Do Mormons go to Hell?

[MormonFriend]

Then you failed to read what I said. According to the Bible, works have absolutely no relationship whatsoever to salvation - is that clear?

Please read again what I said.

I have ignored the analogy because I think that first we need to deal with what the Bible says, then any analogy can be studied in the light of scripture.

Why don't you deal with what I put forward from the Bible?

Why don't you want to say if you have obeyed Jesus' command to be born again?

Please read the post I made at:

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=1410570#poststop

 

[Toms777]

Please read the post I made at:

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=1410570#poststop

It doesn't change anything. I showed you that the Bible is clear that we are slaves to sin before we are saved and the one thing that we can obey is to receive the true gospel, receive Jesu as Lord and Saviour.

Please deal with the Bible references that i provided.

 

[Zyon]

Yeah, I agree with you there.

Now what was your point?

No point, just an observation.

 

[MormonFriend]

It doesn't change anything. I showed you that the Bible is clear that we are slaves to sin before we are saved and the one thing that we can obey is to receive the true gospel, receive Jesu as Lord and Saviour.

Please deal with the Bible references that i provided.

Tom, if you want to get in the last post or word, have at it. I have had good discussions with many good people, and a few not so good (and at least they made sense).

How you ever came up with this conclusion:

Here it is clear that what must be obeyed is the gospel.

after tagging a refrence from 2 Thess 1:8-10 as a response to what Paul meant by:

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him. (Hebrews5:9)

...I will never understand the connection.

I believe the instructions of the scriptures to be simple enough for a child to understand, so when Paul teaches that Christ authored salvation to those that obey Him, ...it is that simple. Everything that Jesus taught, spoke, instructed ...is what we must obey. Love thy neighbor? Obey it! Be perfect? There must be a way, so find it and do it!

You asked repeatedly if I have obeyed Christ to be born again. I answered you, but it seems like you have selective reading. And after reading your comments on your other thread, I can see that you have a lot to learn from your fellow Christians here at CF about what it means to be Christian. I can sense the spirit of love from them, even though they discount my faith. From you I sense quite the opposite. But since you uphold the creeds, you must be Christian. I guess "that" I will never understand.

 

[Toms777]

I believe the instructions of the scriptures to be simple enough for a child to understand, so when Paul teaches that Christ authored salvation to those that obey Him, ...it is that simple. Everything that Jesus taught, spoke, instructed ...is what we must obey. Love thy neighbor? Obey it! Be perfect? There must be a way, so find it and do it!

then you do not believe the scriptures which say that you are not able to obey until you have received Jesus and Lord and Saviour and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? You don't think that it is much easier to acknowledge that scripture says that all we must do is to receive Jesus and Lord and Saviour, rather than the Mormon gospel which requires obedience to the law, temple rituals, accepting not just Jesus but also Jospeh Smith.

I think that the real gospel is more simple, so simple even a child can understand.

1 Cor 15:1-7
15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.
NKJV

Note what Paul says about those who are deceive by a different gospel:

2 Cor 11:3-4
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted--you may well put up with it!
NKJV

Gal 1:6-10
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
NKJV

The gospel is simple. Obey the comamnd by Jesus to be born again.

You asked repeatedly if I have obeyed Christ to be born again. I answered you, but it seems like you have selective reading. And after reading your comments on your other thread, I can see that you have a lot to learn from your fellow Christians here at CF about what it means to be Christian. I can sense the spirit of love from them, even though they discount my faith. From you I sense quite the opposite. But since you uphold the creeds, you must be Christian. I guess "that" I will never understand.

I keep asking but you have not yet answered. If you think that you have, show me.

Have you been born again, or do you follow a different gospel, a gospel given twice, not once, A gospel of works?

Jude 3-4
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.
NKJV

 

[ah_muse]

1) Main purpose of Mormonism:
Isaiah 14
13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.

2) Mormons Believe Christ's death brought release from grave and universal resurrection. Salvation by grace is universal resurrection. Beyond this, man must earn his place in heaven. Saved by grace after all we can do. (Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:23; Mormon Doctrine pp. 669-671)
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 669-671:



SALVATION

1. Unconditional or general salvation, that which comes by grace alone without obedience to gospel law, consists in the mere fact of being resurrected. In this sense salvation is synonymous with immortality; it is the inseparable connection of body and spirit so that the resurrected personage lives forever.

This kind of salvation eventually will come to all mankind, excepting only the sons of perdition. ...Thus it is that the Lord "saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him." (D. & C. 76:40-48.) All others are saved from death, hell, the devil, and endless torment. (2 Ne. 9:18-27.)

