Do Genesis literalists also take the rest of the Bible literally?

[AV1611VET]

So as you perceive yourself to be "harrassed" on a Christian internet forum (which is an interesting interpretation of events in itself),

I said "pestered."

... your immediate train of thought ...

Nope, I've said this here before. It's not something I just now thought up.

... is to wonder if the 9/11 attacks were prompted (even in a minor way) by the same thing you feel you are experiencing.

Yes ... being called an hypocrite (or various synonyms) for not hunting witches, marching off on a crusade, or dragging someone through an Inquisition.

Interesting (if disturbing) little insight there.

It didn't come overnight.

If the shoe fits...

I'm glad you find it 'disturbing,' though. Maybe you guys will stop it.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

I said "pestered."

Nope, I've said this here before. It's not something I just now thought up.

Yes ... being called an hypocrite (or various synonyms) for not hunting witches, marching off on a crusade, or dragging someone through an Inquisition.

It didn't come overnight.

If the shoe fits...

I'm glad you find it 'disturbing,' though. Maybe you guys will stop it.

Let's follow that train of thought again:

You feel pestered (your word)...*sound of your brain ticking over*...9/11.

Retribution clearly not a prominent theme for you then...

Yes, I'd say that was a pretty disturbing insight into your thought processes.

 

[AV1611VET]

Let's follow that train of thought again:

You feel pestered (your word)...*sound of your brain ticking over*...9/11.

Retribution clearly not a prominent theme for you then...

Yes, I'd say that was a pretty disturbing insight into your thought processes.

I really don't know what you just said.

Another [reliable] poster here confirmed that the Muslims are indeed prompted on their servers to take action on their Koran.

You can take that for what it's worth, but to say I'm the one with 'disturbing insight' is burying your head in the sand.

In any event, I've made my point; and I really don't care to discuss it ... it's disturbing to me.

You may now proceed with ridicule at your convenience.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

I really don't know what you just said.

You really don't, do you. Blimey.

Another [reliable] poster here confirmed that the Muslims are indeed prompted on their servers to take action on their Koran.

...which obviously made an impression on you.

You can take that for what it's worth, but to say I'm the one with 'disturbing insight' is burying your head in the sand.

I didn't say you are the one with disturbing insight, (I can't remember you ever showing evidence of having any sort of insight). I said it gave a disturbing insight into your thought processes. Quite a different thing.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

In any event, I've made my point; and I really don't care to discuss it ... it's disturbing to me.

You may now proceed with ridicule at your convenience.

And now you have convinced yourself you are a victim again. Which is no mean feat.

 

[KWCrazy]

The problem with religions is that they basically condone all manner of evil so long as it is done in the name of the pertinent deity. Of course secularists also do the same by supplanting God with political dogma. I am pointing out the hypocrisy of the so called Christian faithful who disregard the fundamental message of Jesus and instead condone evil in the name of money and or politics.

Your statement is patently false. Christians do not believe the ends justify the means and do NOT condone all matter of evil. Catholicism didn't condone homosexual priests even though some of the men in charged covered up the crime to avoid embarrassment. Islam condones terrorism and murder because such things were its founding, but I think you'll find it unique in that regard.

Christianity didn't condone slavery. It acknowledged that it existed. The strong subjugate the weak. While it is evil it continues to this day. Do you think a young woman who is kept addicted to drugs and forced to sell her body on the streets is any less a slave than those who were bought and sold in the 18th century? For all the talk about the evils of slavery, do you see the race merchants like Sharpton and Jackson doing anything to try and stop it?

Daniel Patrick Moynahan once said "Poor people are poor by choice." In America that is very true. If you choose to drop out of school, be lazy, never develop a marketable skill, have babies when you're 15, pay no attention in school so when you drop out you can't read, than you'll probably be poor. My brother was poor because he chose to be by the choices he made. The wino in the street made his choices too and continues to make them. Does that mean we don't have compassion for those people? Not at all. However, there is no will to fix the problem because every election cycle they are put on center stage again to demonize capitalism. Compassion wasn't the ACLU putting them on the streets because institutions were "cruel and unusual punishment." Compassion would be to get them off the streets and into programs where they could re-build their lives.

 

[mzungu]

Your statement is patently false. Christians do not believe the ends justify the means and do NOT condone all matter of evil. Catholicism didn't condone homosexual priests even though some of the men in charged covered up the crime to avoid embarrassment. Islam condones terrorism and murder because such things were its founding, but I think you'll find it unique in that regard.

I did not say all Christians! Only the fundamentalists and this goes for all religions.

