truth. No where in the Bible does it speak against deification. The Apostles taught the doctrine to the Early Church. The Catholic Church forgot it for a period of time, but they are awakening too. You are the one who cannot see the truth.

It is the LDS heretical leaders who have blinded you from the truth. “No where in the Bible does it speak against deification.” You cannot prove a negative. There is not one single verse of scripture which clearly states that men may become gods. There are in fact several scriptures which state there there is only one God, there is no God before Him, no God beside Him, and no God after Him. He does not know any other gods.

There is not one single verse in the N.T. which states that men may become gods. It is you and others like you who cannot see the truth, you repeatedly misuse, misquote, and misrepresent sources trying to prove your heretical doctrines.

And actually, in this particular instance I said that LDS beliefs do not contradict the Bible.

Still can’t prove a negative. You have yet to show where the Bible says that men can become gods.

”You have yet to show where the Bible says that men cannot become gods.This statement is a direct contradiction of scripture.

 

[TOmNossor]

[/size][/font]
If men could become gods, it would contradict this verse:

Isaiah 43

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

​

I would say that two things are important here. First, Isaiah is talking about idols. He is not talking about men who are God’s children. This is from John Gill’s commentary:



before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me;
intimating that idols were formed by the hands of men, and yet none of these were formed before him, and therefore could make no pretensions to deity, or to an equality with him; nor should any be formed afterwards, that could be put in competition with him. In short, the sense is, there is no other god beside him; as the Targum, Septuagint, and Arabic versions render it.



TOm;

All men are through God, none stand alone.



In another sense:

Other scriptural verses do point to uniting with God and maintaining a oneness.

Jesus is God, Heavenly Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. There are not three Gods. Deified men are united with God in a oneness. Catholic deification is quite clearly this uniting. My view of LDS deification requires a uniting and oneness too. I embrace the possibility of the deified humans growing in love somehow being unable to contain this love, resulting in growth I do not currently understand. But there will always be a uniting with God the Father.



Charity, TOm

 

[Toms777]

Toms777,

Every Christian who existed before the Reformist distorted the meaning of the Bible by blatantly ignoring whole books knew that the Bible spoke of men becoming gods. It is you who cannot see the plain truths in the Bible.

I disagree, but men think in any case is not relevant - what matters is what God has to say. Opinions are opiniions - God words is clear and neither reference even addresses the topic of deification. Why you even mention these is beyond me.

 

[TOmNossor]

Proof? And you and I both know that the very few ECF who mention deification have a completely different definition than LDS. There is not one ECF who wrote that men could becomes gods.

Every piece of writing which came out of the early centuries was not scripture. Prove that any God inspired scripture ws omitted from the Bible



I have already proved to you that the Eastern Orthodox has a completely different understanding of deification, than LDS. It does not mean men becoming gods! The fact that you continue to post this false misrepresentation after having been corrected speaks volumes of your honesty and integrity.



Same response as above neither the ECF nor EO ever state t6hat deification means becoming gods.



I would suggest that you also read the Bible with honesty and integrity.



It is the LDS heretical leaders who have blinded you from the truth. “No where in the Bible does it speak against deification.” You cannot prove a negative. There is not one single verse of scripture which clearly states that men may become gods. There are in fact several scriptures which state there there is only one God, there is no God before Him, no God beside Him, and no God after Him. He does not know any other gods.

There is not one single verse in the N.T. which states that men may become gods. It is you and others like you who cannot see the truth you repeatedly misuse, misquote, and misrepresent sources trying to prove your heretical doctrines.



Still can’t prove a negative. You have yet to show where the Bible says that men can become gods.

”You have yet to show where the Bible says that men cannot become gods.This statement is a direct contradiction of scripture.

Der Alter,



You have proven nothing of the sort. I have told you that you stand alone not seeing the deification in the ECF. I have stated that there is only one required difference LDS deification and Catholic, EO, and EarlyChurch deification. That is that to be deified non-LDS requires a change of nature. To be deified LDS requires that through God we partake of the divine nature and become perfected though him, but do not have to become uncreated.

I do not appreciate you suggesting that I have been dishonest. The truth is that I am less impressed with your arguments than you are.



Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

For Der Alter:



Catholics (quoting the ECF Irenaeus) in the CCC #460

460 The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":"For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God." "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God." "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."



