Do facts actualy point to a Creator?

[The Cadet]

Doesn't the fact that "we" don't know at this point in human history seem bizarre to you?

Not at all. Some people forget that it was a mere 120 years ago that we didn't even know what caused disease. A mere 50 years ago, we didn't know about the big bang. Our technological increases are impressive, sure, but we don't know what we don't know, and more often than not, we don't know because we don't know how to know. When it comes to certain issues, we literally do not know how to find out more.

...Of course, all of this is entirely moot because your original question, "So what is actually true about why the universe exists?" is not a scientific or empirical question, but rather a matter of philosophy. "Why" is simply not a question science asks, or is even well-equipped to ask. You're searching for purpose; we don't know if there is a purpose and we don't know how to test for purpose. I don't know that you do either. The fact that we don't know the answer to the ultimate question of the universe isn't just not surprising, it's literally one of the core running themes in the Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy series, to quite hilarious effect.

What if the answer is so simple that collective human knowledge has just passed right by it in the pursuit for more knowledge and less truth?

What if the moon is actually made of green cheese? What if psychic walruses hidden deep beneath the surface of Pluto influence our thoughts telepathically? What if all the silly "what-if"-hypotheticals in the world wouldn't get us one step closer to the truth without a way to actually test and verify them? Look, if you think you have the answer, then by all means - present it, then present evidence for it. But don't just hand-wave it away and say that attempts to learn more about the universe have taken us further from the truth. Because I can tell you, no what-if required, that luddite nonsense like that has no place in a world so utterly dominated by the fruits of the scientific method and the technology produced by it.

 

[Loudmouth]

Doesn't the fact that "we" don't know at this point in human history seem bizarre to you?

No.

I mean, how many brilliant people, way smarter than you and I, have tried to answer this question and still "we've" failed to find the true answer? And where are the aliens!! "We" need help figuring this out!!

What if the answer is so simple that collective human knowledge has just passed right by it in the pursuit for more knowledge and less truth?

Just venting some thoughts.

I see you are a fan of the "God of the Gaps" fallacy. So much for being logical.

 

[Chriliman]

I see you are a fan of the "God of the Gaps" fallacy. So much for being logical.

No, I'm just a follower of Christ.

 

[Loudmouth]

No, I'm just a follower of Christ.

You are just a follower of Christ who used a logical fallacy. So much for being logical.

 

[bhsmte]

You are just a follower of Christ who used a logical fallacy. So much for being logical.

He keeps saying he is logical, doesnt that count?

 

[Davian]

He keeps saying he is logical, doesnt that count?

And don't forget how many times he has used the word "honest".

 

[durangodawood]

...Some people forget that it was a mere 120 years ago that we didn't even know what caused disease.....

Most people never even knew this!

Yet they are incredulous that "science hasnt figured it all out" yet. As if this is some reasonable indictment of the whole endeavor or its possibilities. Patience you must have, my young Padawan.

 

[Loudmouth]

He keeps saying he is logical, doesnt that count?

Sometimes I wonder if some people think that way, as if repeating 'I am logical' is all you need to do in order to be logical. Why bother with all of those premises and fallacies when you can just jump straight to the conclusion, right?

 

[bhsmte]

Sometimes I wonder if some people think that way, as if repeating 'I am logical' is all you need to do in order to be logical. Why bother with all of those premises and fallacies when you can just jump straight to the conclusion, right?

Pretty typical defense mechanism. If i keep telling myself i follow reason and logic, it makes me feel better about having my arguments blown up.

 

[PapaZoom]

No.
I see you are a fan of the "God of the Gaps" fallacy. So much for being logical.

I'm not seeing this as a God of the Gaps argument. He's simply asking questions and wondering out loud. That's a fair approach to the question of the origin of the universe. In order to truly be the God of the Gaps argument you have to posit that since science can't answer the question, the answer must be God did it. I don't see that in his argument.

It's completely logical to ask questions and throw out one's thinking in a forum designed for just that. Rather than offering a snarky reply you could simply engage the questions in an honest way.

If I were to ask most of my Christian friends why the universe exists they'd simply say something like "God created it." Why wouldn't they hold to this position? It's a theological position and not a scientific one.
Genesis 1:1New International Version (NIV)
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

It's not a God of the Gaps fallacy to ask "what if" this is true. If would be God/Gaps if someone posited that since we don't know, it proves that God exists and HE did it.

 

[SkyWriting]

How did you establish that?

Science has established that.

 

[SkyWriting]

Because I can tell you, no what-if required, that luddite nonsense like that has no place in a world so utterly dominated by the fruits of the scientific method and the technology produced by it.

25% of the population don't have access to electricity.
Is there room for the 25% or are you kicking them out?

 

[Davian]

Science has established that.

<citation missing>

 

[SkyWriting]

How did you establish that?

"There was universe “here”, that isn’t our universe, then that universe became a black hole… and from that black hole formed us and EVERYTHING around us. Literally, everything around us."

 

[Davian]

"There was universe “here”, that isn’t our universe, then that universe became a black hole… and from that black hole formed us and EVERYTHING around us. Literally, everything around us."

"It is also possible that asking what came before the big bang is much like asking what is north of the North Pole. What looks like a beginning in need of a cause may just be due to our own perspective. We like to think of effects always having a cause, but the Universe might be an exception. The Universe might simply be. Because."

No beginning, no need for a cause.

You have not established anything beyond speculation.

 

[Extraneous]

The fact that we don't want to die, this points to a creator. Who else will we call upon to make us live, instead of die? If we deny that we want to live forever, then we deny the truth that is in us.

Ephesians 5:29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body,[d] of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”[e] 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

 

[SkyWriting]

"It is also possible that asking what came before the big bang is much like asking what is north of the North Pole. What looks like a beginning in need of a cause may just be due to our own perspective. We like to think of effects always having a cause, but the Universe might be an exception. The Universe might simply be. Because."

No beginning, no need for a cause.

You have not established anything beyond speculation.

Cause and effect are quite established. To claim cause and effect
are not relevant or active is the end of scientific discovery. I'm
afraid that the given argument is literally, the end of reason.

 

[The Cadet]

The fact that we don't want to die, this points to a creator.

Could you please frame this as a syllogism?

 

[Extraneous]

Could you please frame this as a syllogism?

No, but in the end we will still want to live, and no logical argument is needed to prove this. Who will you call on? Yourself?

 

[The Cadet]

No, but in the end we will still want to live, and no logical argument is needed to prove this.

I also want a pony. Does this mean someone is going to give me a pony? I want to fly. Does this mean someone is going to give me the power of independent flight?