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The ELCA in 1997 also formally accepted the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification. The purpose of this statement is "to show that on the basis of their dialogue the subscribing Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church are now able to articulate a common understanding of our justification by God's grace through faith in Christ" (p. 2). While recognizing that this common understanding "does not cover all that either church teaches about justification," this statement declares that "the remaining differences in its explication are no longer the occasion for doctrinal condemnation" (p. 2). However, these "differences in ... explication" as articulated in this statement itself have to do with such critically important issues as the following:
Whereas, The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America's actions–i.e., the declaration of full communion with three Reformed church bodies while recognizing continuing disagreements between them regarding the understanding of the bodily presence of Christ in the Sacrament of the Altar; and also its adoption of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification which claims a common understanding between Lutherans and Roman Catholics on the sinner's justification by God's grace through faith in Christ in spite of continuing lack of agreement between them on critically important aspects of the doctrine of justification–have significant implications for all Lutherans and other Christians in the United States and around the world; and
- The centrality of the doctrine of justification in its relationship to all other teachings of Scripture (para. 18)
- The Roman Catholic view "that persons 'cooperate' in preparing for and accepting justification by consenting to God's justifying action" (para. 20)
- The relationship between the Lutheran understanding that "the sinner is granted righteousness before God in Christ through the declaration of forgiveness" and the Roman Catholic emphasis on "the renewal of the interior person through the reception of grace imparted as a gift to the believer" (para. 23-24)
- The precise role of faith in justification; i.e., the significance of the difference in the Lutheran understanding that "God justifies sinners in faith alone (sola fide)" and the Roman Catholic understanding which only "sees faith as fundamental in justification" (para. 26-27)
- The compatibility of the Lutheran understanding of "the Christian as a being 'at the same time righteous and sinner' " and the Roman Catholic view that the inclination toward sin in the justified Christian is not really "sin in the authentic sense" (para. 30). It is clear that Roman Catholics and Lutherans have not yet resolved substantive points of disagreement over the doctrine of justification.
Whereas, The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod desires to remain faithful to its commitment to Holy Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions as stated in Article II of its Constitution, even while striving to resolve differences in doctrine with other church bodies; therefore be it
Resolved, That in faithfulness to God's Word and the Lutheran Confessions, and motivated by our love and concern for the people and pastors of the ELCA, we express our deep regret and profound disagreement with these actions taken by the ELCA; and be it further
Resolved, That we encourage all members of the LCMS to commit themselves to engage in theological discussions with the members of the ELCA; and be it further
Resolved, That the LCMS support its President as he continues to work together with the Presiding Bishop of the ELCA in arranging for discussions of these issues between representatives of our two church bodies; and be it further
Resolved, That these discussions address such theological issues as the doctrine of justification, the Lord's Supper, the nature of Lutheran identity, and the appropriate relationships with churches of other theological traditions in today's confusing and changing ecclesiastical landscape; and be it finally
Resolved, That the CTCR be asked to prepare an evaluation of the ELCA/Reformed A Formula of Agreementand the Lutheran/Roman Catholic Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification for use in discussing these issues throughout the Synod.
Then why are you presuming to understand someone else’s religion? I attend a Lutheran Church every Sunday and you think that you understand what we believe better than me?
Good Day, bcbsr
As soon as the Church of Rome denounces this they will be on a good Gospel centered tack.
In Him,
Bill
Catholics don’t believe in the Five Solas of the Reformation. Lutherans believe in justification by faith alone.
Not infused work but infused justice, described by the virtues of faith, hope, and love. These virtues, this justice, is inseparable from the indwelling of the Trinity within the believer, because that indwelling is the cause of justice in man, the only cause. All of this, while a free gift, is opposed to justice being merely imputed. Love is the most important virtue as Paul explains in 1 Cor 13, being the very nature of God that He seeks to transform us into. And love works, for the good of others, by its nature. And God knows when those works are flowing from the right source for the right motivation as per Matt 25:31-46
To put it another way Catholicism teaches that, when a person is justified by God, he's made genuinely just, because that's God's purpose to begin with, to restore justice/righteousness to His wayward creation; He never made man to be a sinner after all. God allowed man to freely fall, and with His help, man can rise up again. God forgives, and cleanses, and restores man to the heights from which he fell, making him a new creation, but doesn't force man to remain there; He doesn't force us to appreciate the gift that's been given.
But as we do appreciate it and continue to walk with Him, our justice actually increases. There's no limit to that potentiality because there's no limit to love, or the righteousness of God. God draws us into greater justice with grace, and the more we're given and the more opportunity we have in life with time, revelation/knowledge, and experience, the more is expected of us. We not only accept the gift, the justification, given, but we confirm and solidify it within ourselves as we participate in achieving it, making our calling and election sure. This is how salvation is worked out with He who works in us. The Parable of the Talents sheds much light on this dynamic.
