Do Disbelievers Go Too Hell?

[Lynn73]

That is not a very accurate portrayal of my views. Nazis loved their families AND were utterly convinced that Jesus died for their sins and had saved them.

I know plenty of people who love their families dearly and yet are very far from being selfless, even with them.

The point is, which you still haven't gotten, is that you're promoting another gospel of salvation and you can read Galatians 1:1-9 to find out what God says about anyone or even an angel from heaven who brings a different gospel. You promote the gospel of selfless love and you say this love saves. The Bible promotes the gospel of Jesus Christ and His death for our sins on the cross. His shed blood saves us as we put our faith in Him. Jesus saves, not selfless love. I stand by everything I've said. You need to seek the whole council of Scripture.

And as for those who accuse of judging, there isn't any judgment of mike himself, but I will judge what he says and the doctrine he promotes by the word of God which is perfectly legitimate judgment according to the Bible. It is God who will judge his person, not me, and He's already given some of His judgments in Scripture for us to clearly see. Didn't the Bereans check the Scriptures to see if what they were being told was true? And weren't they commended for doing so?

 

[Debi1967]

God is Merciful and Kind this is true and because of this He sent to us His Only Begotten Son for the Redemption of all Mankind....

But God is also JUST....

He expects obedience from those that serve Him, He expects their allegience. He expects devotion and Love from those that serve Him. It is said that God is a Jealous God, and for good reason.

He expects these things because He is our creator, He is the one that has given to us everything that we now have and enjoy. He is the one that has given unto us the Hope of Salvation through His Son's Sacrifice.

And then time and time and again, instead of seeing Him and what He has done for us and embracing Him as we should, there are still some, in fact many, that have rejected Him.

Salvation of others we cannot determine, because Christ is the only reader of their hearts, in truth, but what we do know is this; that God has given to us a guide as to what he expects from those that serve Him. He also, has said what will happen to those that do not, and what their penalty will be. I cast no judgement on another person, but I do know this, that God will not feel pity for those that had knowledge of Him and rejected it, as it was of their own choosing to do so.

Do I view this as cruel on behalf of the Lord? No I do not! I view it as JUST! I view it as His way of protecting His Righteous. They will have led themselves to their own destruction at that point. You cannot serve God and serve the Devil at the same time, you must choose your Master as the saying goes.

In Christ
Debi

 

[Debi1967]

Yes, God is love (as well as holy, pure, wrathful, judge, etc.) The point is, mike's view is very unbalanced and unbiblical. The gospel isn't that love saves or that loving someone saves you, it's the fact that He went to a cross and shed His blood for our sins and died, was buried, and rose the third day. Yes, God did this out of love but read mike's posts. He says that having love toward people saves. It does not. That's not the gospel. There are millions of people who love their families and other people and are lost and on the way to hell because they haven't been born again through faith in Christ. He isn't understanding the whole council of the word of God but just picking bits and pieces here and there.

In this I have to agree with Lynn....

*debi can't believe she is agreeing with Lynn but nonetheless she is*

God says that among the attributes and the second command of God is to Love thy neighbor as thyself, the first though is to Love the Lord thy God above all else and obey all His commandments.... Not just the Second.

 

[mike1reynolds]

God says that among the attributes and the second command of God is to Love thy neighbor as thyself, the first though is to Love the Lord thy God above all else and obey all

His commandments.... Not just the Second.

That is part and parcel of selfless love. As I said previously, all selfless love comes from God, just as all life comes from God. You can’t be immersed in selfless love without immersing yourself in God. Lynn insists on redefining this to mean only carnal, selfish, or mundane love, so that she can have a point to argue.

I am not creating a new gospel, you are simply twisting my intended meaning away from God. But you are creating a new gospel. The gospel of God’s bigotry. Even atheists have more selfless love than this. Many have a lot more than this.

