Do Mormons go to Hell?

[DCP 32° K.T]

...Thus the faith comes first then works is a response....

While it is true that faith does generate works, James is quite clear (check the Greek text of James 2:22-24, if you don't believe it) that faith is perfected or completed by works and that faith and works form a synergy bringing about justification before God. In short, a man cannot be justified before God without such a synergy. James even uses the word from which our word synergy derives. He also is clear that a man is not saved by faith alone. A living faith not only initializes works of faith but is itself revitalized by the synergy with works in the believer. Salvation and justification cannot occur without both. A synergy means that two or more things work together mutually to accomplish something. James states that faith and works form such a synergy which results in justification before God. In no case did Paul teach that one is saved by faith alone or by grace alone. If he had, he would have contradicted James and vice versa. He taught that we are saved by grace through faith. James defined that faith. It is a living faith that works together with works in a synergy.

However, in no case can anyone boast because all are unprofitable servants in varying degrees, and all unworthy of salvation apart from his grace given to us by imputing Christ's righteousness as our own, covering our own failings. Though there is no room to boast, the works still are required and all will be judged thereby. Elimination of any one of the sides of what I call the salvation triangle (grace, faith, works) will not result in salvation in the Kingdom of God for the individual.

It also is not true that faith always proceeds the works. In the case of Cornelius, he had been doing good works and was sent by God to learn of the faith from Peter. So, in at least his case, we have an example of a man beginning with works and later receiving saving faith in Jesus Christ as a reward for faithfulness in deeds. Could not the same have happened to others in times past and could not yet the same happen with yet still others from the present to the future?

 

[Toms777]

While it is true that faith does generate works, James is quite clear (check the Greek text of James 2:22-24, if you don't believe it) that faith is perfected or completed by works and that faith and works form a synergy bringing about justification before God. In short, a man cannot be justified before God without such a synergy. James even uses the word from which our word synergy derives. He also is clear that a man is not saved by faith alone. A living faith not only initializes works of faith but is itself revitalized by the synergy with works in the believer. Salvation and justification cannot occur without both. A synergy means that two or more things work together mutually to accomplish something. James states that faith and works form such a synergy which results in justification before God. In no case did Paul teach that one is saved by faith alone or by grace alone. If he had, he would have contradicted James and vice versa. He taught that we are saved by grace through faith. James defined that faith. It is a living faith that works together with works in a synergy.

However, in no case can anyone boast because all are unprofitable servants in varying degrees, and all unworthy of salvation apart from his grace given to us by imputing Christ's righteousness as our own, covering our own failings. Though there is no room to boast, the works still are required and all will be judged thereby. Elimination of any one of the sides of what I call the salvation triangle (grace, faith, works) will not result in salvation in the Kingdom of God for the individual.

It also is not true that faith always proceeds the works. In the case of Cornelius, he had been doing good works and was sent by God to learn of the faith from Peter. So, in at least his case, we have an example of a man beginning with works and later receiving saving faith in Jesus Christ as a reward for faithfulness in deeds. Could not the same have happened to others in times past and could not yet the same happen with yet still others from the present to the future?

Let me deal with your last point first. I never said that a person might not have works before faith. What I said was what scripture also says and that is that salvation is not of works. Works do not save. That is why no man can boast.

Once one has faith, then works are a response to that faith and does in fact build up faith (so I agree in part witgh one of your points) because one always grows closer to God as one is obedient to God, and that includes works in obedience to His command and submission to His word in the Bible.

But what you will not find in the Bible is works saving anyone in part or in whole from hell.

 

[MormonFriend]

I don't know if he intended to do so, but
DCP, 32°, K.T pretty much said everything I said. He does have a better way with words.

The topic was works being a requirement of salvation and you referenced this verse. If you now have conceded that works is not required for salvation, then that is good.

Let's back up and start all over.
I said: ...please don't be mislead that Mormons believe that works have saving characteristics. Works have a relationship to Salvation, but far, far from the essence.
And you said:Why don't you tell us in your opinion, what role works has to play in relationship to salvation.
And I responded:Thank you for asking. My response is not to debate the issue, but that you might better understand our perspective.and I proceeded to tell you how works is related to salvation, but not a saving principle.

