Do Catholics and Protestants Differ on Justification?

[Tolkien R.R.J]

I took the time to read it in particular. I didn't mean before that I didn't read your posts at all. But I didn't give them as much time as I did this one you suggested in particualr.

Having said that - it still remains that a woman steeped all her 87 years in Catholic dogma (a woman whom many in the Catholic church consider a saint of the first order) didn't know if she was saved (justified before God) or not. Even as a pillar in the Catholic church - she didn't know the way to get to Heaven and avoid Hell - let alone the way to sanctification or any other kind of "salvation", be it Catholic, Protestant or anything else.

That makes her belief system so different from mine that they can't even be compared one to the other.

Let me just say here that, if Mother Theresa's belief system is any indication, - our two religions are almost diametrically opposed - whether they go by the same name "christian" or not.

IMO - one is faith and the other is - well - God only knows what He considers hers to be.

My apologies I am glad you read more of it. Than your objection is not on justification, but if it is possible to lose ones salvation since justification are the same in both groups. Here I must say some protestants as well do not accept once saved always saved so this is not really a catholic/protestant objection. A few passages protestants who hold this view point to are Matt. 24:13 Rom. 11:22 Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21. There are others of course. One of my favorite protestant [messianic Jew actually] theologians hold the opinion you can lose your salvation Dr Micheal brown.

The Line of Fire

He gave the analogy of faith in Jesus as a train ride to haven. The train will take you the whole way and never kick you off, but you yourself can jump off.


But it is true in one sense Catholics in their mind cannot know in the same way we cannot know, we are fallible, how do we know we are saved? did we actually put our faith in Christ? do we? of course we think we do, but really only God knows.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 7 22-23



CCC 2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"- reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.

 

[His student]

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 7 22-23

I do hope you agree that this passage has nothing to do with losing your salvation. These are people who never had salvation at all. Just so we're clear on that - just as the Lord was.

Here I must say some protestants as well do not accept once saved always saved so this is not really a catholic/protestant objection. A few passages protestants who hold this view point to are Matt. 24:13 Rom. 11:22 Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21. There are others of course. One of my favorite protestant [messianic Jew actually] theologians hold the opinion you can lose your salvation Dr Micheal brown.

The Line of Fire

He gave the analogy of faith in Jesus as a train ride to haven. The train will take you the whole way and never kick you off, but you yourself can jump off.

I know from the scriptures that I cannot jump off any more than someone can kick me off.

We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.

I agree that we cannot rely on either one. All we can rely on is the Word of God.

What it comes down to for many of us is the source of our faith. I believe the scriptures are clear that that faith is from it's "author" - namely God. He Who began a good work in me will complete it. I have His Word on it.

Of course those who don't believe what God says about that must rely on their feelings or their works.

I rely on neither one. I know Whom I have believed and I am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have entrusted to Him unto the day of judgment.

Of course there are those (like Mother Theresa and many or perhaps even most others in the Roman Catholic group for instance) who have never entrusted their salvation to God but have clung all their life to some other thing they or their church have done in this life (baptism, taking the Eucharist, or whatever that may be). That may well apply to a Protestant as well of course.

But I am not one of them.

It comes down to faith I suppose and I have it - God gave it to me and sealed me with His Spirit when I exercised it in a justifying way.

By the way - can you tell me in a nutshell what the point of your several OP's is? Is it that the Catholic view of salvation and the Protestant view of salvation is really about the same?

If it is that - I will say here and now that it sure isn't the same as this Protestant.

There is a reason why so many people who believed and taught as I do were killed by the Catholic church back in the day. That reason is that our beliefs are diametrically opposed on to the other and cannot stand together.

The same can be said for my beliefs and those of some Protestant groups as well - and not just what are commonly known as cults.