And in practice, I think a lot of Protestants live as if the above is true, recognizing that what we do, how we continue to respond throughout our lives, counts.
No matter what a group of Lutherans says, Reformed Catholicism and Roman Catholicism are separate communions that have not been able to find enough common ground to celebrate the same eucharist. The main issue in the division is justification.
The word "sanctification" is not there. The word used is justification. It's teaching that works are not simply fruits or evidence but rather are necessary for justification. That's justification by works, which is irreconcilable both with Protestant theology and with Paul's teachings on the matter.
The main difference now days, at least between Catholics and the LWF, is over the structure of the Church and the nature of authority.
In terms of the actual living out our religion, I believe there is a great deal of similarity between Catholics and Lutherans, even moreso than other Protestants. We both believe the sacraments are objective means of grace, which distinguishes us from most protestants. And in many ways, Tolkein's characterization of Protestant theology is more characteristic of American evangelicals than Lutherans.
the video is not playing for me. Could you repost it? or tell me what it says?
It is "are we together? by rc sproul on Vimeo"
for some reason it is not playing for me
"are we together? r c sproul - Yahoo Video Search Results
what does he say?
thanks. I am not reading a book at the moment though. If you thought anything he said went against my op and you want to share, feel free.
According to the new Saint Thomas Institute of Doctor Taylor Marshall, the Council of Trent denied both justification by works alone and justification by faith alone...What Catholic Believe
“Catholics do not have a cultic understanding of God. They know Him as Father, Son and Holy Spirit as revealed in Holy Scriptures, with Jesus the Second Person of the triune Godhead, at one with and equal to the Father, who died for our sins, and who has given us His Holy Spirit.”
-Dr. Bill Bright Founder and President Campus Crusade for Christ International
“That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
-Romans 10 9-13
The Catechism of the Catholic Church CCC will be referenced thorough by bolded numbers. Catholics believe both the new and old testaments of the bible are the word of God. They believe Jesus is the messiah our Savior who died the cross for the sins of the world, was buried, and God raised him three days later. They know him as the son of God in a personal relationship and as Lord.
no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
-1 Corinthians 12.3
"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God"
-I John 5:1
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God
-1 john 4.2
CCC 424 Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.
CCC 1130 In the sacraments of Christ the Church already receives the guarantee of her inheritance and even now shares in everlasting life, while "awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus." The "Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come . . . Come, Lord Jesus!'"
Catholics ask for forgiveness provided by his work on the cross for their sins knowing justification only comes from Christs work on the cross.
"Christ paid that in one fell swoop 2,000 years ago, no more eternal payment of the eternal debt of our sins is needed""
-James Akin the salvation controversy p42
CCC 571 God's saving plan was accomplished "once for all" by the redemptive death of his Son Jesus Christ
They understand God as the tribune God of the bible. Often at a catholic mass the act of faith is stated by all “O my God, I firmly believe that you are one God in three Divine Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; I believe that your Divine Son became man, and died for our sins, and that He will come to judge the living and the dead.” They have faith in that God of the bible that Hebrews 11 says is what saves us [not proper theology]. This is the basic gospel message and what makes one a christian. The Nicean creed [spoke at mass] has been the standard for what constitutes a christian for thousands of years.
Nicean creed
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made. Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
"When you talk about Pentecostals, charismatics, evangelicals, fundamentalists, Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians ... Well they would all say we believe in the trinity, we believe in the Bible, we believe in the resurrection, we believe salvation is through Jesus Christ. These are the big issues."......"Now there's still real differences, no doubt about that. But the most important thing is if you love Jesus, we're on the same team."
-Rick Warren
Important Clarifications
Catholic vs Protestant Definitions of Salvation, Justification, and by Faith Alone
“Protestants and Catholics often talk past each other, failing to precise the ways that the other uses words and phrases...often the two groups are led astray by terminology. They often perceive themselves to be in disagreement when actually they are not.”
-Jimmy Akin the Drama of Salvation how God Rescues you from Your Sins and brings you to Eternal Life Catholic Answers press San Diego 2015
When a protestant talks of salvation we generally mean justification. What puts us as sinners in a right standing with God. We separate sanctification or any sort of works or fruits of our conversion from justification. When we use the term salvation it corresponds to Catholic's understanding of justification. In this way we are in agreement that justification comes by grace alone through faith in Jesus work on the cross. However to Catholics “salvation” also includes what protestants would call sanctification. Since Catholics use a separate definition than do protestants, this leads to confusion and false understandings. Add to that the separate meanings for the term “by faith alone” and separate views of the salvation/justification/ sanctification process as a one time event or past, present, and future, and this clouds the issue further. Along with Catholics distinction of temporal and eternal sins, and there is no wonder for the confusion.
