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Do evolutionists really understand the complexity of things?

rjs330

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There are two conditions:

1. Produce offspring that have mutations.

2. Limited amounts of food.

With just those two conditions the inevitable and unavoidable consequence is evolution. Individuals with mutations that allow them to outcompete others in the population will tend to have more offspring. Those beneficial mutations will become more common in the population. This is just a fact, and an observed fact.



Do you still not know how evolution works? Species don't evolve horizontally. Not a single lizard or monkey has a spider as their ancestor. Species evolve vertically.

Also, you haven't shown that the species we see today are a necessary outcome of evolution. As Stephen Jay Gould was fond of saying, if we rewound the tape of evolution and restarted it, we wouldn't see the same outcome.



EVIDENCE?????



"Boraas (1983) reported the induction of multicellularity in a strain of Chlorella pyrenoidosa (since reclassified as C. vulgaris) by predation. He was growing the unicellular green alga in the first stage of a two stage continuous culture system as for food for a flagellate predator, Ochromonas sp., that was growing in the second stage. Due to the failure of a pump, flagellates washed back into the first stage. Within five days a colonial form of the Chlorella appeared. It rapidly came to dominate the culture. The colony size ranged from 4 cells to 32 cells. Eventually it stabilized at 8 cells. This colonial form has persisted in culture for about a decade. The new form has been keyed out using a number of algal taxonomic keys. They key out now as being in the genus Coelosphaerium, which is in a different family from Chlorella."
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html



I just disproved that claim.

If species evolve vertically then we could not have a common ancestor. Unless of course you are,saying that there were a million or more common ancestors. If you are then it may fit within the context of creation in that God created all the animals and set in process a way they could evolve as forced upon them by nature.

And that "evidence" you presented is a desperate attempt to show that evolution as presented is true. The cells did not change they just organized into colonies as a preprogrammed response to a change in environment. A change I might add that was done by an intelligent source even if accidental.

And that whole article was filled with assumptions and words like "may" and theoretical, assume and inferred. It even denotes the difficulties in time associated with it.

I'm not convinced in the least that any of it proves evolution from a common ancestor.
 
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Speedwell

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Was evolution an internal or external force acting on these life forms?
Evolution results from natural selection acting on random variation. It is the interaction of internal and external forces.
 
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Mobezom

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If species evolve vertically then we could not have a common ancestor. Unless of course you are,saying that there were a million or more common ancestors. If you are then it may fit within the context of creation in that God created all the animals and set in process a way they could evolve as forced upon them by nature.

"Vertical" evolution is simply saying "we didn't evolve from currently existing species".
 
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Kylie

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What was the starting point of evolution?

Evolution will work on ANYTHING that is capable of making copies of itself if that copying process is not quite perfect.

What did it work on...

I'll assume that you mean what is required for the mechanisms of evolution to take place. If you are asking what actual creature it worked on way back when life first started, the truth is we have no idea. Even if such creatures were able to leave traces, they would be microscopic and the rock they were left in was probably destroyed long ago.

Evolution works on the fact that the copying process between generations is not perfect. As imperfections creep in, the genome of the creatures changes. These changes will change the way the creature is able to live. Maybe it can run faster, for example. If these changes give the creature an advantage and help it survive long enough to reproduce, then these changes are likely to be passed on to the next generation. If the changes make it harder to survive, then the creature is more likely to die before it can reproduce, and the genes for those changes will not be passed on.

That is all that is required for evolution.

...and where did the organism come from that it began to work on?

No idea. That is in the topic of abiogenisis, not evolution.

How many 'choices' did evolution 'select' from?

I guess the number of individuals in a population, although the question as you asked it doesn't really make sense. There's an almost infinite way of varying the genome. It's not like a tick-a-box thing where you put a check mark in the boxes alongside the ones that work. The variations are not the sort of thing you can always put into their own little boxes, since they all work together. And you can't say that some variations work and others don't - it's more a case of some work better than others.

If we have over 50 mutations within us how do they manifest?

I'm assuming that you mean this question as something like, "If you cloned me, and made 50 random changes in my genome, how would those changes manifest?" The answer is that it could be lots of ways. It might be a different eye colour. It might make the clone more susceptible to a particular disease, or it could give increased resistance to a disease.