Here we have three important things. Modern Catholics believe in men becoming God. The Biblical verse “partaker of the divine nature” is used to support this belief, it is a deification scripture to Catholics as I said. And lastly, Irenaeus is quoted at the end of #460 showing that the ECF taught deification.



I have never said that Catholic, LDS, and EO deification are identical. I have only said that all believe that men can become gods.



Let me quote Father Vajda. This is from a introduction to his masters thesis he wrote in 1998. I must admit that like Cardinal Newman who left the Church of England as a result of his study of Christian history, Father Vajda has left the Catholic Church, but it took him 5 more years to come to terms with the rest of LDS theology. He was baptized in 2003.



"The underlying motive for this thesis," Father Vajda states in the new introduction that he has written for FARMS, "was my . . . perception that one connection between the Catholic Church and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints lay in the fact that those who sought to deny the label 'Christian' to the LDS Church were, more often than not, the very same people who would then turn around and attempt to deny this label to the Catholic Church with the same reasons often being used in both instances to justify the conclusion. And since it was easy enough for me to see through the many half-truths, misunderstandings, and even outright errors alleged against the Catholic Church, I suspected that similar critiques leveled against the LDSChurch as to its 'non-Christian' status were equally flawed." Accordingly, he decided that he "wanted to reach beyond the rhetoric and discover for [himself] what the LDS Church actually taught," in the hope of encouraging responsible and accurate interfaith dialogue.


"I firmly maintain," writes Father Vajda, "that the Latter-day Saints are owed a debt of gratitude by other Christians because the Saints remind us all of our divine potential. The historic Christian doctrine of salvation theosis, i.e., human divinization for too long has been forgotten by too many Christians." "Members of the LDSChurch," he promises near the beginning of his thesis, "will discover unmistakable evidence that their fundamental belief about human salvation and potential is not unique nor a Mormon invention. Latin Catholics and Protestants will learn of a doctrine of salvation that, while relatively foreign to their ears, is nevertheless part of the heritage of the undivided Catholic Church of the first millennium. Members of Eastern Orthodox and EasternCatholicChurches will discover on the American continent an amazing parallel to their own belief that salvation in Christ involves our becoming 'partakers of the divine nature.'"



Long before Vajda become a LDS, LDS scholars commented on his essay. They claimed that while he highlighted two differences in the deification taught by LDS and the ECF, there really was but one. That difference being what I already mentioned and that is that LDS believe that we are already homoousian and do not have to change (or not change) nature to become gods.



So, I believe that many LDS are somewhat undecided on what deification means beyond the uniting with the Trinity. But, I will not deny that a LDS can speak of becoming a god, having spirit children, and planning for their divine education; and not be accused of being outside of orthodoxy. An ECF, a Catholic, and an Eastern Orthodox Christian would never say this (nor would an ECF after 200AD and Nicea with a little 566AD Origin heresy thrown in say that we are homoousian with God).



Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

And here are some ECF statements that virtually all scholars see as discussion deification. Der Alter disagrees, but I disagree with him.



Justin - 1st Ap. And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue.(ANF 1.170).



Justin - Dial. 124 ...thereby it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming "gods", and of having power to become sons of the Highest.(ANF 1.262).



Justin - Discourse To The Greeks 5 The Word exercises an influence which does not make poets: it does not equip philosophers nor skilled orators, but by its instruction it makes mortals immortal, mortals god. (ANF 1.272)



Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 3.6.1 “God stood in the in the congregation of the gods, He judges among the gods.” He [here] refers to the Father and the Son, and those who have received the adoption; but these are the Church. (ANF 1.419).



Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 3.19.1 He who was the Son of God became the Son of man, that man, having been taken into the Word, and receiving the adoption, might become the son of God. For by no other means could we have attained to incorruptibility and immortality, unless we had been united to incorruptibility and immortality.(ANF 1.448). [See also 3.6.1]



Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.Pref.4/ 4.1.1 ...there is none other called God by the Scriptures except the Father of all, and the Son, and those who possess the adoption. Since, therefore, this is sure and steadfast, that no other God or Lord was announced by the Spirit, except Him who, as God, rules over all, together with His Word, and those who receive the Spirit of adoption.(ANF 1.463).



Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.33.4 ... how can they be saved unless it was God who wrought out their salvation upon earth? Or how shall man pass into God, unless God has [first] passed into man?(ANF 1.507).