Christianity didn't condone slavery. It acknowledged that it existed. The strong subjugate the weak. While it is evil it continues to this day. Do you think a young woman who is kept addicted to drugs and forced to sell her body on the streets is any less a slave than those who were bought and sold in the 18th century? For all the talk about the evils of slavery, do you see the race merchants like Sharpton and Jackson doing anything to try and stop it?

First of all the Baptist Church apologised in the mid 1990's for having condoned slavery during the American slave trade. Secondly you need only read the Bible to see that slavery is not only condoned but accepted and rules governing the ownership of humans as property are laid out within.

Daniel Patrick Moynahan once said "Poor people are poor by choice." In America that is very true. If you choose to drop out of school, be lazy, never develop a marketable skill, have babies when you're 15, pay no attention in school so when you drop out you can't read, than you'll probably be poor. My brother was poor because he chose to be by the choices he made. The wino in the street made his choices too and continues to make them. Does that mean we don't have compassion for those people? Not at all. However, there is no will to fix the problem because every election cycle they are put on center stage again to demonize capitalism. Compassion wasn't the ACLU putting them on the streets because institutions were "cruel and unusual punishment." Compassion would be to get them off the streets and into programs where they could re-build their lives.

Poor people are poor by choice? That is tantamount to saying that all Germans in WW2 were NAZIs and they all enjoyed killing Jews. Politicians know exactly how to subjugate the people and they know exactly how to control the public with the age old method of "divide and rule". An army is useless without MORALE; As is a society that is not motivated will degenerate and the vultures of corporatism and organised crime will surely reign!

Anyone who thinks the poor deserve their lot simply because they are lazy then I pray they will never suffer the fate of poverty.

Most Christian fundamentalists worship the right to make money above everything and they use religion to justify it. CREFLO anyone?

 

[SkyWriting]

THIS THREAD QUESTION IS FOR EVERYBODY, anybody can answer and participate in the discussion.

Do those who literally interpret the passages in Genesis 1-9 also literally interpret these passages:

1 - Women should not teach or have authority over men.
2 - Nobody should work on the Sabbath.
3 - Pork and shellfish are unclean and should not be eaten.
4 - Women should not wear pants.
5 - Nobody should wear clothes woven with different fabrics.
6 - Nobody should sit in the same place a woman during her period has sat.

Literally, yet in context. You failed to provide links to the passages in question. So you failed to provide
a basis for answering your issues. Each of the issues above requires discussion to put your claims back into context.

So for
#1 ....in the teaching part of worship service.
#2 ....unless your work is in reverance to the Father.
#3 ....in some cases.
#4 ....in some cases
#5 ....in some cases
#6 ....avoiding body fluids of others is good practice.

Some parts of the scriptures are litterally dreams, some are litterally future events in dreams, some are litterally visions with lots of symbolism.

 

[SkyWriting]

Poor people are poor by choice?

If you spend time with them, you'll find that the vast majority of poor people are simply un-motivated. Is being un-motivated a choice? For most people, yes. Being raised by an un-motivated parent or gardian is also a huge factor. But what one does with their situation is always by choice.

 

[Naraoia]

4) if Jamin wrote "poor people deserve it" somewhere, I honestly and completely MISSED IT. (Where did he say that?)

I do not know how much experience you have dealing with people who struggle with mental illness, addictions, crushing poverty amidst poor decision-making, and victims of violence, urban blight, war and civil breakdown, and just plain human shortcomings..........BUT THERE IS A GREAT DEAL OF TRUTH IN WHAT JAMIN WROTE:

Can I assume that you were reacting to his statement that:

"There really is often nothing you can do because when you try to help they drag you down with them." ????

If you disagree with this statement---or anything else he wrote in that paragraph----I'm very interesting in hearing the details of your objection.

Being OBJECTIVE AND REALISTICALLY about poverty, mental illness, and even depression-fed-by-addictions is NOT "poor people deserve it" crap.

Indeed, IGNORING the facts as stated in that paragraph explain a LOT OF THE FAILED GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS AND FINANCIAL WASTE which actually have tended to make life HARDER for "poor people".

I see I've touched a nerve there...

It seems pretty obvious to me that both of us are reading between the lines, and we see completely different things there.

I read "homeless people are homeless for a reason" and the rest as a general statement that there's nothing you can do to help these people because they did/do it to themselves. To me, that's greatly insulting to the people who are in bad situations through no fault of their own.

Yes, some people are very difficult if not impossible to help. I'm pretty hopeless in certain respects, I'm just lucky that I have a background and a bunch of other personality traits that prevent me from slipping into a life of misery.

I just don't like sweeping statements that write off a whole category of people who might be where they are for a whole number of reasons.