But this is not the salvation of righteousness, the salvation which the saints seek. Those who gain only this general or unconditional salvation will still be judged according to their works and receive their places in a terrestrial or a telestial kingdom. They will, therefore, be ******; their eternal progression will be cut short; they will not fill the full measure of their creation, but in eternity will be ministering servants to more worthy persons.

2. Conditional or individual salvation, that which comes by grace coupled with gospel obedience, consists in receiving an inheritance in the celestial kingdom of God. This kind of salvation follows faith, repentance, baptism, receipt of the Holy Ghost, and continued righteousness to the end of one's mortal probation. (D. & C. 20:29; 2 Ne. 9:23-24.) ...

Even those in the celestial kingdom, however, who do not go on to exaltation, will have immortality only and not eternal life. Along with those of the telestial and terrestrial worlds they will be "ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory." They will live "separately and singly" in an unmarried state "without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity." (D. & C. 132:16-17.)

3. Salvation in its true and full meaning is synonymous with exaltation or eternal life and consists in gaining an inheritance in the highest of the three heavens within the celestial kingdom. With few exceptions this is the salvation of which the scriptures speak. It is the salvation which the saints seek. It is of this which the Lord says, "There is no gift greater than the gift of salvation." (D. & C. 6:13.) This full salvation is obtained in and through the continuation of the family unit in eternity, and those who obtain it are gods. (D. & C. 131:1-4; 132.)

Full salvation is attained by virtue of knowledge, truth, righteousness, and all true principles. Many conditions must exist in order to make such salvation available to men. Without the atonement, the gospel, the priesthood, and the sealing power, there would be no salvation [full salvation/exaltation]. Without continuous revelation, the ministering of angels, the working of miracles, the prevalence of gifts of the spirit, there would be no salvation. If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation [in the full sense of exaltation to godhood]. There is no salvation [exaltation] outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. ...



​

3) In Mormonism, Hell as an institution is eternal—inmates come and go as in jail, but do not spend eternity there. Temporary. After debt is paid they will go to the Telestial Kingdom. (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 349-351):

That part of the spirit world inhabited by wicked spirits who are awaiting the eventual day of their resurrection is called hell. Between their death and resurrection, these souls of the wicked are cast out into outer darkness, into the gloomy depression of sheol, into the hades of waiting wicked spirits, into hell. There they suffer the torments of the ******; there they welter in the vengeance of eternal fire; there is found weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth; there the fiery indignation of the wrath of God is poured out upon the wicked. (Alma 40:11-14; D. & C. 76:103-106.)



Hell will have an end. ... After their resurrection, the great majority of those who have suffered in hell will pass into the telestial kingdom; the balance, cursed as sons of perdition, will be consigned to partake of endless wo with the devil and his angels. Speaking of the telestial kingdom the Lord says: "These are they who are thrust down to hell. These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work. These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times." (D. & C. 76:84-85, 106.) As to the sons of perdition, the revelation says that after their resurrection "they shall return again to their own place" (D. & C. 88:32, 102), that is, they shall go back to dwell in the lake of fire with Perdition and his other sons. Thus those in hell "are the rest of the dead; and they live not again until the thousand years are ended, neither again, until the end of the earth." (D. & C. 88:101.) ... Since those going to a telestial kingdom travel to their destination through the depths of hell and as a result of obedience to telestial law, it follows that all those who live a telestial law will go to hell. Included among these are the carnal, sensual, and devilish -- those who live after the manner of the world. Among them are the sorcerers, adulterers, whoremongers (D. & C. 76:103), ... Such also is the fate of liars (2 Ne. 9:34), of "all those who preach false doctrines" (2 Ne. 28:15), of those who believe the damnable doctrine of infant baptism (Moro. 8:14, 21), ... "The sectarian world are going to hell by hundreds, by thousands and by millions," the Prophet said. (History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 554.) ... Thus, for those who are heirs of some salvation, which includes all except the sons of perdition (D. & C. 73:44), hell has an end, but for those who have wholly given themselves over to satanic purposes there is no redemption from the consuming fires and torment of conscience. They go on forever in the hell that is prepared for them.



​

The BIBLE has No mention of people getting out of Hell. (Rev. 21:8; Matt. 13:24-43, 47-50; Luke 16:26)

 

[MormonFriend]

I applaud your research and application, not to mention the spirit of the post. I am not sure that it is correct that:

Since those going to a telestial kingdom travel to their destination through the depths of hell ....

My understanding is that if the person already lives a telestial law, but non higher, then they do not have to learn the minimal obedience through suffering.

Actually, only one phrase you made reflects insight from an outside source, although you probably quoted correctly from an inside source.

Beyond this, man must earn his place in heaven.

