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Do creationists not know their own Bibles?

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JackRT

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World ranking bible scholar and historian Karen Armstrong has written The Bible, a biography in which she carefully uses both disciplines to examine both why and how the Bible was created but also how it is interpreted. She carefully points out that virtually all Jewish and Christians scholars throughout history have not taken a literal interpretation. They read it for meaning by "reading between the lines" revealing new understandings generation by generation. The inerrant Bible read literally seems to be a very recent aberration that has found traction mainly in the USA and even then in only a fraction of Christian churches. Her book is an interesting but quite dense a read.
 
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pitabread

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If you don't see the obvious in what I already said, you won't see anything else I say. Bye!

Because it's not obvious. That's why you have to support the claim with something. If you can't support it, then you're reinforcing exactly what I said in the OP (e.g. making a claim that isn't in the Bible).
 
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ViaCrucis

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You mean virtually all Bible scholars haven't taken a literal interpretation?

I believe it was a typo.

Jewish and Christian scholars have, since antiquity, often understood the text non-literally, or at least as having layers of meaning.

An example of this is that Theophilus of Antioch, an early Christian apologist from the 2nd century and the first on record to use the word trias ("Trinity") in writing, uses the days of the creation to speak of the greatness of God, as pointing toward precious divine truths, and also about the vanities of pagan philosophy and mythology. For example, he argues that plants arise on the third day even before there was sun to nourish and sustain them, and this is written that mere creatures--the heavenly bodies--be regarded as preeminent, but are no less mere created matter than the plants themselves. What which is by appearance less glorious (plants) proceeds that which is by appearance more glorious (the sun).

Even as early as Origen in the 3rd century he points out that, from a purely surface level literal reading of the text, that to speak of "evening and morning" prior to there being a sun in the sky makes no sense, concluding that something more important is going on in the text than just a sequence of events.

In rabbinical literature, various rabbis and sages argue things such as when the angels were created, with some pointing to the first day with the creation of the light; which is somewhat similar to St. Augustine's allegorical reading of the text, where the light of the first day are the heavenly angels; for Augustine the six days are more of a framing device, as Augustine understood, from a Latin translation of a passage from the book of Sirach which speaks of God creating all things in an instant.

Augustine in fact argues that all things were made instantaneously, in "seminal form", like seeds, and then developed, or we might even say evolved, into their present forms. Though Augustine also took the position, that a number of Jewish and Christian thinkers did in antiquity, that the days of creation allegorically or spiritually convey the entire period of history--six thousand years, a thousand years corresponding to each day of creation. Though according to Augustine's and other Christian thinkers of antiquity, their chronology had them near the end of the six thousand years--using their chronology the year 6,000 Anno Mundi would have been pretty close to about the time the Western Roman Empire fell. Which, of course, some Christians did feel was evident of the world ending, but then people got over it and moved on, and we don't really see too much of that only six thousand years business too much (or at least, that I'm aware of, it might be there).

Not until James Ussher anyway.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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topher694

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Because it's not obvious. That's why you have to support the claim with something. If you can't support it, then you're reinforcing exactly what I said in the OP (e.g. making a claim that isn't in the Bible).
You mean the way you supported the claims you made in the OP? ooops... nevermind.
 
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pitabread

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You mean the way you supported the claims you made in the OP? ooops... nevermind.

My claim is about what is not in the Bible. Short of quoting the entire Bible to you, I'm not sure what you're looking for here.

Now if you think otherwise, bring something to the table.
 
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topher694

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My claim is about what is not in the Bible. Short of quoting the entire Bible to you, I'm not sure what you're looking for here.
Oh I see that's the standard you are setting for yourself? In that case there is nothing, nada, zilch, zip to support anything you have claimed here. There, all settled now, we can all move on.
 
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pitabread

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Oh I see that's the standard you are setting for yourself?

Well, yes. That's exactly how this works.

The original claim (from the other thread) was that Jesus is a literal 6-day creationist. I responded that there is nothing in the Bible that supports that assertion.

Now if someone wants to support that original assertion and demonstrate otherwise, then they need to present something (e.g. Bible passages) that supports the idea that Jesus is a literal 6-day creationist.

Otherwise, my claim stands.
 
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topher694

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Well, yes. That's exactly how this works.

The original claim (from the other thread) was that Jesus is a literal 6-day creationist. I responded that there is nothing in the Bible that supports that assertion.

Now if someone wants to support that original assertion and demonstrate otherwise, then they need to present something (e.g. Bible passages) that supports the idea that Jesus was a literal 6-day creationist.

Otherwise, my claim stands.
Cool, so can I make unsupported claims then demand others support any assertion counter to my unsupported claim too? Oh, and as an added bonus can I do it and also intentionally not respect others? Or does one need to obtain a certain level of recognition in the art of hypocrisy before they are allowed to make such statements?
 
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Carl Emerson

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Just piecing a few things together...

We lean heavily on dating techniques that in the case of trees in the Pacific near nuclear testing sites present a date in the future !!!

I know this is random but I will keep going.

An issue with the Shroud of Turin is that the dating makes it much younger than Jesus day.

But wait... They say that the shroud image could only have been printed by some radiation effect.

Maybe the act of creation involved some radiation event that seriously skews the dating...

Just sayin...
 
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pitabread

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Cool, so can I make unsupported claims then demand others support any assertion counter to my unsupported claim too?

That's the point: The claim that Jesus is a literal 6-day creationist is unsupported. That's the entire thesis of the thread.

If you believe otherwise and can present support that Jesus was a literal 6-day creationist, then present it. Otherwise, why are you here?

If you just want to argue about arguing then you're wasting our collective time.
 
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pitabread

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Just piecing a few things together...

We lean heavily on dating techniques that in the case of trees in the Pacific near nuclear testing sites present a date in the future !!!

I know this is random but I will keep going.

An issue with the Shroud of Turin is that the dating makes it much younger than Jesus day.

But wait... They say that the shroud image could only have been printed by some radiation effect.

Maybe the act of creation involved some radiation event that seriously skews the dating...

Just sayin...

Er... this has nothing to do with the thread topic. The topic isn't whether the Earth/universe are only 6000 years old or whether dating methods are reliable.

The topic is whether the claim that Jesus was a literal 6-day creationist has any Biblical support.
 
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topher694

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Er... this has nothing to do with the thread topic. The topic isn't whether the Earth/universe are only 6000 years old or whether dating methods are reliable.

The topic is whether the claim that Jesus was a literal 6-day creationist has any Biblical support.
No that can't be the topic... You already told everyone unequivocally that the Bible does not support that at all, without any support... or respect. So how could that be the topic? I thought the topic was just you being right and letting the rest of us know that fact. So, thanks for that.

Anyway, I think I've made my point. If you want to go ahead and continue trolling Christians you disagree with, have at it. Enjoy. Hope it makes you feel good.
 
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pitabread

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No that can't be the topic... You already told everyone unequivocally that the Bible does not support that at all, without any support...

Yes, I said the Bible doesn't support the claim that Jesus in a literal 6-day creationist. IOW, it's an unsupported claim. I have no idea why creationists think Jesus was a literal 6-day creationist, but it's certainly not because the Bible says so.

If you believe otherwise, then present it.

I notice that in all of your posts in this thread, not once have you tried to support the idea that Jesus was a literal 6-day creationist. Instead, you would rather argue about arguing.
 
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eleos1954

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Speedwell

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No that can't be the topic... You already told everyone unequivocally that the Bible does not support that at all...
So you agree? You are just going to let some atheist claim that there is no biblical support that Jesus believed the most important thing about the Bible? You're not going to refute it?
 
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