Catholics also use salvation to reefer to temporal salvation [Gen 49.18-19 Ex 14 3-4 DT 23.12 1 sam 12.7 matt 14 28-31 8 23-25 Luke 1 68-71] and thus man can be a temporal savior [ 2 kings 13 4-5 neh 9 26-27 obed 21] and can provide temporal atonement proverbs 16.6. In Catholicism if you help others become saved such as preaching the Gospel you are agents of Christ and in a sense, saviors [Rom 11 13-14 1 Corinthians 7.16 9.22 1 Tim 4.16 James 5 19-20 Jude 22-23] but only god can provide eternal atonement and salvation.
Salvation one Time Event or Past Present and Future?
Protestants view salvation [justification] as a one time past singe event, the time we were saved and converted. We than go through the process of sanctification as we walk the christian life. Catholics definition of salvation includes justification and sanctification. Thus as a past, present, and future process. Or “I was saved, I am being saved, I will be saved.” [ 1 peter 8-9 Phil 2.12 Rom 13.11 1 Corinthians 3.15 5.5 Eph 1.14] ] Because they view their original conversion as one and the same process as the grace that brings about sanctification, there is no separation.
CCC 1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.
CCC 163 Faith makes us taste in advance the light of the beatific vision, the goal of our journey here below. Then we shall see God "face to face", "as he is".So faith is already the beginning of eternal life: When we contemplate the blessings of faith even now, as if gazing at a reflection in a mirror, it is as if we already possessed the wonderful things which our faith assures us we shall one day enjoy.
Are you Saved?
A protestant using his terminology will ask a catholic if they are saved seeing if they rely on works. A catholic who views being saved as the actual future moment God declares them just and they enter paradise , is asking them if they will persevere until the end, something they cannot know with absolute certainty. Catholics see sanctification as a continuation of justification and as such will necessarily give a works response to show the evidence or fruits of grace at work in their lives.The protestant will than walk away thinking the catholic is not trusting in Jesus alone but their own works for salvation and conclude the catholic church is teaching a false gospel. However this is not true, it is a confusion from separate definition on salvation.
“If a Catholic tells a Protestant, “We believe in justification by faith and works,” it will cause the Protestant to believe something about Catholic doctrine that is not true. Remember: Protestants use the term justification to refer to an event at the beginning of the Christian life where God forgives us and declares us righteous. As a result, a Protestant will think that the Catholic is saying that we need to do works in order to come to God and be forgiven. This will confirm his biases against the Church and play into all those stereotypes left over from the Reformation—the ones where Catholics are depicted as holding a false gospel according to which we need to earn our place before God by our own efforts. But the Catholic Church does not teach this. According to Trent, “none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. ‘For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise,’ as the Apostle says, ‘grace is no more grace’” (DJ 8, quoting Rom. 11:6).”
-Jimmy Akin Faith and Works Catholic Answers
Do Catholics Reject by Faith Alone ?
“Man is unable to "justify" himself with his own actions, but can only truly become "just" before God because God confers his "justice" upon him, uniting him to Christ his Son. And man obtains this union through faith. In this sense, St Paul tells us: not our deeds, but rather faith renders us "just". This faith, however, is not a thought, an opinion, an idea. This faith is communion with Christ, which the Lord gives to us, and thus becomes life, becomes conformity with him. Or to use different words faith, if it is true, if it is real, becomes love, becomes charity, is expressed in charity. A faith without charity, without this fruit, would not be true faith. It would be a dead faith.
-Pope Benedict the 16th The Doctrine of Justification: The Apostle's Teaching on Faith and Works
"If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema."
-Cannon 14 Council of Trent Decree on Justification
“The only time the council of Trent's decree on justification quotes James statement that “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone [JM 2.24] is in reference to ongoing growth in righteousness [sanctification]”
-Jimmy Akin the Drama of Salvation how God Rescues you from Your Sins and brings you to Eternal Life Catholic Answers press San Diego 2015
Catholics reject salvation by “faith alone” as a term and from their perspective, a correct conclusion. The term is only used once in the bible and in James 2.24 reads, “a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
“14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” --James 2 12-14
James rejects a mental faith or belief in the truth that does not bear any fruit. A true conversion of the heart and making Jesus Lord of your life will necessarily bear fruit. A mental faith or belief [as even the demons have] without accepting Jesus as savior, does not save, theology, does not save. Trent objected to only the radical elements of the reformation such as a mental faith alone. In fact salvation by “faith alone” had been used by Catholics as various times through history. Catholic apologist Jimmy Akin explains the council of Trents rejection of by faith alone as
“was never applied to all Protestants as a group, and it doesn’t apply to anyone today. The use of the term does, though, imply an authoritative rejection of the “faith alone” formula—when it is used to mean a specific thing. The canon doesn’t say, “If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, let him be anathema.” Instead, it rejects a particular use of the formula, whereby someone “understands that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will.” Trent is therefore concerned to reject “faith alone” when it’s used to say that you don’t need to in any way cooperate with God’s grace, that a merely intellectual faith would save you.And that’s correct. Merely agreeing with the truths of the theology is not enough to be saved. As James puts it: “You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder”
(James 2:17)
So Catholics rightly reject this mental by faith alone. They do not reject a saving faith that expresses itself in Love.