 

[BarbB]

GAL 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- [7] which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. [8] But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! [9] As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

1CO 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? [21] For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. [22] Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, [23] but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, [24] but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. [25] For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

Mike, I suggest that you read and digest the verses above before you continue in your unbiblical preaching, for preaching it is and you will be held accountable for any you cause to stumble by this....

 

[mike1reynolds]

You know, it was Protestant Christianity that turned me into an atheist at the tender age of 12, and has destroyed belief in God in much of the Western world. Most people that do believe in God in the West are agnostic, their faith in God is very weak. It is particularly weak among people with a high IQ. There is something that is repulsive about most expressions of Protestant Christianity to people of conscience and intelligence. This is a crime against God, and someone is going to be punished. It is a flaw in Protestant Christianity that diminishes God.

By contrast, in the East, outside of China, virtually everyone believes in God with great conviction. Eastern religious teachings about God do not repel people of conscience and intelligence.

I was rescued from the dark pit of atheism because my grandfather who helped raise me was an Air Force colonel and was encouraged to go back to college and get a degree, and he chose comparative religion. Between he and my father, they were able to find parallels to other religions that could cut through the sickening and repulsive bigoted portrayal of God that had sabotaged my faith. Sabotaging so many people’s faith is a crime against God that will send those perpetrators too Hell. I would think twice about being among them.

 

[Melethiel]

It is particularly weak among people with a high IQ. There is something that is repulsive about most expressions of Protestant Christianity to people of conscience and intelligence.

*raises eyebrow* I'm Protestant. I won't go into my IQ, but it's high. At least half of the university professors that I know are Protestant, and are certainly not pseudo-agnostics. Your premise is incorrect, I fear.

 

[mike1reynolds]

Well, Galations 1:6 certain seems to say bad things about a gospel of bigotry. By your interpretation, everyone who adheres to liberal expressions of theology, as well as all Catholics, are going too Hell. And yet Christ was a liberal revolutionary who was adamantly opposed to the conservative religious establishment of his day and their harsh judgementalism. It is you that turn Christ on His head and accuse everyone who accurately understands His message of love of being Hell bound. You want to turn His message into a message of hate and bigotry. That is precisely what Galations 1:6 is referring to.

As to Colossians 1:20, you misquoted, that is some other verse. I’ll quote it below, but address the text that you posted here.

If you had ever tried to minister to atheists and intellectuals then you would know what Paul is talking about. They play definition games, twisting meanings and assuming their own conclusions to come up with any conclusion they want on a philosophical topic. But instead of applying this statement about worldly atheistic Greek sophism in the manner it was intended, you apply it to liberal theology. You are doing exactly what Paul is riling against by twisting his meaning to something completely different from what he was talking about. That is precisely what intellectually dishonest people, like the Greek sophist, do when arguing. They don't even know they are being dishonest, they think that this kind of manipulation of meaning is perfectly valid. It is only by treating the Bible the way a Greek sophist treated philosophy that you can fabricated a gospel of bigotry and hate.

Here is what that verse actually says:
And God purposed that through ([q]by the service, the intervention of) Him [the Son] all things should be completely reconciled [r]back to Himself, whether on earth or in heaven, as through Him, [the Father] made peace by means of the blood of His cross. –Colossians 1:20

 

[mike1reynolds]

*raises eyebrow* I'm Protestant. I won't go into my IQ, but it's high. At least half of the university professors that I know are Protestant, and are certainly not pseudo-agnostics. Your premise is incorrect, I fear.

Then why is religious attendence such a small minority and shrinking all the time? Especially in Europe where the IQs are higher.

 

[mike1reynolds]

Melethiel, do you ever listen to A Prairie Home Companion? Garrison Keillor is a Lutheran and makes frequent references to Lutheranism in his comedy skits, portraying them in a very positive light. His portrayals are sometimes quirky and idiosyncratic, but they are always endearing and warm.

 

[Melethiel]

Then why is religious attendence such a small minority and shrinking all the time? Especially in Europe where the IQs are higher.

That is a logical fallacy. There is no way to connect shrinking church attendance in Europe with high IQ. That only applies to Western Europe BTW; in Eastern Europe, church attendance is rising.