As for your interpretation, drug addicts etc. - that is a whole different question, of compassion versus practicality. If someone isn't worth the money and effort, should we keep trying? Is it more wrong to leave a homeless drug addict to their fate and save money or waste that money on trying to help them? Is it more wrong to abort a baby with a lethal genetic disease or to have it, which could be a huge emotional and material investment that ends in a ton of suffering anyway? These and many others are all related questions IMO, and I don't think they have easy answers. Very few questions related to ethics and morality do.

"How best to help the poor" is yet another question. FWIW, I'm all for helping people help themselves. Maybe I made a mistake in assuming the worst about Jamin, in which case he is welcome to correct me. My previous experience with him doesn't give the impression of a subtle thinker who can appreciate the kind of issues you brought up with homeless people, hence my reading of his comment.

I hope that helps you understand where I'm coming from.

(BTW, wasn't the story of the brother KWCrazy's, not Jamin's?)

 

[AV1611VET]

If you spend time with them, you'll find that the vast majority of poor people are simply un-motivated. Is being un-motivated a choice? For most people, yes. Being raised by an un-motivated parent or gardian is also a huge factor. But what one does with their situation is always by choice.

Unless scientists find a gene that makes them that way, eh?

 

[Naraoia]

Unless scientists find a gene that makes them that way, eh?

From what I know, it's very unlikely that anyone will find "a" gene. The person who makes the choice is always the result of multiple genes plus their entire life experience.

Would I have a curious and analytical mind regardless of my upbringing? Probably. Would I have studied science if my parents didn't buy me science books as a kid? Would I be an atheist if I'd been brought up in a more religious environment? Quite possibly no.

 

[KWCrazy]

I did not say all Christians! Only the fundamentalists and this goes for all religions.

It's still a slander. I consider myself a fundamentalist and I don't condone evil, nor does anyone I know.

First of all the Baptist Church apologised in the mid 1990's for having condoned slavery during the American slave trade.

You are in reference to the Southern Baptist church, and that does not include all Christianity. You might recall that it was the scientists of the time who said that the Negro race was genetically inferior.

"In 1912 the Columbia psychology graduate Frank Bruner reviewed the scientific literature on auditory perception in black and white subjects in Psychological Bulletin, characterizing, "the mental qualities of the Negro as: lacking in filial affection, strong migratory instincts and tendencies; little sense of veneration, integrity or honor; shiftless, indolent, untidy, improvident, extravagant, lazy, lacking in persistence and initiative and unwilling to work continuously at details. Indeed, experience with the Negro in classrooms indicates that it is impossible to get the child to do anything with continued accuracy, and similarly in industrial pursuits, the Negro shows a woeful lack of power of sustained activity and constructive conduct."
source

This was the SCIENCE community, not the religious community. It was the evolutionists of the day who proclaimed that blacks were lesser evolved and therefore not entirely human; that they were best used as beasts of burden and for repetitive menial tasks. It was the evolutionists who led Hitler to believe in a master race which was destined to rule over inferior races.

Secondly you need only read the Bible to see that slavery is not only condoned but accepted and rules governing the ownership of humans as property are laid out within.

Certainly there were rules because using captured enemy as slave labor was commonplace, just as using vanquished nations as slaves was common. Do you think that was what God intended from the beginning, or was God trying to set standards of behavior? Humility and servitude are traits that God considers admirable to those who serve Him.

Poor people are poor by choice? That is tantamount to saying that all Germans in WW2 were NAZIs and they all enjoyed killing Jews.

Moynihan was a Democrat, by the way. Certainly in most cases people in America are poor by choice because America is a place where all economic conditions are transitional. If you apply yourself you can rise from the ghetto and become very wealthy. If you don't, you end your days in a trailer park, selling food stamps for cigarette money.

Politicians know exactly how to subjugate the people and they know exactly how to control the public with the age old method of "divide and rule".

Nowhere was that more evident than in the Obummer campaign.

Anyone who thinks the poor deserve their lot simply because they are lazy then I pray they will never suffer the fate of poverty.

Do they deserve wealth because they are lazy, drop out of school, use drugs and contribute nothing to society? Is there no consequence to bad decision making?

Most Christian fundamentalists worship the right to make money above everything and they use religion to justify it. CREFLO anyone?

Another slander.

 

[AV1611VET]

From what I know, it's very unlikely that anyone will find "a" gene. The person who makes the choice is always the result of multiple genes plus their entire life experience.

Would I have a curious and analytical mind regardless of my upbringing? Probably. Would I have studied science if my parents didn't buy me science books as a kid? Would I be an atheist if I'd been brought up in a more religious environment? Quite possibly no.

Actually, I was making an invisible reference to something else.