A lot of the possible changes will have little or no effect. The genome of every life form we know of is made up of four different chemicals: cytosine (C), guanine (G), adenine (A), or thymine (T). Thymine is used in DNA, but in RNA, the chemical Uracil is used instead). These can be strung together to form amino acids. But some amino acids can be made using different combinations. For example, CAU and CAC both make the amino acid histidine. Mutations like this will have no influence at all.

Do they compete with each other?

What do you mean by this? Do the mutations within a single creature compete with each other? That's like asking if the wheels on a car compete with the rear view mirror.

How do we know when and if a 'selection' is made?

If the animal survives long enough to reproduce and the gene is passed on to the offspring.
 
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Kylie

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Was evolution an internal or external force acting on these life forms?

Both. It was internal in the sense that the variations that came about were within these life forms (such as the ability to photosynthesize more efficiently, or the ability to get more oxygen from the air), and external in the sense that there were things outside the life form that ensured that not all of the individuals in a population would survive long enough to reproduce (such as predators or harsh environmental conditions).
 
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OldWiseGuy

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What do you mean by this? Do the mutations within a single creature compete with each other? That's like asking if the wheels on a car compete with the rear view mirror.

What if one mutation will result in better eyesight, but another will result in poorer eyesight? Aren't they then competing with each other, or don't they tread in another mutation's territory?

What happens to 'unused' mutations? Are they abandoned or passed on to the next generation? If passed on aren't they 'cumulative' resulting eventually in thousands of mutations present in a single organism?

Tires don't compete with other parts of the car, but if one is out of alignment it competes with the other three in keeping the car rolling properly.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Both. It was internal in the sense that the variations that came about were within these life forms (such as the ability to photosynthesize more efficiently, or the ability to get more oxygen from the air), and external in the sense that there were things outside the life form that ensured that not all of the individuals in a population would survive long enough to reproduce (such as predators or harsh environmental conditions).

That just sounds like 'survival of the fittest'. No evolution here, just some puppies in the litter are stronger than others. If that's all evolution is I'm on board.

But if evolution makes claims such as, the gradual elongation of the eye sockets of some species of raptors provided telescopic vision, I have to jump ship.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Why? Can't you see how gradual change could produce every complex biological system observed in current organisms?

Variation is one thing, change is another. Animals aren't clones. They depend on individual differences in order to identify and interact with each other, so of course there is variation. But that isn't evolution.

For example there are chemical differences in the secretions of each deer's interdigital and tarsal glands that allow other deer to identify that particular deer. This is true throughout the whole animal kingdom. But that doesn't mean evolution is taking place.
 
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Speedwell

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Variation is one thing, change is another. Animals aren't clones. They depend on individual differences in order to identify and interact with each other, so of course there is variation. But that isn't evolution.
It is if some of the differences are (a) inheritable and (b) increase the fitness of the individual in the local environment. When you observe that animals (or plants) aren't clones you observe the "random variation" of the ToE.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Variation is one thing, change is another. Animals aren't clones. They depend on individual differences in order to identify and interact with each other, so of course there is variation. But that isn't evolution.

For example there are chemical differences in the secretions of each deer's interdigital and tarsal glands that allow other deer to identify that particular deer. This is true throughout the whole animal kingdom. But that doesn't mean evolution is taking place.

But variation is change. It's a synonym of change.
This really leads me to think that you are only arguing against evolution not because you have any scientific hangups on it, but really that it threatens your religious beliefs.
 
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Speedwell

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What if one mutation will result in better eyesight, but another will result in poorer eyesight? Aren't they then competing with each other, or don't they tread in another mutation's territory?
Individuals will express one or the other or both to some degree, resulting in in a range of visual acuity in the population.