Of course, thankfully, no one is burning anyone at the stake now days. But neither will I be associating much with those who preach another gospel - which is really no gospel at all in the view of God.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

I do hope you agree that this passage has nothing to do with losing your salvation. These are people who never had salvation at all. Just so we're clear on that - just as the Lord was.

I know from the scriptures that I cannot jump off any more than someone can kick me off.
I agree that we cannot rely on either one. All we can rely on is the Word of God.

But once more you rely on what you [fallible] "know" while other bible scholars would "know" you can jump off that train. Both view the bible as gods word, but understand passages different as we are fallible and both think we know we are correct. In the same way Catholics would say in some sense they cannot known for certain if they trust on their [fallible] feelings to know if they are justified.

What it comes down to for many of us is the source of our faith. I believe the scriptures are clear that that faith is from it's "author" - namely God. He Who began a good work in me will complete it. I have His Word on it.

As do I and many biblical scholars like Dr Brown.

Of course those who don't believe what God says about that must rely on their feelings or their works.

? you seem to not get what they are saying. You are in fact trusting in yourself that you have put faith in Jesus. Nobody says we are saved by feelings or works. No catholic would say so. They might doubt in fact because they dont trust their feelings or their "fruits" [evidence of faith] not because they dont trust gods word or ability to bring us home.

I rely on neither one. I know Whom I have believed and I am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have entrusted to Him unto the day of judgment.

Still not getting it my friend. You here agree with the Catholics. They do not rely on their felling or works. Catholics would agree 100% with your statements above.

Of course there are those (like Mother Theresa and many or perhaps even most others in the Roman Catholic group for instance) who have never entrusted their salvation to God but have clung all their life to some other thing they or their church have done in this life (baptism, taking the Eucharist, or whatever that may be). That may well apply to a Protestant as well of course.

But I am not one of them.

Agreed. and sadly they are more common in both than God would like.

 

[His student]

You here agree with the Catholics. They do not rely on their felling or works. Catholics would agree 100% with your statements above.

Mother Theresa excluded obviously.

Perhaps she is an anomaly among Catholics. But I seriously doubt it.

Apparently you don't think that it's valid for anyone to say they "know" they are saved and will never come into condemnation. I disagree.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

Mother Theresa excluded obviously.

Perhaps she is an anomaly among Catholics. But I seriously doubt it.

Apparently you don't think that it's valid for anyone to say they "know" they are saved and will never come into condemnation. I disagree.

I am not familiar with her so I cant say, perhaps provide the quote? I go by official catholic dogma rather than a random famous catholic. Many a protestant believes in evolution, that is not biblical but they do believe it.

But I am not sure how else to say it than on my op, you have misunderstood her [and Catholics] in regards to works and salvation. You must be willing to drop your understanding and adopt theirs to see from there perspective, it is very hard for people to do but if you do so you will what they actually believe. I will copy paste some material i think would help next post.


I never said my opinion on it, I gave the proper catholic understanding of it to you. You dont have to agree with it nor do I. But at least we should understand them proper.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

snip

Salvation one Time Event or Past Present and Future?

Protestants view salvation [justification] as a one time past singe event, the time we were saved and converted. We than go through the process of sanctification as we walk the christian life. Catholics definition of salvation includes justification and sanctification. Thus as a past, present, and future process. Or “I was saved, I am being saved, I will be saved.” [ 1 peter 8-9 Phil 2.12 Rom 13.11 1 Corinthians 3.15 5.5 Eph 1.14] ] Because they view their original conversion as one and the same process as the grace that brings about sanctification, there is no separation.

CCC 1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.

CCC 163 Faith makes us taste in advance the light of the beatific vision, the goal of our journey here below. Then we shall see God "face to face", "as he is".So faith is already the beginning of eternal life: When we contemplate the blessings of faith even now, as if gazing at a reflection in a mirror, it is as if we already possessed the wonderful things which our faith assures us we shall one day enjoy.



Are you Saved?