To understand that correctly, especially in here in the heart of Christian readers, it should be remembered that in our doctrine, a person got to this point because his knee did bow and his tounge did confess that Jesus is the Christ. This person has developed the humility, gratitude and meekness which would now be part of his eternal character. So any "earning" he does "beyond this" is done with the same humility, gratitude and meekness before God, perpetually acknowledging that without Christ we would not be where we are.

The following is an article from The Church News that sheds some light on the subject.

To realize blessings of being born again, keep covenants
Date: 04/11/98
- Signifies a covenant
- Found in and through Jesus Christ
- Requires obedience, endurance
When Latter-day Saints are asked the question, “Have you been saved?” which is so common in the conversation of some Christians, it can be puzzling to members of the Church, said Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve.
“It is not our usual way of speaking,” he said Sunday morning. “We tend to speak of ‘saved’ or ‘salvation’ as a future event rather than something that has already been realized.”
He explained that members of other faiths who use these terms mean that “we are ‘saved’ when we sincerely declare or confess that we have accepted Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior. This meaning relies on words of the Apostle Paul:
“If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Rom. 10:9.)
Church members use the words “saved” and “salvation” to signify a present covenant relationship with Jesus Christ in which they are assured salvation from the consequences of sin if they are obedient.
Elder Oaks explained that as Latter-day Saints use the words, there are at least six different meanings. “According to some of these, our salvation is assured - we are already saved. In others, salvation must be spoken of as a future event (1 Cor. 5:5) or as conditioned upon a future event (Mark 13:13). But in all of these meanings or kinds of salvation, salvation is in and through Jesus Christ.”
He said that one aspect of being saved is from the permanance of death through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 15:22.) Another is to be saved from the consequences of sin, which is conditional upon “obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.”
Many verses in the New Testament refer to salvation by grace, but there are also many specific commandments on personal behavior and many references to the importance of works. “In addition, the Savior taught that we must endure to the end in order to be saved,” said Elder Oaks. (See Matt. 10:22; Mark 13:13.)
He said that being cleansed from sin through Christ’s atonement is “conditioned upon the individual sinner’s faith, which must be manifested by obedience to the Lord’s command to repent, be baptized, and receive the Holy Ghost.”
This does not mean that Latter-day Saints deny the grace of God, nor that they can earn their own salvation, affirmed Elder Oaks. Rather “we know it is by grace we are saved, after all we can do.” (2 Ne. 25:23.)
He said the question whether a person has been saved is sometimes phrased in terms of whether that person has been “born again.”
“As we understand these scriptures, our answer to whether we have been born again is clearly ‘yes,’ ” he said. “We were born again when we entered into a covenant relationship with our Savior by being born of the water and of the Spirit and by taking upon ourselves the name of Jesus Christ.”
To realize the blessings of this, however, members must keep their covenants and endure to the end, he declared.
Being saved can also refer to being saved from the darkness of ignorance or being delivered from the second, or spiritual death. Finally, he said, to be “saved” is also used to denote exaltation or eternal life, which is sometimes referred to as “the fulness of salvation.”

 

[MormonFriend]

..... I am not sure that it is correct that: My understanding is that if the person already lives a telestial law, but non higher, then they do not have to learn the minimal obedience through suffering. .....

I found your source by McConkie, ... good job and thanks for helping me know my faith better.

Darell

 

[Castman]

Hmmm, never have I seen a greater example of what Peter talked of in his General epistle, where he warned that Paul preached things that are hard to be understood by some who wrest and twist scripture, to their own destruction. You can find the source on your own I am sure.

Those who believe the mainstream Born Again ish doctrine do not believe the Bible. They may claim to, they may quote from it, but they do not believe it. If they did, they would remember the words of James which said Faith without works is Dead. If you think a belief in christ is all that is required of salvation, then you will end up being sorely dissapointed. The truth is clear, it needs no twisting. Many people cannot see the Forest (the plan of God) for the trees (individual scriptures taken out of context). If you were to search the Bible for your entire life and join a church that followed it the most exact of any church it would be the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Those who think they believe in Christ and follow him yet reject and persecute his annointed servants are like the pharisee's of old, likened to the parable of the servants of the vineyard in Mark 12. Repent, or perish.

 

[Toms777]

Hmmm, never have I seen a greater example of what Peter talked of in his General epistle, where he warned that Paul preached things that are hard to be understood by some who wrest and twist scripture, to their own destruction. You can find the source on your own I am sure.

Those who believe the mainstream Born Again ish doctrine do not believe the Bible. They may claim to, they may quote from it, but they do not believe it. If they did, they would remember the words of James which said Faith without works is Dead. If you think a belief in christ is all that is required of salvation, then you will end up being sorely dissapointed. The truth is clear, it needs no twisting. Many people cannot see the Forest (the plan of God) for the trees (individual scriptures taken out of context). If you were to search the Bible for your entire life and join a church that followed it the most exact of any church it would be the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Those who think they believe in Christ and follow him yet reject and persecute his annointed servants are like the pharisee's of old, likened to the parable of the servants of the vineyard in Mark 12. Repent, or perish.