What happens to 'unused' mutations? Are they abandoned or passed on to the next generation? If passed on aren't they 'cumulative' resulting eventually in thousands of mutations present in a single organism?
Quite right--and some of them may eventually combine with subsequent mutations to provide more variation.

tires don't compete with other parts of the car, but if one is out of alignment it competes with the other three in keeping the car rolling properly.
No doubt due to a deleterious mutation. :)
 
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OldWiseGuy

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But variation is change. It's a synonym of change.
This really leads me to think that you are only arguing against evolution not because you have any scientific hangups on it, but really that it threatens your religious beliefs.

So the deer are actually changing, not merely expressing necessary individual differences? If these changes are 'predictable' (a foundational principle of evolution) what should we expect to see down the road, as deer are one of the most studied animals on earth?
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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So the deer are actually changing, not merely expressing necessary individual differences? If these changes are 'predictable' (a foundational principle of evolution) what should we expect to see down the road, as deer are one of the most studied animals on earth?

It depends on what pressures are exerted on them. If the heat grows enough, then they'll have thinner fur, or conversely, if the climate grows colder, then they'll grow thicker fur. It all depends on how their environment changes.
 
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Speedwell

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So the deer are actually changing, not merely expressing necessary individual differences? If these changes are 'predictable' (a foundational principle of evolution) what should we expect to see down the road, as deer are one of the most studied animals on earth?
The deer are not actually changing if they live in a stable environment. But each generation of deer presents a range of variants to the environment so in case it does change there will already be in the population individuals who will be comparatively advantaged by it.
 
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Mobezom

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Well, not quite true. If there is a particular niche, or a separation of two deer populations, then deer may evolve even within a stable environment.

But your statement is true in general; I just want to make sure that nobody draws the conclusion that nothing will evolve unless the environment changes.
 
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Kylie

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What if one mutation will result in better eyesight, but another will result in poorer eyesight? Aren't they then competing with each other, or don't they tread in another mutation's territory?

Thanks for the clarification.

I don't know if competing with each other is the best way to phrase it.

In reality, there would be many parts of the gene that could influence how good the creature's eyesight is. One part could determine if the lens is more or less flexible, while another part could have some influence on the retina, for example. If you are asking if Animal A, with genes that give it better overall eyesight than animal B, are those genes in competition, then the answer is that they will (given all other things are the same) give animal A an advantage. But that doesn't mean that Animal A is the best. Animal C could have all the benefits of Animal A, but none of the disadvantages. Also, it is possible that animal B had some advantages that Animal A lacked, even if Animal A had better eyesight overall.

What happens to 'unused' mutations? Are they abandoned or passed on to the next generation? If passed on aren't they 'cumulative' resulting eventually in thousands of mutations present in a single organism?

What do you mean by an "unused mutation"? If the mutation will change the animal in some way, then it will have some effect, no matter how small. it could be the requirement of nutrients to build up the retina in a species of mole that has grown skin completely over its eyes and is thus blind. An enhanced retina will be of no use, and thus the retina will go unused, but it still diverts resources away from other things - maybe the nutrients that were used to produce the retina could have been used to produce muscle mass, or offspring.

Tires don't compete with other parts of the car, but if one is out of alignment it competes with the other three in keeping the car rolling properly.

A mutation like this will cause the animal to find it more difficult to survive, so these mutations would be selected against.
 
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Kylie

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That just sounds like 'survival of the fittest'. No evolution here, just some puppies in the litter are stronger than others. If that's all evolution is I'm on board.

But if evolution makes claims such as, the gradual elongation of the eye sockets of some species of raptors provided telescopic vision, I have to jump ship.

Let's stick with the eye thing.

First of all, stereoscopic vision is determined by the position of the eyes relative to each other, not the shape of the eye socket. You need to eyes mounted next to each other so they give slightly different angles of the same thing. This is what provides the stereoscopic (3D) vision. When you see a 3D movie, two images are being projected onto the screen at once. The glasses you wear are polarized in different directions so that each lens lets only one of the images through. Each eye sees a different image, which your brain interprets as depth.

But as for the evolution of eyes, think about this.