Irenaeus - Adv. 4.20.4 Now this is His Word, our Lord Jesus Christ, who in the last times was made a man among men, that He might join the end to the beginning, that is, man to God.(ANF 1.488).[see also 4.20.5-6]

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.38.3-4 His wisdom [is shown] in His having made created things parts of one harmonious and consistent whole; and those things which, through His super-eminent kindness, receive growth and a long period of existence, do reflect the glory of the uncreated One, of that God who bestows what is good ungrudgingly. For from the very fact of these things having been created, [it follows] that they are not uncreated; but by their continuing in being throughout a long course of ages, they shall receive a faculty of the Uncreated, through the gratuitous bestowal of eternal existence upon them by God. ...man, a created and organized being, is rendered after the image and likeness of the uncreated God... we have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods...He shall overcome the substance of created nature. For it was necessary, at first, that nature should be exhibited; then, after that, that what was mortal should be conquered and swallowed up by immortality, and the corruptible by incorruptibility, and that man should be made after the image and likeness of God, having received the knowledge of good and evil.(ANF 1.521-522).



Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.39.2 How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that thou, at the outset, shouldest hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God.(ANF 1.522-523).



Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 5.Pref ...the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself.(ANF 1.526).



Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 5.1.1 Since the Lord thus has redeemed us through His own blood, giving His soul for our souls, and His flesh for our flesh, and has also poured out the Spirit of the Father for the union and communion of God and man, imparting indeed God to men by means of the Spirit, and, on the other hand, attaching man to God by His own incarnation, and bestowing upon us at His coming immortality durably and truly, by means of communion with God...(ANF 1.527).[see also 5.36.3]



Theophilus - To Autolycus 27 Was man made by nature mortal? Certainly not. Was he, then, immortal? Neither do we affirm this. ...He was by nature neither mortal nor immortal. For if He had made him immortal from the beginning, He would have made him God. ... keeping the commandment of God, he should receive as a reward from Him immortality, and should become God.(ANF 2.105).

Clement of Alexandria - Exhortation 1 ...the Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God.(ANF 2.174).



Clement of Alexandria - The Instructor 3.1 It is then, as appears, the greatest of al lessons to know one's self. For if one know himself, he will know God; and knowing God, he will be made like God...But that man with whom the Word dwells does not alter himself, does not get himself up: he has the form which is of the Word; he is made like to God...and that man becomes God, since God so wills. Heraclitus, then, rightly said, "Men are gods, and gods are men."(ANF 2.271).





I have quite a number of other ECF.



Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

I thought I might add three other quotes.

Two are ECF who use 2 Cor deification scripture, and the other is a 2nd century Jew.



Mark the Ascetic - Letter to Nicolas The Logos become man, so that man might become Logos. Being rich he became poor for our sakes, so that through his poverty we might become rich. (cf. 2 Cor. 8:9) In His great love for man He became like us, that through every virtue we might become like Him. (The Philokalia 1.155)



Gregory Nazianzen:

Let us become like Christ, since Christ became like us. Let us become God’s for His sake, since He for ours became Man. He assumed the worse that He might give us the better; He became poor that we through His poverty might be rich; He took upon Him the form of a servant that we might receive back our liberty; He came down that we might be exalted; He was tempted that we might conquer; He was dishonored that He might glorify us; He died that He might save us; He ascended that He might draw to Himself us, who were lying low in the Fall of sin. Let us give all, offer all, to Him Who gave Himself a Ransom and a Reconciliation for us. But one can give nothing like oneself, understanding the Mystery, and becoming for His sake all that He became for ours.

2nd Century Jew

Rabbi Akiba, an early second century Jewish Rabbi, had this “detail” to offer on our exaltation:

"The Holy One, blessed be He, will in the future call all of the pious by their names, and give them a cup of exilir of life in their hands so that they should live and endure forever…And the Holy One, blessed be He, will in the future reveal to all the pious in the world to come the ineffable Name with which new heavens and a new earth can be created, so that all of them should be able to create new worlds…The Holy One, blessed be He, will give every pious three hundred and forty worlds in inheritance in the World to Come."(Midrash Alpha Beta diR. Akiba, BhM 3:32, quoted in Ralph Patai, The Messiah Texts (Detroit:Wayne State University Press, 1979), 251.)

Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

Tomorrow, I will look for Easter Orthodox Christians who speak of men becoming gods. Here are some modern Catholics including John Paul II.

