Do Catholics Deny Imputation?

[redleghunter]

Because they're different things. That's why they're spelled differently from each other.

Good one . That made me smile.

 

[Afra]

Most Roman Catholics do adhere to substitution do they not?

I don't know about that. The Catholic Church does not have any dogmatic view of the atonement. My impression is that there are a variety of views among lay Catholics, and that the "satisfaction" (which is substitutionary, albeit in a different way than penal substitution) theory is popular among clergy.

 

[Afra]

Wrath is wrath.

And an apple is an apple, and an orange is an orange.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

You do realise that when people use the word (o)rthodox they may not be necessarily referring the word (O)rthodox right? It is a bit like catholic and Catholic...

It is the PROTESTANT VIEW...it is neither the Orthodox or the orthodox view

 

[redleghunter]

It is the PROTESTANT VIEW...it is neither the Orthodox or the orthodox view

Well it’s the Scriptural view.

 

[Afra]

It is the PROTESTANT VIEW...it is neither the Orthodox or the orthodox view

There are plenty of protestants who also reject it, FWIW.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Well it’s the Scriptural view.

No it isnt

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Well it’s the Scriptural view.

No it isnt

 

[Afra]

Well it’s the Scriptural view.

You still have not produced one single verse that teaches that our Lord Jesus's personal righteousness is imputed to a believer, so obviously not.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

There are plenty of protestants who also reject it, FWIW.

Probably since protestantism is a free for all theologically with 100s of denominations

 

[redleghunter]

And an apple is an apple, and an orange is an orange.

Well see the point.

“The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.”

Romans 5:
6For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7It is rare indeed for anyone to die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him! 10For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life! 11Not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

 

[Ripheus27]

If God literally (not figuratively; I'll admit a figurative sense!) imputed Adam's sin to everyone else, except Jesus Christ, well, He could have avoided a lot of the problem by not doing so. This notion of Adamic imputation makes it out that God increased the quantity of sin in the world by an unimaginable extent, and THEN imputed it to Himself before punishing it (except He only punishes Himself and unbelievers for it?), magnifying it to an absolutely infinite extent also. Why in the world would God make sin so important to everything there is?

 

[redleghunter]

You still have not produced one single verse that teaches that our Lord Jesus's personal righteousness is imputed to a believer, so obviously not.

You mean “God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God” is not in the Bible?

But alas the entire NT teaches this.

 

[redleghunter]

If God literally (not figuratively; I'll admit a figurative sense!) imputed Adam's sin to everyone else, except Jesus Christ, well, He could have avoided a lot of the problem by not doing so. This notion of Adamic imputation makes it out that God increased the quantity of sin in the world by an unimaginable extent, and THEN imputed it to Himself before punishing it (except He only punishes Himself and unbelievers for it?), magnifying it to an absolutely infinite extent also. Why in the world would God make sin so important to everything there is?

Are the Pauline epistles in your canon?

 

[Ripheus27]

You mean “God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God” is not in the Bible?

This just means that a sinless person was sacrificed so that other people would be able to do good, and since God is the one Who really does all that is good, our actions become part of His (not that His actions become part of us, except subordinately). The whole "not I but Christ in me" thing.

Are the Pauline epistles in your canon?

I don't deny that there are things that sound similar to the idea of literal/federal/w/e imputation, in the text, but on my understanding of the concept of imputation, taking it literally here would make God out to be a liar, and for no reason whatsoever (He lies to Himself by saying that His own (as His Son) good works were actually performed by we sinners, and He says this to Himself to avoid punishing us when He could just as well have avoided predestining us to sin, or imputing Adam's sin to us, or whatever, in the first place).

 

[redleghunter]

Romans 5:

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. 13For sin was in the world before the Law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who did not sin in the way that Adam transgressed. He is a pattern of the One to come.

15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many! 16Again, the gift is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment that followed one sin brought condemnation, but the gift that followed many trespasses brought justification.17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

18Therefore, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20The Law was given so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness, to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Afra]

Well see the point.

“The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.”

Romans 5:
6For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7It is rare indeed for anyone to die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him! 10For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life! 11Not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Sorry. I don't get you. Can you explain the point that you want to make in greater detail?

 

[Afra]

You mean “God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God” is not in the Bible?

But alas the entire NT teaches this.

This does not teach that our Lord's own personal righteousness is imputed to a believer. The text states or implies no such thing.

 

[Ripheus27]

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. 13For sin was in the world before the Law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who did not sin in the way that Adam transgressed.

I'm going to assume that this is not the best translation of the original, because as it stands, it's absurd. The wages of sin is death by law. So if there were no law of any kind, then even if there'd been sin, there'd have been no death. Either that, or we're not talking about imputation in this passage. We're talking about death being passed from Adam to us not because we have his sin imputed to us but as a physical consequence of the alteration of the world (what the Catholic and Orthodox churches teach, if I'm not mistaken).

20The Law was given so that the trespass would increase...

Again, I'm hoping this is a translation issue, because otherwise it's worse than absurd. It amounts to the claim that God designed the world to constantly become more and more evil (even if He fixed the issue later).

18Therefore, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men.

Well, if literally "all men" are condemned through Adam, then literally everyone will be justified by Christ. But then universalism about salvation would be true, unless the sense of "all" here is generic instead of particular (common versus special grace, Calvinism might say). But if the "all" here is generic, that leaves open the possibility that some specific people (besides Christ) were not condemned through Adam (Job comes to mind, or Mary).

 

[redleghunter]

This just means that a sinless person was sacrificed so that other people would be able to do good, and since God is the one Who really does all that is good, our actions become part of His (not that His actions become part of us, except subordinately). The whole "not I but Christ in me" thing.

No that verse does not imply the Work of Christ makes us able to be good enough.