Show me where the Bible says that works are necessary in order to be saved.

 

[Wrigley]

Repent, or perish.

You would be wise to take your own advice and repent of your mormonism.

 

[fatboys]

Show me where the Bible says that works are necessary in order to be saved.

FB:
James 2:17
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:18
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:19
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

James 2:20
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:21
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:22
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


FB: You believe that Faith is all one needs for salvation. How do we know that one has faith? James says that a person has to show his faith by his works. In this way our faith can become perfect. And is the only way our faith can become perfect. The word perfect comes up time and time again as it is applied to our progression in faith, or works. I know what you are trying to say in James, that since it does not say that faith and works saves us, then faith is all you need. James is saying that in order for us to have faith, then we need works. Your whole basis for salvation upon faith only comes from misunderstanding the words of Paul who is speaking of the Old law works which can not bring faith to perfection. The new law works which Christ lived by and commanded us to live by are the works James is speaking of.

 

[Wrigley]

FB:
James 2:17
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:18
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:19
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

James 2:20
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:21
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:22
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


FB: You believe that Faith is all one needs for salvation. How do we know that one has faith? James says that a person has to show his faith by his works. In this way our faith can become perfect. And is the only way our faith can become perfect. The word perfect comes up time and time again as it is applied to our progression in faith, or works. I know what you are trying to say in James, that since it does not say that faith and works saves us, then faith is all you need. James is saying that in order for us to have faith, then we need works. Your whole basis for salvation upon faith only comes from misunderstanding the words of Paul who is speaking of the Old law works which can not bring faith to perfection. The new law works which Christ lived by and commanded us to live by are the works James is speaking of.

You don't understand James.

 

[Theway]

You would be wise to take your own advice and repent of your mormonism.

Are you saying that he would have to perform a work first (repent) to be saved

 

[Toms777]

FB:
James 2:17
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:18
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:22
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

In context, this is speaking of works after salvation, not that they are essential for salvation. Works are to be a response to our salvation.

James 2:19
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

This says nothing about works, but rather warns those who claim to believe in God that they are not necessarily saved simply because they say that they believe - Mormons need consider this.

James 2:20
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Same as above.

James 2:21
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Read in context:

James 2:22-23
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
NKJV

It was his belief that was credited to him and the works followed that.

 

[Wrigley]

Are you saying that he would have to perform a work first (repent) to be saved

You'll have to prove from the Bible that repentance is a work.

 

[RhetorTheo]

Many Christians describe Hell as being a paradise. They do this for doctrinal reasons, trying to explain away Jesus telling the thief on the cross, who confessed Jesus as the Christ, that he'd soon be in Paradise with Jesus.

The obvious lesson is that faith alone was enough to save the thief, but Christians prefer to say that Jesus was referring to his pending descent into Hell. They say that Paradise didn't mean Heaven, it meant Hell.

 

[Toms777]

Many Christians describe Hell as being a paradise. They do this for doctrinal reasons, trying to explain away Jesus telling the thief on the cross, who confessed Jesus as the Christ, that he'd soon be in Paradise with Jesus.

The obvious lesson is that faith alone was enough to save the thief, but Christians prefer to say that Jesus was referring to his pending descent into Hell. They say that Paradise didn't mean Heaven, it meant Hell.

Then you have not been speaking to Christians, Mormons maybe, but not Christians.

 

[Wrigley]

Many Christians describe Hell as being a paradise. They do this for doctrinal reasons, trying to explain away Jesus telling the thief on the cross, who confessed Jesus as the Christ, that he'd soon be in Paradise with Jesus.

The obvious lesson is that faith alone was enough to save the thief, but Christians prefer to say that Jesus was referring to his pending descent into Hell. They say that Paradise didn't mean Heaven, it meant Hell.

Uh. first time I've heard that. Are you sure you're talking to Christians?

 

[Theway]

You'll have to prove from the Bible that repentance is a work.

Repentance means a turning away from sin, Though God can change or hearts because of our free will it takes constant vigilance and repentance, enduring to the end for us to stay on the path. Or do you think that all one does is profess faith and you are sinless forever. If that be the case everytime you sin after being saved you are now knowingly rebeling against God and telling Christ to pick up the tab. Thats why one needs to constantly repent and bear fruits worthy of repentance for Christ is always willing to forgive us. Repentance is a constant work.
Matt. 3:8
Acts 20:21
Acts 26:20
Just my thoughts