G. H. Joyce



God, says St. Peter “has given us most great and precious promises that by these you may be made partarkers of the Divine nature (2 Pet. i. 4). Startling as the words are, the teaching which we have already considered will have prepared us for them. They signify that the sonship conferred on us through Jesus Christ raises us so far above our creaturely condition, that by it we partake in the life which is proper to the Three Divine Persons in virtue of Their nature. The passage does not stand altogether alone. When our Lord prays to His Father on behalf of the apostles and all who through their word should believe in Him, “that they all many be one, as Thou, Father in Me and I in Thee, that they may be made perfect in one” (John xvii. 22, 23), His words can hardly signify less than this. If our union with God is comparable to that which unites the Father and the Son, it can only be a union bases on a share in the Divine life...The fathers of the Church from the earliest times with one consent take the apostle’s words in their literal sense. There is no question of any figurative interpretation. They do not hesitate to speak of the “deification” of man. By grace, they tell us, men become gods. (G.H. Joyce, S.J., The Catholic Doctrine of Grace, London: 1920, pp. 34, 35)



Matthias Joseph Scheeben



If man is to be reunited to God as his Father, God Himself must raise him up again to His side...God must again draw man up to His bosom as His child, regenerate him to new divine life, and again clothe him with the garment of His children, the splendor of His own nature and glory...this transformation of the will is essentially bound up with the inner elevation of our entire being by the grace of divine sonship and participation in the divine nature...The children of God participate as such in the divine holiness of their Father, in His very nature. (Scheeben, The Mysteries of Christianity, B. Herder Book Co.: St. Loius, pp. 615, 616, 617, 619 - emphasis mine - German first ed. 1865; English ed. 1946, translated from the 1941 German ed.)



Lugwig Ott



The Church prays in the Offertory of the Holy Mass : “Grant that by the mystery of this water and wine, we may be made partakers of His divinity, who vouchsafed to become partaker of our humanity.” Similarly in the Preface of the Feast of Christ’s Ascension into Heaven : “He was assumed into Heaven in order that we might be partakers in His divinity.” Cf. D 1021.



According to 2 Peter 1, 4 the Christian is elevated to participation in the Divine nature...Again, the scriptural texts which represent justification as generation or birth from God (John 1, 12 et seq. ; 3, 5 ; 1 John 3, 1. 9 ; ***. 3. 5 ; James 1, 18 ; 1 Peter 1, 23), indirectly teach the participation of man in the Divine nature, as generation consists in the communication of the nature of the generator to the generated.



From the scriptural texts cited, and from others (Ps. 81, 1. 6 ; John 10, 34 et seq.), the Fathers derived the teaching of the deification of man by grace (theiOis, deificatio). It is a firm conviction of the Fathers that God became man so that man might become God, that is, defied. (Dr. Lugwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 256 - German ed. 1952; English 1955.)





George D. Smith





The application of all this to the question of sanctifying grace will be seen more and more as we proceed, but for the present we simply assert the magnificent truth that grace is not only a positive reality in the soul, not only a reality which no created being could produce, but a reality which in itself is higher than the whole order of created things (even angelic) and is truly divine. This brings us at once to a wonderful phrase of St Peter, who says that we are made “partakers of the divine nature.” Catholic theology has ever clung to the belief that here we have no mere figure of speech but the declaration of a definite fact. We really are made to be partakers of the divine nature. It is not merely that our spiritual faculties of intellect and will establish a special likeness to God in our souls; that is true enough, but over and above this natural likeness to God a wholly supernatural quality is given to us which makes us to be of the same nature as God...St Augustine puts the matter thus: He descended that we might ascend, and “whilst retaining his own divine nature he partook of our human nature, that we whilst keeping our own nature, might become partakers of his.” St Thomas Aquinas, echoing the constant teaching of the past, declares in a passage which the Church uses for the feast of Corpus Christi: “the only-begotten Son of God, wishing to make us partakers of his own divinity, took upon himself our human nature that having become man he might make men to be gods.” And we know how the Church has enshrined this wonderful truth in one of the most beautiful of the prayers at Mass. “O God, who in creating human nature, didst marvellously ennoble it, and hast still more marvellously renewed it, grant that by the mysery of this water and wine we may be made partakers of his Godhead, who vouchsafed to become partaker of our humanity, Jesus Christ, thy Son, our Lord.” (The Teaching of the Catholic Church, edited by Canon George D. Smith, 1960, volume 1, pp. 553, 554.)