Now you say: If you now have conceded that works is not required for salvation, then that is good.

I have demonstrated to you how works are related to salvation (and required) but not an element that saves us.

Paul confirms that works is required for salvation:

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; (Hebrews5:9)

We all know that works do not save us. We cannot work our way into heaven. I have never believed that it could. I have never been taught that it could. Yet it is nevertheless, a requirement.

 

[fatboys]

I don't know if he intended to do so, but
DCP, 32°, K.T pretty much said everything I said. He does have a better way with words.
Let's back up and start all over.
I said: ...please don't be mislead that Mormons believe that works have saving characteristics. Works have a relationship to Salvation, but far, far from the essence.
And you said:Why don't you tell us in your opinion, what role works has to play in relationship to salvation.
And I responded:Thank you for asking. My response is not to debate the issue, but that you might better understand our perspective.and I proceeded to tell you how works is related to salvation, but not a saving principle.

Now you say: If you now have conceded that works is not required for salvation, then that is good.

I have demonstrated to you how works are related to salvation (and required) but not an element that saves us.

Paul confirms that works is required for salvation:
We all know that works do not save us. We cannot work our way into heaven. I have never believed that it could. I have never been taught that it could. Yet it is nevertheless, a requirement.

FB: I have stated this many times here, but the notion that the works Paul speaks of is the New higher laws and the works that follow by obedience to those higher laws is the same works Paul is speaking of is false. Paul is speaking about lower laws and a man could boast all he wanted about his obedience to these lower laws, and they are nothing to the Lord as they do not bring about perfection. Christ's laws do bring about perfection. The old law were as filthy rags compared to the law Christ brought and lived by. As said by previous LDS posters, the works are required in order for Faith to take place. A whole religious thought has arised from a false assumption that Paul was speaking about new law works when he was refering to the temporary Mosaic law, not bring salvation.

 

[Wrigley]

I don't know if he intended to do so, but
DCP, 32°, K.T pretty much said everything I said. He does have a better way with words.
Let's back up and start all over.
I said: ...please don't be mislead that Mormons believe that works have saving characteristics. Works have a relationship to Salvation, but far, far from the essence.
And you said:Why don't you tell us in your opinion, what role works has to play in relationship to salvation.
And I responded:Thank you for asking. My response is not to debate the issue, but that you might better understand our perspective.and I proceeded to tell you how works is related to salvation, but not a saving principle.

Now you say: If you now have conceded that works is not required for salvation, then that is good.

I have demonstrated to you how works are related to salvation (and required) but not an element that saves us.

Paul confirms that works is required for salvation:
We all know that works do not save us. We cannot work our way into heaven. I have never believed that it could. I have never been taught that it could. Yet it is nevertheless, a requirement.

Maybe some day you'll understand that works do not have anything to do with salvation. We do works because we are saved. As a sign of gratitude and obediance to God for His work of Salvation.

Your whole perspective is wrong.

 

[MormonFriend]

Maybe some day you'll understand that works do not have anything to do with salvation. We do works because we are saved. As a sign of gratitude and obediance to God for His work of Salvation.

Your whole perspective is wrong.

Then please explain what Paul meant when he said that Christ is the author of salvation to those that obey Him.

 

[Toms777]

Then please explain what Paul meant when he said that Christ is the author of salvation to those that obey Him.

Jesus commanded that you be born again.

If we depended upon works for salvation, we would all be lost without hope (Romans 3:23).

If our works could pay for even part of our sin, then Christ's death on the cross was unnecessary, thus the doctrine of works is a denial of the gospel.

 

[Wrigley]

Then please explain what Paul meant when he said that Christ is the author of salvation to those that obey Him.

Eph. 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and
this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not
by works, so that to one can boast.

Paul's pretty clear here.

