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Do Dinosaurs Prove that Death Existed Before the Fall?

WarriorAngel

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I am theist evolution BUT in the Douay Rheims

Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. 2 And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters.

Verse 1 - Time is not yet needed nor defined.

Verse 2 -
Creatures likely existed but they were now void. [I used to read my grandmothers Bible and it was old it said waste and void]

English language maybe universal but it pales for translation.
 
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Diamond72

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Time is not yet needed nor defined.
In the Beginning means the beginning of time. The beginning was in the smallest amount of time that the laws of Physics will allow. This also has to do with The Second Law of Thermodynamics that the state of entropy of the entire universe, as an isolated system, will always increase over time.
 
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WarriorAngel

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In the Beginning means the beginning of time. The beginning was in the smallest amount of time that the laws of Physics will allow. This also has to do with The Second Law of Thermodynamics that the state of entropy of the entire universe, as an isolated system, will always increase over time.
God is not rendered to time.
When he created He did so outside of time which came after the fall because eternity is timelessness.
 
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Diamond72

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The new man, new creation They said ... Let us make man to our image and likeness:
[Adam means mankind]
Eve the mother of all.
Adam means mankind in Chapter one. Adam was a real man because we have the genealogy's. Adam does represent humanity when we are told that Women or Eve came from his side. If you accept theistic evolution, science and how the sexes evolved. Sex is usually the only chapter in the Biology book that everyone reads.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Adam means mankind in Chapter one. Adam was a real man because we have the genealogy's. Adam does represent humanity when we are told that Women or Eve came from his side. If you accept theistic evolution, science and how the sexes evolved. Sex is usually the only chapter in the Biology book that everyone reads.
Well I am not being technical, yes I am, hehe
But you said sex with algae was in the Bible.

So I don't know your thought patterns.
I really am not interested in the biology book I studied MA and did fine.

Adam and Eve are one breath of life, they are one.
Like the Almighty Creator.

Interesting how the Talmud has kept Bashert a living tradition.
 
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Diamond72

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God is not rendered to time.
When he created He did so outside of time which came after the fall because eternity is timelessness.
God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. If we ask for healing, He does not heal the memory. He goes back in time to the event to bring about the healing we need. Everything in the universe is connected past, present and future. They call this entanglement. Some people believe our name was written in the lambs book of life before the foundation of the world.

Moses interceded for Israel, saying, “Please blot me out of your book” (Exodus 32:32), but God responded that He would blot out those who sinned against Him (Exodus 32:31-33; Psalm 69:28; Isaiah 4:3).

Nothing does not exist. From the beginning there was something and the laws of physics to regulate that something.

You could study the word create. To create means to shape, fashion or form. You have to have something to work with.

We can look at what AI says. But I do not know how accurate that is. If you use the hot soup theory then God began with something. Nothing does not exist. We can not find nothing anywhere.

  1. The Hot Soup of Particles:
    • Immediately after the Big Bang, the universe resembled a hot, dense “soup” of fundamental particles: protons, neutrons, and electrons.
    • These particles moved about energetically in a seething, primordial state.
  2. Formation of Hydrogen and Helium:
    • As the universe cooled down, protons and neutrons began to combine.
    • They formed ionized atoms of hydrogen (the simplest element, consisting of a single proton) and eventually some helium.
    • These hydrogen and helium atoms were the building blocks of the early universe.
  3. Beyond Hydrogen and Helium:
    • Over time, the universe continued to expand and cool.
    • Around 380,000 years after the Big Bang, electrons were captured by nuclei, forming the first stable atoms.
    • These early atoms were primarily hydrogen and helium, which remain the most abundant elements in the cosmos.
  4. The Cosmic Symphony:
    • Stars eventually formed from clouds of gas around 150–200 million years after the Big Bang.
    • Within these stars, heavier elements like carbon, oxygen, and iron were synthesized through nuclear fusion.
    • Stellar explosions called supernovae scattered these elements throughout the universe.
  5. The Dark Matter Mystery:
    • While stars and galaxies make up only a small fraction (about 4%) of the universe, an intriguing mystery remains.
    • Approximately 26% of the universe consists of an enigmatic substance called dark matter.
    • Unlike visible matter, dark matter doesn’t emit light; its presence is inferred through gravitational effects.
In summary, the early universe began with a hot, bustling mix of particles, gradually giving rise to hydrogen and helium. The cosmic symphony of elements unfolded over billions of years, shaping the vast cosmos we observe today12
 