Both St John and St Paul exult in proclaiming this act of divine condescension. “Dearly beloved,” the first writes with all the earnestness of the disciple of love, “we are now the sons of God: and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know that when he shall appear we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is. And everyone that hath this hope in him sanctifieth himself.”...In light of such luminous teaching it is clear that is in a very special sense that we are children of God...Sanctifying grace, as we have seen, is a positive reality infused into the soul by which we are made to share the divine life...By sanctifying grace the very life of God is imparted unto them. (Ibid. pp. 556, 557.)



John Paul II





This is the central truth of all Christian soteriology that finds an organic unity with the revealed reality of the God-Man. God became man that man could truly participate in the life of God—so that, indeed, in a certain sense, he could become God. The Fathers of the Church had a clear consciousness of this fact. It is sufficient to recall St. Irenaeus who, in his exhortations to imitate Christ, the only sure teacher, declared: “Through the immense love he bore, he became what we are, thereby affording us the opportunity of becoming what he is.” (John Paul II, Jesus, Son and Savior, 1996, p. 215 - General audience address September 2, 1987.)



Charity, TOm

 

[Breetai]

I am only going to respond on the first TOm. It seems to me that you are taking the quote: "partarkers of the Divine nature" way out of context. Partakers of the Divine nature of God means that, thought the atonment of Christ, we are able to partake in the gospel. We are made one of God's children by Jesus' sin redeeming sacrifice. Also, by taking the Lord's Supper, we are partaking in the Divine nature of God; following God's command.

I would like to respond further, but I am too tired to read through everything right now. Maybe I'll find more time for this awesome thread later.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

And here are some ECF statements that virtually all scholars see as discussion deification. Der Alter disagrees, but I disagree with him.

Can you tell me where you got these from because I would like to look up the concordance words that go with these statements. Elohiem for example is plural of one God (in hebrew, which is just one more biblical proof of the trinity) but it also means "eartly magistrates and earthly judges". So where these quotes say "gods" it could just be referring to early judges like it does at times in the Bible , for example in the NT where Jesus says, "Have I not said that ye are gods?"


Justin - 1st Ap. And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue.(ANF 1.170).

Grace:This I understand that the word deifed here is used to mean "indwelled with the Holy spirit of God and therefore he becomes part of us.

Justin - Dial. 124 ...thereby it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming "gods", and of having power to become sons of the Highest.(ANF 1.262).

Grace: This I understand to mean we have the power to become the children of God through adoption like the scriptures say and become judges of truth by doing so because we are at that point indwelled with his Holy Spirit.

Justin - Discourse To The Greeks 5 The Word exercises an influence which does not make poets: it does not equip philosophers nor skilled orators, but by its instruction it makes mortals immortal, mortals god. (ANF 1.272)

Grace: Once again, it makes us immortal because when we die, if we have Christ, we will live forever with him and makes us like him in the sense that we will not die again but live forever.

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 3.6.1 “God stood in the in the congregation of the gods, He judges among the gods.” He [here] refers to the Father and the Son, and those who have received the adoption; but these are the Church. (ANF 1.419).

Grace: Once again..the small god vs. God Almighty. God Almighty judges the judges of the earth. This quote also goes to show that we only become the children of God through adoption when we come to Christ.

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 3.19.1 He who was the Son of God became the Son of man, that man, having been taken into the Word, and receiving the adoption, might become the son of God. For by no other means could we have attained to incorruptibility and immortality, unless we had been united to incorruptibility and immortality.(ANF 1.448). [See also 3.6.1]

Grace: This just says that we were only able to recieve grace because Jesus took on the form of man to become like us. This quote does absolutly nothing to prove the LDS viewpoint of man becoming A god.


Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.Pref.4/ 4.1.1 ...there is none other called God by the Scriptures except the Father of all, and the Son, and those who possess the adoption. Since, therefore, this is sure and steadfast, that no other God or Lord was announced by the Spirit, except Him who, as God, rules over all, together with His Word, and those who receive the Spirit of adoption.(ANF 1.463).

Grace: ok, this says that we are in God and he becomes a part of us through adoption...How does this prove the LDS viewpoint?


Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.33.4 ... how can they be saved unless it was God who wrought out their salvation upon earth? Or how shall man pass into God, unless God has [first] passed into man?(ANF 1.507).

Grace: God passes into man when we are indwelled with his holy spirit.