Your skin is sensitive to infra-red radiation, which is part of the same spectrum as light. Our skin feels it as heat. I could blindfold you, but you would still be able to tell easily when a source of infra-red radiation was being directed at you, because you'd feel the heat from it. In fact, infra-red is used in heaters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_heater

Now, lets say I put your hand on the table, palm up. If I shone IR radiation onto it, like from a special IR flashlight, you could tell when the IR was switched on and switched off. You could feel it as heat. But you couldn't tell which direction it was coming from. This is similar to the eyes we find in very primitive life forms, they are basically light sensitive cells on the surface of the body. This is similar to the eyes of the earthworm. They are only enough to tell it if it is in light or dark.

But now, imagine that you cup your hand. Now you can get some idea of which direction the IR radiation is coming from. If I hold the IR light above your elbow and aim the beam at your hand, then your fingertips will feel the heat but the palm of your hand will not. And if I move the light so it is out past your hand, then your fingers won't feel it (not the underside of them anyway, where they felt the heat before), but your palm will. So now, unlike before, you can tell which direction the IR light is coming from. This is similar to the eyes of planarians, a kind of flatworm.

The next stages are rather difficult to use your hand as an analogy. We started with simple light sensitive cells on the surface of the skin, and saw how this primitive eye was improved by indenting it into a bowl shape. Now imagine that it keeps indenting, getting deeper, and the opening gets narrower. Now, any light shining onto this eye will strike only a small part of the light sensitive surface, giving a greater accuracy in the direction of light. And this increased accuracy formed by having a smaller hole will start to form a crude image. It's the same principle as a pinhole camera. And as the eye begins to close up, it starts to fill with a jelly like material (which only needs one or two mutations - mucous is quite common, after all) which supports the shape of the eye. This is the type of eye that the chambered nautilus has.

Of course, this can be improved. A pinhole camera must have a small hole, which can cause problems when light levels are low. But opening the hole wider also gives worse eyesight because it can't form images as clearly. But if the jelly inside the eye begins to thicken, it can form a lens which helps to focus the image, thus allowing a clearer image to form, even with a wider hole. This is the kind of eye that is found in your average garden snail.

Further simple mutations can develop the lens (remember, each mutation doesn't have to create a perfect eye, it just needs to be a slight improvement over what came before), move the lens to a better position and change the lens's refractive index.

So we can end up with a complex eye, such as the eye of an octopus, having developed from simple light sensitive cells on the skin. Each change was tiny and required only slight mutations from what came before, but all the little changes added up to form a complex eye from a simple beginning. And each step can be found in animals alive today, each animal having developed the eyes it has to the degree it needs them. A worm, for example, with only simple eye spots, doesn't develop more advanced eyes because it simply doesn't need to. It needs only to tell light from dark, and developing more advanced eyes would mean a use of resources that it could use to better effect with something else. (It's the same reason why you'd need only a low resolution screen to see if someone is walking up the front path, but a much higher resolution screen to watch your blu ray collection on).

So, going back to your puppies analogy, if you accept that small changes in one generation can produce some that are slightly stronger, then you should also accept that small changes in one generation can turn a flat patch of light sensitive cells into a slightly indented one. And just as how a slightly stronger puppy has a slightly better chance of surviving long enough to reproduce, a slightly indented eyespot can give the individual possessing it a slightly better chance to reproduce. And over many generations, this happens again and again - animals in each population getting slightly better able to survive, whether it is puppies that are slightly stronger or worms with slightly better eyesight. The mechanism behind both of these is exactly the same - small changes per generation which give a slight benefit, which add up over many generations to create new species and more advanced body structures.

If you accept the puppies getting stronger, then you must also accept the eyes evolving.
 
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Kylie

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Variation is one thing, change is another. Animals aren't clones. They depend on individual differences in order to identify and interact with each other, so of course there is variation. But that isn't evolution.

For example there are chemical differences in the secretions of each deer's interdigital and tarsal glands that allow other deer to identify that particular deer. This is true throughout the whole animal kingdom. But that doesn't mean evolution is taking place.

It takes many generations for evolutionary change to occur.

If a particular chemical difference in one deer's secretions gives it a better chance to reproduce, then the genes that cause that chemical difference are more likely to be passed on. Over many generations, we would see that chemical change become more and more widespread in the population. And it will get to the point where all the deer have that particular chemical concoction, when it was once a rare thing. That is exactly what evolution is.
 
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