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WarriorAngel

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I'm trying to figure out if we're debating.
Or you're trying to agree.
I'm tired.

The God Lord said - and there it was.
Despite the mix He formed in His mind to put it together...
Our minds cannot comprehend His mind.
Nor can anyone exceed or supercede.
 
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Diamond72

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But you said sex with algae was in the Bible.
Usually I say pond scum but I get called on that also. This was the beginning of recombination. You may not want to call that sex if you are going to spit hairs. Recombination is a fundamental aspect of sexual reproduction.

The Bible verse we are talking about is Genesis 2:22. Everyone wants to use the word rib but Eve or the Women came from the side of man. I then use Theistic Evolution to talk about science and HOW God made male and female, man and women. So this is a marriage, pun intended between TE and Genesis 2:22. YEC, OEC have a different story to tell.

The Bible uses the metaphor of marriage to describe the relationship between Jesus Christ and the Church or the Bride.
 
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Diamond72

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I'm trying to figure out if we're debating.
Or you're trying to agree.
I actually am trying to figure out WHY God made male and female, man and women. No one else seems to ask that question. But this is a big, huge part of our lives is that we share everything we have with our marriage partner. Then God gives men and women a desire for each other. Then they are told they have to control themselves and only express that desire in Holy Matrimony.

The whole thing is wild and crazy to me. Although kids start to make more sense. The world talks about Porn but the Rabbi talk about intimacy between a man and a women. People just do not think about this and talk about this on the level of TE and the Bible.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Usually I say pond scum but I get called on that also. This was the beginning of recombination. You may not want to call that sex if you are going to spit hairs. Recombination is a fundamental aspect of sexual reproduction.

The Bible verse we are talking about is Genesis 2:22. Everyone wants to use the word rib but Eve or the Women came from the side of man. I then use Theistic Evolution to talk about science and HOW God made male and female, man and women. So this is a marriage, pun intended between TE and Genesis 2:22. YEC, OEC have a different story to tell.

The Bible uses the metaphor of marriage to describe the relationship between Jesus Christ and the Church or the Bride.
You may be more prone to the flesh... but I did say this is a Bashert aka a twin soul which is one.
Remember pre-fall all was spirit.
As Jesus said - in Heaven there is no giving in marriage or anything like the flesh including sex.
 
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WarriorAngel

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I actually am trying to figure out WHY God made male and female, man and women. No one else seems to ask that question. But this is a big, huge part of our lives is that we share everything we have with our marriage partner. Then God gives men and women a desire for each other. Then they are told they have to control themselves and only express that desire in Holy Matrimony.

The whole thing is wild and crazy to me. Although kids start to make more sense. The world talks about Porn but the Rabbi talk about intimacy between a man and a women. People just do not think about this and talk about this on the level of TE and the Bible.
Bible says He wanted them like Him.
They [The Creator] are ONE.
Eve was not breathed into - the breath of life - but shared from Adam.
They were spirit.

Then the fall - then flesh.

Why did the Lord make any creature because HE is an over abundance of LOVE that is life giving and giving. And giving. etc
He is love and Love shares.
 
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Diamond72

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WarriorAngel

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I have can give you a list of 100 scriptures that talk about having the Mind of Christ.