Irenaeus - Adv. 4.20.4 Now this is His Word, our Lord Jesus Christ, who in the last times was made a man among men, that He might join the end to the beginning, that is, man to God.(ANF 1.488).[see also 4.20.5-6]

Grace: of course man in joined to God through Jesus, that was the whole point of his sacrafice for sin. If it weren't for Jesus' sacrafice we would not be able to be joined to him for all eternity after we die.

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.38.3-4 His wisdom [is shown] in His having made created things parts of one harmonious and consistent whole; and those things which, through His super-eminent kindness, receive growth and a long period of existence, do reflect the glory of the uncreated One, of that God who bestows what is good ungrudgingly. For from the very fact of these things having been created, [it follows] that they are not uncreated; but by their continuing in being throughout a long course of ages, they shall receive a faculty of the Uncreated, through the gratuitous bestowal of eternal existence upon them by God. ...man, a created and organized being, is rendered after the image and likeness of the uncreated God... we have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods...He shall overcome the substance of created nature. For it was necessary, at first, that nature should be exhibited; then, after that, that what was mortal should be conquered and swallowed up by immortality, and the corruptible by incorruptibility, and that man should be made after the image and likeness of God, having received the knowledge of good and evil.(ANF 1.521-522).

Grace: ok, so this says that we will be like God in that we will recieve incorruptable bodies and the corruptible will be done away with, it also says that man was created and God was not and that we started out AS man. This also goes against the LDS teaching that we were spirit children before coming to earth.


Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.39.2 How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that thou, at the outset, shouldest hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God.(ANF 1.522-523).

Grace: this one I don't understand...I would need more reading on it than just this one quote, like what was he talking about before and after this statement. Part of it seems he is talking about God Almighty, part of it seems he is talking about a man that hasn't yet died. Do you have more on this particular quote?

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 5.Pref ...the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself.(ANF 1.526).

Grace:Exactly, and he did make it so we can become what he is...a resurrected being with an incorruptible body that will live forever.


Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 5.1.1 Since the Lord thus has redeemed us through His own blood, giving His soul for our souls, and His flesh for our flesh, and has also poured out the Spirit of the Father for the union and communion of God and man, imparting indeed God to men by means of the Spirit, and, on the other hand, attaching man to God by His own incarnation, and bestowing upon us at His coming immortality durably and truly, by means of communion with God...(ANF 1.527).[see also 5.36.3]

Grace: once again, talking about how God came to earth as Jesus and died for our sins so we may be indwelled with his holy spirit and live eternally with him in heaven.

Theophilus - To Autolycus 27 Was man made by nature mortal? Certainly not. Was he, then, immortal? Neither do we affirm this. ...He was by nature neither mortal nor immortal. For if He had made him immortal from the beginning, He would have made him God. ... keeping the commandment of God, he should receive as a reward from Him immortality, and should become God.(ANF 2.105).

Grace: well, from this quote, it would appear that this person is teaching that man does not only become A god but becomes God himself, we know that isn't possible so the only other thing I can imagine that this statement intended was that man becomes God in the sense that we can be indwelled with his spirit.

Clement of Alexandria - Exhortation 1 ...the Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God.(ANF 2.174).

Grace: same comment as above. I would also like the other writings that go along with this quote so I may read it in full context.


Clement of Alexandria - The Instructor 3.1 It is then, as appears, the greatest of al lessons to know one's self. For if one know himself, he will know God; and knowing God, he will be made like God...But that man with whom the Word dwells does not alter himself, does not get himself up: he has the form which is of the Word; he is made like to God...and that man becomes God, since God so wills. Heraclitus, then, rightly said, "Men are gods, and gods are men."(ANF 2.271).

Grace:This just flat out sounds like some kind of eastern new age/ old age teaching. I can see why it isn't in the Bible, it contradicts everything the Bible teaches, unless of course there is more to what he wrote than just what you posted.

I honestly don't know why you posted these particular quotes to prove your point. There are only 3 of them that even partially resemble the case you are trying to prove.

I would however, still like to know the exact source you got them from, I am assuming it was online because you posted them in such a timely manner. I would like to be able to read them in their entirety for myself and also a history on the writer too.

God Bless,
Grace





I have quite a number of other ECF.



Charity, TOm

 

[Toms777]

Der Alter,

You have proven nothing of the sort. I have told you that you stand alone not seeing the deification in the ECF. I have stated that there is only one required difference LDS deification and Catholic, EO, and EarlyChurch deification. That is that to be deified non-LDS requires a change of nature. To be deified LDS requires that through God we partake of the divine nature and become perfected though him, but do not have to become uncreated.