When the Church was crying out against drinking as a sin, and warning that it can lead to alcoholism, scientists came to the rescue of the drinkers by "conveniently" "finding" a gene that makes a person 'susceptible to drinking' from birth. (My sister claims I'm a [potential] alcoholic, even though I have never in my life drank a drop of alcohol.)

When the Church was crying out against homosexuality as a sin, and warning that all homosexuals will go to Hell, scientists came to the rescue of the homosexuals by "conveniently" "finding" a gene that [supposedly] determines a person's orientation.

When the Church was crying out against abortion as a sin, and warning that abortion is murder, scientists came to the rescue of the abortionists by "conveniently" "discovering" the difference between a 'child' and a 'fetus.'

 

[loktai]

It's still a slander. I consider myself a fundamentalist and I don't condone evil, nor does anyone I know.


You are in reference to the Southern Baptist church, and that does not include all Christianity. You might recall that it was the scientists of the time who said that the Negro race was genetically inferior.

"In 1912 the Columbia psychology graduate Frank Bruner reviewed the scientific literature on auditory perception in black and white subjects in Psychological Bulletin, characterizing, "the mental qualities of the Negro as: lacking in filial affection, strong migratory instincts and tendencies; little sense of veneration, integrity or honor; shiftless, indolent, untidy, improvident, extravagant, lazy, lacking in persistence and initiative and unwilling to work continuously at details. Indeed, experience with the Negro in classrooms indicates that it is impossible to get the child to do anything with continued accuracy, and similarly in industrial pursuits, the Negro shows a woeful lack of power of sustained activity and constructive conduct."
source

This was the SCIENCE community, not the religious community. It was the evolutionists of the day who proclaimed that blacks were lesser evolved and therefore not entirely human; that they were best used as beasts of burden and for repetitive menial tasks. It was the evolutionists who led Hitler to believe in a master race which was destined to rule over inferior races.



Certainly there were rules because using captured enemy as slave labor was commonplace, just as using vanquished nations as slaves was common. Do you think that was what God intended from the beginning, or was God trying to set standards of behavior? Humility and servitude are traits that God considers admirable to those who serve Him.

Moynihan was a Democrat, by the way. Certainly in most cases people in America are poor by choice because America is a place where all economic conditions are transitional. If you apply yourself you can rise from the ghetto and become very wealthy. If you don't, you end your days in a trailer park, selling food stamps for cigarette money.

Nowhere was that more evident than in the Obummer campaign.

Do they deserve wealth because they are lazy, drop out of school, use drugs and contribute nothing to society? Is there no consequence to bad decision making?

Another slander.

Of course you would never stoop to such a level by quoting one psychologist and branding that one person as not only the entire science community but an evolutionist as well, and then blame the holocaust on evolutionists to boot..... oh wait a minute...

 

[Naraoia]

Actually, I was making an invisible reference to something else.

I know you too well. I know what you were "invisibly" referring to.

Regarding that, I'd like to reiterate this:

Don't confuse press releases and news articles with what scientists actually say. There's a reason I've stopped reading the former as a source of science news and gone straight to the papers. The job of press offices and journalists is to sell good stories, which means subtlety and complexity often fly straight out the window. While scientific papers also aim to be, you know, actually read, their readership has very different standards for a "good story". Among scientists, making sensational claims while ignoring the complexity of an issue is heavily frowned upon.

(And like it or not, nature versus nurture versus who or what's to blame for a person's problems is a complex issue.)

 

[AV1611VET]

I know you too well. I know what you were "invisibly" referring to.

Nothing rattles you, does it?

 

[KWCrazy]

BTW: Wasn't it "OMorman" who said that 47% of the popualtion wasn't worth bothering about? "Divide and rule," indeed...

No, he said 47% weren't going to vote for a Republican anyway because they were dependent on the government for their income. He was right too, as evidenced by the election.

 

[KWCrazy]

Of course you would never stoop to such a level by quoting one psychologist and branding that one person as not only the entire science community but an evolutionist as well, and then blame the holocaust on evolutionists to boot..... oh wait a minute...

Read some history. As late as 1942 doctors were convinced that black pilots could never engage in combat because their brains were inferior and they couldn't react as fast as white pilots. The Tuskegee Airmen proved them wrong. As for Hitler, denial of the relationship between the "master race" and evolution doesn't change the fact that German philosphers considered the Arayn race to be the pinnacle of evolution. The further one went to the East, the lower the evolution of humanity.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

From what I know, it's very unlikely that anyone will find "a" gene. The person who makes the choice is always the result of multiple genes plus their entire life experience.

.

Not "a" gene, but as you predicted, there could be a link to " 20 different genomic locations that work in tandem to influence activity levels".


Is There a Laziness Gene? - TIME:
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1827106,00.html#ixzz2EwzYMBd8