 

[Zyon]

To me, doing works means I do all that I can and Christ covers the rest. I think the only problem I had with being saved thru grace alone meant that I could be lazy and do whatever i felt like doing, as long as I believe that Christ is my Lord and Savior. Although I still think that works plays some part, I am now starting to understand others point of view. Especially when wrigley wrote...

Maybe some day you'll understand that works do not have anything to do with salvation. We do works because we are saved. As a sign of gratitude and obediance to God for His work of Salvation.

That made sense. It's nice to start to understand why ppl believe the way they do.

 

[Wrigley]

To me, doing works means I do all that I can and Christ covers the rest. I think the only problem I had with being saved thru grace alone meant that I could be lazy and do whatever i felt like doing, as long as I believe that Christ is my Lord and Savior. Although I still think that works plays some part, I am now starting to understand others point of view. Especially when wrigley wrote...

That made sense. It's nice to start to understand why ppl believe the way they do.

I didn't say what you're quoting me saying. You may want to look at the post and correct that.

 

[Zyon]

I didn't say what you're quoting me saying. You may want to look at the post and correct that.

Oops, sorry about that wrigley. I really should proof read what I write.

 

[Wrigley]

Oops, sorry about that wrigley. I really should proof read what I write.

Yeah, I agree with you there.

Now what was your point?

 

[MormonFriend]

Then please explain what Paul meant when he said that Christ is the author of salvation to those that obey Him.

Jesus commanded that you be born again.

If we depended upon works for salvation, we would all be lost without hope (Romans 3:23).

If our works could pay for even part of our sin, then Christ's death on the cross was unnecessary, thus the doctrine of works is a denial of the gospel.

I agree 100% with you. But neither you or Wrigley explained what Paul was teaching when he limited salvation to only those who obey Christ.

I posted a scenario that demonstrates how grace is offered and works had no connection to the act of grace, yet works were required to use the grace. I'll post it again. Please show me where this analogy contradicts or adds to what scripture teaches.

If I were stuck in a deep pit with no way out, and someone lowered a ladder, could I boast that my works of climbing out is what was rescued me? I have always had the ability to climb, but that didn't do much good in the pit, without the gift from my rescuer. Did I have faith in the ladder, or in the provider of the ladder? Could I demonstrate that faith without climbing it?If I did not apply my faith by climbing, I would soon be as dead as was my faith. Yet if I climb out, it was the gift that saved me, through my faith in that gift. This has every application and fits every requirement of the Biblical requirements. Works are a necessity, but are powerless to save.



The pit represents our separation from God. God has given us many gifts and talents, along with our weakness. But we can all climb! Jesus is the gift from God. His atonement and crucifiction/resurrection are the main poles of the ladder. Each and every step of the ladder represents God's laws or commandments, and are arranged in a particular order for us to climb. Each step must be attached to the two poles of Christ. The order of steps may vary with different individuals, as the personal refinement needed may vary, but all steps must be obeyed to climb. It is never a question if we can or cannot, it is a question if we will or will not. The first four steps however, are the same for all.

The first is faith in Jesus. Faith that the poles will sustain us. Faith that this gift is from God, with all due gratitude, indeed, Godly gratitude. Faith that we are indebted to Him beyond that which we can repay, because there is no other way of escape. He truly purchased us!

The second is repentance. Repentance is possible only because Jesus paid the price for our redemption. Repentance means that we truly regret our sinfulness, and love Jesus more than our sinful ways. That love is verified by the choices we make. We turn away from sin, and never look back.

The third step is baptism. Jesus said " ...follow me." He led the way and was baptized. We cannot follow Him unless we do the same. (Mark:16:16)

The fourth is to receive the gift of The Holy Ghost. The rest of the steps cannot be accomplished without this gift, that is, without divine help. Nor can we properly understand beyond the basics without His influence.

 

[Toms777]

I agree 100% with you. But neither you or Wrigley explained what Paul was teaching when he limited salvation to only those who obey Christ.

I posted a scenario that demonstrates how grace is offered and works had no connection to the act of grace, yet works were required to use the grace. I'll post it again. Please show me where this analogy contradicts or adds to what scripture teaches.