For example Colossian's 3:12

11Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, or free, but Christ is all and is in all. 12Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, clothe yourselves with hearts of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience.
Well scripture says who can counsel the Lord, Who could know His mind? Basically saying it is not possible.
But we should behave as Jesus wants us to.
Again, evil would not be evil if they could be like the Lord.

I am so tired.
This is why OBOB is not a debate area.
In fact, it is not allowed at all.
I just don't have the energy either tbh.

Anyway that scripture is out of context.
You cannot take pieces of scripture that glaringly contradict the rest of scriptures... but must learn it in context.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Ok, tks, that give me something to study and work on understanding.
Do not think of the Creation in context of the flesh til after the fall.

He took the woman from the rib - but nowhere does it say He breathed life into her.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Diamond72

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He took the woman from the rib - but nowhere does it say He breathed life into her.
I would prefer to translate the Bible myself from the Hebrew. In this verse there are 40 scriptures where the word "rib" is translated "side". When we use the word "side" then this matches theistic evolution. Rib works in that it is possible because of the bone marrow in the rib does contain the DNA we would need. But I would prefer to translate the word "side" as it is translated in the 40 others scriptures it is used.
 
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fide

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In the Beginning means the beginning of time. The beginning was in the smallest amount of time that the laws of Physics will allow. This also has to do with The Second Law of Thermodynamics that the state of entropy of the entire universe, as an isolated system, will always increase over time.
Hello Diamond7 - I don't know you, of course, but I wonder where you are trying to go, in this exchange with Warrior Angel. This post of yours includes matters of philosophy, physics (thermodynamics) and tangentially theology. I don't hear (supernatural) faith in it (no offense intended) - but I am wondering if there (supernatural faith) is precisely where you are trying to go. I hope so! Only in holy faith is the truth we were created to seek - and find.

"In the Beginning means the beginning of time." My sense is that the order of things in Scripture reflects the logical sense, not the chronological sense - which is for our sake, to facilitate understanding the presences of things created. God could have used no sequence of parts, and instead He could have created the whole in one instant act. My point is, God seeks our seeking, if only we will look rightly. "Wrongly" means, seeking with man-made presuppositions that intend to minimize or even eliminate the One Actor - God - Who created all that (for now) is.

"The laws of physics" are not the same as the unchanging Laws of God. I note you capitalized "Physics". Some do believe in science as if it were infallible and eternal, neither of which it is. Physics is limited in what it can predict - it is bounded by uncertainty, as quantum physics discovered. Physics has launched into a dangerous phase, when it unofficially forbade allowing the notion of "God" into its probe for truth, in this creation.

"The Second Law of Thermodynamics ... the state of entropy of the entire universe, as an isolated system, will always increase over time." This for all practical purposes, for now, does describe the second law, but better would be, "The entropy of this entire Creation, if isolated, will either remain constant (in any reversible process), or will increase (in any irreversible process).

The reality of God embraces this "law" importantly. God is Present in every "place" of His Creation, yet not part of it. He created the natural; He IS above it, supernatural and spiritual. Jesus (and His mother Mary) are now "in" a new reality, a new creation. He, and she, can come into this fallen creation when God the Holy Trinity wills, in God's mercy. He wills our salvation still, stubborn as we continue to be.

My point is, the "law of entropy" is not a god. God can freeze or even reverse and decrease entropy as He wills. For example, the miracles of Jesus even before the Resurrection. The Resurrection itself into Glory, in His glorious incorruptible Body, is a forseeing into the resurrection of all, in the end, in new and eternal bodies raised from the dead. There is a liar and the father of lies, satan, who would have the whole world "believe in entopy" as if it were the eternal and infallible truth - it is not. It is death - a timeline to cosmic and universal death, all music to the "ears" of satan the lord of lies and death.

We must ever more deeply understand the fall into the lie of satan in the Garden, as a human reality - i.e. in us! And in the humiliation of self-knowledge, of the truth about us and lies in us, we must listen and hear that glorious great news of God calling us home in Him.
 
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