“Christ, and it is he who makes us just. Being just simply means being with Christ and in Christ. And this suffices. Further observances are no longer necessary. For this reason Luther's phrase: "faith alone" is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).”
-Pope Benedict the 16th The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith
“Good works flow from justification they are not something we need to do to get into a state of grace"
-Jimmy Akin the salvation drama
Or the reverse for Catholics.
“Since Sanctification is separated from Justification Protestants correctly say, using their terminology, that Justification is by faith alone – works they do in Sanctification do not belong to (their) Justification.... Catholics do believe in Justification by faith but not in Justification by faith alone, because Catholics understand Justification to be a process, not one-time event.”
-Jimmy Akin Faith and Works Catholic Answers
Always in Catholicism the will is involved, even if it's just the ability to say no to God. Man can't possibly be saved or will the right thing without the movement of God, but man can still say no to God either at the beginning or at any step along the way.According to the new Saint Thomas Institute of Doctor Taylor Marshall, the Council of Trent denied both justification by works alone and justification by faith alone...
Trent. Session 6
Canon I.
If any one shall say, that man may be justified before God by his own works,
whether done through the strength of human nature, or through the teaching of the law,
without the divine grace through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.
Canon IX.
If any one says, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.
According to the new Saint Thomas Institute of Doctor Taylor Marshall, the Council of Trent denied both justification by works alone and justification by faith alone...
Trent. Session 6
Canon I.
If any one shall say, that man may be justified before God by his own works,
whether done through the strength of human nature, or through the teaching of the law,
without the divine grace through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.
Canon IX.
If any one says, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.
That's a whole lot of posting and a whole lot of reading - which, I'm thinking, few will take the time to read.............."Our entire hope of justification and salvation rests on Christ Jesus and on the gospel whereby the good news of God's merciful action in Christ is made known; we do not place our ultimate trust in anything other than God's promise and saving work in Christ...................
That's a whole lot of posting and a whole lot of reading - which, I'm thinking, few will take the time to read.
I'm sure that, for all the words which seem to make salvation come to a person in the Catholic church in the same way as it does fin the simple Protestant faith - very few practicing Catholics see salvation by simple faith in the finished work of Christ as do evangelical Protestants.
In fact, I'm pretty sure that even those high up in the church do not see and subscribe to a simple salvation by faith. In fact, many Catholics were killed by the church for preaching simple salvation by faith.
Take Mother Theresa as a for instance concerning what Catholics believe and practice. Surely she understood what is and is not the Catholic way to salvation as well as anyone you are likely to meet within Catholicism. Surely there are few who practiced their religion more seriously than she.
Yet even at the age of 86 she did not have assurance of her salvation because she did feel that she had done enough to attain it.
Her memoirs show us a woman who lived every Catholic day of her life in absolute misery thinking about at least the Purgatory that awaited her and perhaps even eternal torment away from God because she had not done enough and because she may be lacking some particular sacrament in her last hours. Her religious experience in the Catholic church is likely the saddest state of affairs you could ever encounter in a person who claims to be a Christian.
Again - she likely knew her Catholic doctrine better than anyone here in the forum. Yet she did not have assurance of salvation.
I - on the other hand - and as an example of the simple Protestant view of justification - have complete assurance. I know whom I have believed and I am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have entrusted to Him against the day of judgement.
No matter what you post here and no matter what certain documents say about the Catholic view of justification - I know for sure that it isn't even remotely like my view of justification or the view of a great many other born again Protestants.
I took the time to read it in particular. I didn't mean before that I didn't read your posts at all. But I didn't give them as much time as I did this one you suggested in particualr.I dont disagree, that is why a big post is needed to clarify the many misunderstandings and translate the language. I dont blame you for not reading it but to not read it and make the same misunderstandings that my posts fix, is frustrating on my part. I would suggest for starters looking under Important Clarifications on post 1.
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