I answered but apparently you did not read my answer even though you even quoted it. Let's look at the specific quotes, shall we?

Heb 5:8-11
9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest "according to the order of Melchizedek," 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
NKJV

John 3:7-8
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV

Have you obeyed Jesus and become born again?

 

[MormonFriend]

I answered but apparently you did not read my answer even though you even quoted it. Let's look at the specific quotes, shall we?

Heb 5:8-11
9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest "according to the order of Melchizedek," 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
NKJV

John 3:7-8
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV

Have you obeyed Jesus and become born again?

Are you trying to tell me that Paul was referring to that one and only commandment out of who knows how many others? How do you derive at that one? How do I know that is only what Paul was referring to specifically, and not Tom?

I don't think you would agree with my positve affirmation of being born again, so we need not go there. But we agree that it is required.

And my analogy of the ladder and works? Does it contadict the Biblical teachings of Grace, Faith and Works?

 

[Toms777]

Are you trying to tell me that Paul was referring to that one and only commandment out of who knows how many others? How do you derive at that one? How do I know that is only what Paul was referring to specifically, and not Tom?

I don't think you would agree with my positve affirmation of being born again, so we need not go there. But we agree that it is required.

And my analogy of the ladder and works? Does it contadict the Biblical teachings of Grace, Faith and Works?

This is where it is important to understand what the Bible says about the gospel.

2 Thess 1:8-10
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
NKJV

Here it is clear that what must be obeyed is the gospel. What is the gospel, according to the Bible? Rom 2:16 says that the judgement will be according to the gospel preached by Paul. Let's look at that gospel:

1 Cor 15:1-7
15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.
NKJV

That is what the Bible says that we have to obey.

Why is it this alone that we must obey? Again, what does the Bible say? Are we able to serve God while we are unsaved?

Rom 7:25
25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

The truth is that we serve the law of sin until we are saved. We do not obey God, but we obey the flesh. Before can serve God, we must receive Jesus as Lord and Saviour and to do so, we must first obey Jesus command to be born again. That is why 2 Thess 1 say that we must obey the gospel, and the command of the gospel is to be born again, to receive Jesu as Lord and Savior.

Have you obeyed God and been born again?

 

[MormonFriend]

I knew that this discussion sounded vastly familiar. I left town for a week and forgot that you are the same person to whom I said:

I'm sorry Tom, I can't keep up with someone who selects and chooses partial paragraphs and evades the point.

I must say that you are consistent.

I'm sorry, your reply is Tom's interpretation to what Paul said.
It sounded pretty good, though incomplete.

 

[Toms777]

I knew that this discussion sounded vastly familiar. I left town for a week and forgot that you are the same person to whom I said:
I must say that you are consistent.

I'm sorry, your reply is Tom's interpretation to what Paul said.
It sounded pretty good, though incomplete.

Rather than making some vague comment, why don't you get into the Bible and show me where your interpretation says that it is incomplete.

 

[MormonFriend]

Rather than making some vague comment, why don't you get into the Bible and show me where your interpretation says that it is incomplete

I would rather finish the topic at hand. It sounds like you are now agreeing that there is a relationship between works and salvation, whereas works do not, cannot, nor will not earn our salvation, but nevertheless they do prepare us for the salvation we seek.

Are you not interested in responding to the example of how that is illustrated in my analogy of the ladder?

 

[Toms777]

I would rather finish the topic at hand. It sounds like you are now agreeing that there is a relationship between works and salvation, whereas works do not, cannot, nor will not earn our salvation, but nevertheless they do prepare us for the salvation we seek.

Are you not interested in responding to the example of how that is illustrated in my analogy of the ladder?

Then you failed to read what I said. According to the Bible, works have absolutely no relationship whatsoever to salvation - is that clear?

Please read again what I said.

I have ignored the analogy because I think that first we need to deal with what the Bible says, then any analogy can be studied in the light of scripture.

Why don't you deal with what I put forward from the Bible?

Why don't you want to say if you have obeyed Jesus' command to be born again?