And it is only you who is accusing the true Gospel to be one of bigotry. My friends who are atheists don't see it that way, even if they don't believe it.

 

[Lynn73]

Mike, as someone else suggested, I also suggest you carefully and slowly reread the New Testament. You are, indeed, preachng a false gospel here and it very well may be YOU that is going to have to answer for it and for all those you may lead astray by it. I'd be very careful about changing the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ if I were you. I concur with Melethiel, you are calling the true gospel and the God of that gospel to be full of bigotry.

And it doesn't matter how "selflessly loving" atheists are. On the authority of Scripture, they will still go to hell if they continue rejecting Christ, God's only provision for anyone's salvation.

 

[mike1reynolds]

That is a logical fallacy. There is no way to connect shrinking church attendance in

Europe with high IQ.

Who is it who goes and doesn’t go? It is not something arrived at by deduction, there is no logic involved, it is a piece of statistical data.

That only applies to Western Europe BTW; in

Eastern Europe, church attendance is rising.

That is because Communism suppressed religion. It is a rebound effect from suppression.

And it is only you who is accusing the true Gospel to be one of bigotry. My friends who are atheists don't see it that way, even if they don't believe it.

Ask them and liberal Christians (if you know what that is and who they are) specifically whether they would agree with the notion that conviction that all non-Christians go too Hell is an expression of religious bigotry. I would be very shocked if you got a single disagreement. No one calls a spade a spade because everyone is in a fog about spirituality, but if you give people who totally disagree with religious bigotry the proper terms for describing it, they will readily agree.

 

[mike1reynolds]

Mike, as someone else suggested, I also suggest you carefully and slowly reread the New Testament. You are, indeed, preachng a false gospel here and it very well may be YOU that is going to have to answer for it and for all those you may lead astray by it. I'd be very careful about changing the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ if I were you. I concur with Melethiel, you are calling the true gospel and the God of that gospel to be full of bigotry.

And it doesn't matter how "selflessly loving" atheists are. On the authority of Scripture, they will still go to hell if they continue rejecting Christ, God's only provision for anyone's salvation.

If they are overwhelmed with false bigoted distortions of Jesus' teachings then they have not rejected Christ, they have rejected a false gospel.

The definition of bigotry in the dictionary is: being intolerantly convinced of one’s opinion.

Your distortion of the gospel fits the definition precisely. Islam is also a bigoted religion. This is the reason why these are the two most violent religions in the world. That is one of the many factors that turn people off from a false hateful gospel. The True gospel is one of compassion and mercy which you vehemently reject.

 

[Melethiel]

Who is it who goes and doesn’t go? It is not something arrived at by deduction, there is no logic involved, it is a piece of statistical data.

Logical fallacy in terms of debate. Specifically, cum hoc ergo propter hoc. There is no connection between church attendance and IQ.

That is because Communism suppressed religion. It is a rebound effect from suppression.

While true, it has nothing to do with your argument.

Ask them and liberal Christians (if you know what that is and who they are) specifically whether they would agree with the notion that conviction that all non-Christians go too Hell is an expression of religious bigotry. I would be very shocked if you got a single disagreement. No one calls a spade a spade because everyone is in a fog about spirituality, but if you give people who totally disagree with religious bigotry the proper terms for describing it, they will readily agree.

Well, prepare to be shocked. I have one friend who is an atheist and another who is a pagan, and they both disagree with your view that it is bigotry. While liberal Christians may disagree, well, that's why they're liberal. And yes, I know people who are liberals.


And wow, I agree with Lynn73. Not very often that that happens.

 

[mike1reynolds]

Logical fallacy in terms of debate. Specifically, cum hoc ergo propter hoc. There is no connection between church attendance and IQ.

Ok, statically speaking, they are college graduates and especially people with post-graduate degrees. Admittedly, this is not specifically IQ, but there is a strong correlation.

While true, it has nothing to do with your argument.