I do not appreciate you suggesting that I have been dishonest. The truth is that I am less impressed with your arguments than you are.

Charity, TOm

TOm,

Opinions of man are not the point. What is important is what the Bible says.

Where in the Bible does it endorse the doctrine that man can become God or gods?

 

[Der Alte]

I would say that two things are important here. First, Isaiah is talking about idols. He is not talking about men who are God’s children. This is from John Gill’s commentary:

before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me

intimating that idols were formed by the hands of men, and yet none of these were formed before him, and therefore could make no pretensions to deity, or to an equality with him; nor should any be formed afterwards, that could be put in competition with him. In short, the sense is, there is no other god beside him; as the Targum, Septuagint, and Arabic versions render it.

This is a very interesting explanation but lets consider the context. Below are two more passages in Isaiah which repeat this theme. It is true that there were no idols formed before God but we know very well that man-made idols existed at the time God spoke these words to and through Isaiah and that men continued to make idols long after Isaiah lived. Therefore this verse cannot mean that no idols were formed after God spoke. Since that is true then the correct understanding of "before me there was no God formed" cannot refer to man-made idols.

When God said, "Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." was He saying that there were no idols in existence at that time, that He did not know of any idol, then in existence? If that is your interperetation then you need to read Isaiah where God speaks judgement on those who worship idols.

In Isaiah 45 God clearly acknowledges the existence of man-made idols, so when He says "there is no God else beside me;" is it your contention that God said there were no idols beside Him?

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.
8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isa 45:20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.​

[/size]​

All men are through God, none stand alone.

And your point is?

Other scriptural verses do point to uniting with God and maintaining a oneness. Deified men are united with God in a oneness.

Book, chapter, and verse, please?

Catholic deification is quite clearly this uniting.

Your proof? The fact that a few Catholics may have expressed an opinion on this does not mean it is the doctrine of the church. Isn't that what all the LDS on this forum keep saying about the many, many, heretical teachings of your leaders?

My view of LDS deification requires a uniting and oneness too. I embrace the possibility of the deified humans growing in love somehow being unable to contain this love, resulting in growth I do not currently understand. But there will always be a uniting with God the Father.

Your view of LDS deification is unscriptural and is not supported by any early church father, in the first 30 years of the church. Men becoming gods is not Biblical, it is heresy!

 

[TOmNossor]

I am only going to respond on the first TOm. It seems to me that you are taking the quote: "partarkers of the Divine nature" way out of context. Partakers of the Divine nature of God means that, thought the atonment of Christ, we are able to partake in the gospel. We are made one of God's children by Jesus' sin redeeming sacrifice. Also, by taking the Lord's Supper, we are partaking in the Divine nature of God; following God's command.

I would like to respond further, but I am too tired to read through everything right now. Maybe I'll find more time for this awesome thread later.

Breetai,



Yes, I am well aware that Evangelical Christians do not see deification in the phase, “partakers of the divine nature.”

What I am saying and what I have shown with comments from the ECF and the Catechism of the Catholic Church is that pre-reformist Christians, modern Catholics, LDS, Early Church Fathers, and (I intend to show) Eastern Orthodox Christians see deification in this verse.

It is the Reformists while ignoring whole books/sections of the bible in forming their unique doctrine, who do not see deification in this quote.

It is not I who follow in the traditions of the new and unique, but you.

So, I respect your exegesis of the passage. I do not agree with it, many non-LDS Christians do not agree with it, and your exegesis is the “new and different” read not mine.



Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

Happyinhisgrace:

Can you tell me where you got these from because I would like to look up the concordance words that go with these statements. Elohiem for example is plural of one God (in hebrew, which is just one more biblical proof of the trinity) but it also means "eartly magistrates and earthly judges". So where these quotes say "gods" it could just be referring to early judges like it does at times in the Bible , for example in the NT where Jesus says, "Have I not said that ye are gods?"



TOm:

I am sure you did not intend to suggest that your words are my words. I almost missed your responses to me.

This list comes from a collection of ECF I have been collecting for months (perhaps even a year). I think every one of them in this particular list comes from a Catholic friend of mine. ANF is Ante Nicene Fathers. This web site has most of the text of these quotes though.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/



I will look through your list, but let me start by pointing out a couple of things. The phase “partakers of the divine nature” is used in most of this list of quotes. In the 2 of the 3 quotes I posted after this, 2 Cor 8:9 is used showing that Jesus became what we are so that we can become what he is. Unless you think the “divine nature” is being a judge or you think Jesus is just a judge, the judges argument (which is oh so popular) is not the most clear read on the statements.