You posed that as a counter trend to the creeping demise of spirituality in the West, and it is not. Or rather, it is only temporary. As soon as an equilibrium is reached and all significant traces of the former ideological suppression are gone, the trend will reverse.

Well, prepare to be shocked. I have one friend who is an atheist and another who is a pagan, and they both disagree with your view that it is bigotry.

You asked them just now? If so, what did you ask?

And wow, I agree with Lynn73. Not very often that that happens.

What do you usually disagree about if you agree that all non-Christians go to Hell? That seems like pretty substantial agreement to me.

 

[The thinker]

I haven't really read much of this thread, I just want to quickly post my opinion on the OP's question:

I think God will judge all people righteously.There will be a stricter judgment for those who have rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ than those who have never heard.Paul says that those who follow the law (e.g. Jews) will be judged by the law. The people who have never heard of the law are judged by the law of God which He has placed into their hearts:


"For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:14-16)"

"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, shall receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. And from everyone who has been given much shall much be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more. (Luke 12:47-48)"


But then the question is: do those who act in relative accordance with the law but don't hear the gospel still go to hell but recieve a less harsh punishment, or do they go to heaven?

I believe that God, knowing every hair on your head and being outside of time, knows every soul well enough to know if they would have become believers if they had heard the gospel.

Just my two cents...
-WWC

 

[mike1reynolds]

Lynn, BarbB, and Melethiel, do you think that Martin Luther King was preaching a false gospel?

 

[Melethiel]

Ok, statically speaking, they are college graduates and especially people with post-graduate degrees. Admittedly, this is not specifically IQ, but there is a strong correlation.

Are you familiar with the fallacy of cum hoc ergo propter hoc? It literally means "with this, therefore because of this". Just because people in Europe may have a high IQ and they might be attending church less frequently, does not mean there is a cause and effect scenario.

You posed that as a counter trend to the creeping demise of spirituality in the West, and it is not. Or rather, it is only temporary. As soon as an equilibrium is reached and all significant traces of the former ideological suppression are gone, the trend will reverse.

You have no proof of that. Historically speaking, it goes in cycles. A few hundred years from now you may have Europe being very religious. History repeats itself.

You asked them just now? If so, what did you ask?

Showed them your posts.

What do you usually disagree about if you agree that all non-Christians go to Hell? That seems like pretty substantial agreement to me.

I make no pronouncements about anyone's fate; that is for God to judge. However, we do agree that you are not giving an accurate representation of the Gospel.

 

[mike1reynolds]

Showed them your posts.

Did you ask anyone the specific question: Is belief that all non-Christians go too Hell a form of religious bigotry?

It doesn’t sound like it. It sounds like you gave them reams of paper and asked them a question that has nothing to do with the assertion.

I make no pronouncements about anyone's fate; that is for God to judge. However, we do agree that you are not giving an accurate representation of the Gospel.

Then why do you have such a strong conviction that calling this bigotry is preaching a false gospel?

I think that you have a misunderstanding about what is being debated here. You have bought into Lynn’s misrepresentation of my argument so much so that you don’t really have any idea of what it is that I am actually saying.

Are you familiar with the fallacy of cum hoc ergo propter hoc? It literally means "with this, therefore because of this". Just because people in

Europe may have a high IQ and they might be attending church less frequently, does not mean there is a cause and effect scenario.

There is strong correlation, both in Europe and America, this is incontrovertible. Whether or not it is a cause and effect relationship is irrelevant to this incontrovertible fact (although the argument that there is no cause and effect relationship is weak).

You have no proof of that. Historically speaking, it goes in cycles. A few hundred years from now you may have

Europe being very religious. History repeats itself.

There is no proof of anything outside of mathematics, but the evidence is quite strong. It is a unanimous trend in all industrial nations except former Soviet countries. You can’t go below zero, so that fact that it isn’t going down there is not evidence of very much.

(Goodness, this board certainly chops up quotes on me. I can’t prevent it from inserting quote breaks in the middle of sentences, no mater how much I take them out.)