Also, the CCC is an approved modern document (produce 1981 I believe). #460 clearly links men becoming gods with “partakers of the divine nature” and with a quote of St. Irenaeus. This is not a translation issue.



Happyinhisgrace:

Grace: Once again, it makes us immortal because when we die, if we have Christ, we will live forever with him and makes us like him in the sense that we will not die again but live forever.



TOm:

But the words say, “make mortals god.” Catholics are very clear that men become gods through the uniting with God. LDS are less clear, but I personally demand that this is part of what it is to be deified. It is clear that LDS do not do this by themselves. It is clear that uniting occurs. I just say that this uniting is tied to deification and must be.



Happyinhisgrace:

Grace: Once again..the small god vs. God Almighty. God Almighty judges the judges of the earth. This quote also goes to show that we only become the children of God through adoption when we come to Christ.



TOm:

The linking of “gods” with judges is not wholly without merit for Psalms 82, but it does not follow across the span of all ECF writings. It becomes quite difficult to do this linking. Clearly, the Catholic Church does not see this in the ECF (who they claim to be “our boys.”). I do not see it either. Most scholars acknowledge deification is taught by the ECF.

It should also be noted that LDS do not believe that men will ever be equal to God. It will always be a divinity through God of which we partake. We cannot earn or merit it.



Happyinhisgrace:

Grace: ok, this says that we are in God and he becomes a part of us through adoption...How does this prove the LDS viewpoint?



TOm:

Look closer. It says, “There is none other called God by Scripture except the Father of all, and the Son, and those who possess the adoption.”

First, this clearly say that “those who possess the adoption” are “called God by Scripture.” You said that it is us who possess the adoption. I say that we are growing such that we can possess the adoption, but either way this speaks about others besides the Father and the Son.

Also, this quote does a lot for the position I have advocated that there is one God, but that deified humans become gods as part of this one God.



Happyinhisgrace:

Grace: well, from this quote, it would appear that this person is teaching that man does not only become A god but becomes God himself, we know that isn't possible so the only other thing I can imagine that this statement intended was that man becomes God in the sense that we can be indwelled with his spirit.



TOm:

I was done, but this caught my eye. I am saying that we become united with God like Jesus Christ is united with God. There is one God. We are gods with and through God the Father, his Son, and the Holy Spirit. Abraham of the Old Testament is united with God and is a god today, but there is only one God.



Happyinhisgrace:

Grace:This just flat out sounds like some kind of eastern new age/ old age teaching. I can see why it isn't in the Bible, it contradicts everything the Bible teaches, unless of course there is more to what he wrote than just what you posted.



TOm:

Except that Clement of Alexandria was probably the most respected theologian of his time in the Early Church. He was a Christian. He has been made a Saint by the Catholic Church (or they would say by God). He is not some inconsequential person.



Happyinhisgrace:

I honestly don't know why you posted these particular quotes to prove your point. There are only 3 of them that even partially resemble the case you are trying to prove.

I would however, still like to know the exact source you got them from, I am assuming it was online because you posted them in such a timely manner. I would like to be able to read them in their entirety for myself and also a history on the writer too.

God Bless,
Grace



TOm:

These all came from a file on my hard drive. And these actually all came from something my Catholic friend sent me. The link I provided above will allow you to search through the ECF. The web will allow you to get a feel for how consequential Clement of Alexandria was/is.

The CoJCoLDS is a restoration and these early Christians believed in deification. There is a profound difference and I acknowledge this. Father Vajda acknowledged it in his essay when he compared LDS theology to the ECF. But, the similarities are stronger than you could expect from a farm boy in NY. The similarities are quite real. It is the Reformists who have made this teaching blasphemy. There has already been a couple of serious anti-Mormonism writers that instead of denying that men can become gods in a certain sense, they have said that the LDS form of deification is flawed.

As I mentioned before, Father Vajda noticed differences, but the similarities were quite real for him. Five years after his essay, he choose to join the CoJCoLDS.



Charity, TOm

 

[happyinhisgrace]

I am sure you did not intend to suggest that your words are my words. I almost missed your responses to me.

No, I didn't...that is why I put the "Grace:" before each of my comments.

Grace