A protestant using his terminology will ask a catholic if they are saved seeing if they rely on works. A catholic who views being saved as the actual future moment God declares them just and they enter paradise , is asking them if they will persevere until the end, something they cannot know with absolute certainty. Catholics see sanctification as a continuation of justification and as such will necessarily give a works response to show the evidence or fruits of grace at work in their lives.The protestant will than walk away thinking the catholic is not trusting in Jesus alone but their own works for salvation and conclude the catholic church is teaching a false gospel. However this is not true, it is a confusion from separate definition on salvation.

“If a Catholic tells a Protestant, “We believe in justification by faith and works,” it will cause the Protestant to believe something about Catholic doctrine that is not true. Remember: Protestants use the term justification to refer to an event at the beginning of the Christian life where God forgives us and declares us righteous. As a result, a Protestant will think that the Catholic is saying that we need to do works in order to come to God and be forgiven. This will confirm his biases against the Church and play into all those stereotypes left over from the Reformation—the ones where Catholics are depicted as holding a false gospel according to which we need to earn our place before God by our own efforts. But the Catholic Church does not teach this. According to Trent, “none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. ‘For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise,’ as the Apostle says, ‘grace is no more grace’” (DJ 8, quoting Rom. 11:6).”
-Jimmy Akin Faith and Works Catholic Answers


Do Catholics Reject by Faith Alone ?

“Man is unable to "justify" himself with his own actions, but can only truly become "just" before God because God confers his "justice" upon him, uniting him to Christ his Son. And man obtains this union through faith. In this sense, St Paul tells us: not our deeds, but rather faith renders us "just". This faith, however, is not a thought, an opinion, an idea. This faith is communion with Christ, which the Lord gives to us, and thus becomes life, becomes conformity with him. Or to use different words faith, if it is true, if it is real, becomes love, becomes charity, is expressed in charity. A faith without charity, without this fruit, would not be true faith. It would be a dead faith.
-Pope Benedict the 16th The Doctrine of Justification: The Apostle's Teaching on Faith and Works

"If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema."
-Cannon 14 Council of Trent Decree on Justification

“The only time the council of Trent's decree on justification quotes James statement that “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone [JM 2.24] is in reference to ongoing growth in righteousness [sanctification]”
-Jimmy Akin the Drama of Salvation how God Rescues you from Your Sins and brings you to Eternal Life Catholic Answers press San Diego 2015

Catholics reject salvation by “faith alone” as a term and from their perspective, a correct conclusion. The term is only used once in the bible and in James 2.24 reads, “a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

“14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” -
-James 2 12-14

James rejects a mental faith or belief in the truth that does not bear any fruit. A true conversion of the heart and making Jesus Lord of your life will necessarily bear fruit. A mental faith or belief [as even the demons have] without accepting Jesus as savior, does not save, theology, does not save. Trent objected to only the radical elements of the reformation such as a mental faith alone. In fact salvation by “faith alone” had been used by Catholics as various times through history. Catholic apologist Jimmy Akin explains the council of Trents rejection of by faith alone as

“was never applied to all Protestants as a group, and it doesn’t apply to anyone today. The use of the term does, though, imply an authoritative rejection of the “faith alone” formula—when it is used to mean a specific thing. The canon doesn’t say, “If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, let him be anathema.” Instead, it rejects a particular use of the formula, whereby someone “understands that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will.” Trent is therefore concerned to reject “faith alone” when it’s used to say that you don’t need to in any way cooperate with God’s grace, that a merely intellectual faith would save you.And that’s correct. Merely agreeing with the truths of the theology is not enough to be saved. As James puts it: “You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder”
(James 2:17)

So Catholics rightly reject this mental by faith alone. They do not reject a saving faith that expresses itself in Love.

“Christ, and it is he who makes us just. Being just simply means being with Christ and in Christ. And this suffices. Further observances are no longer necessary. For this reason Luther's phrase: "faith alone" is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).”
-Pope Benedict the 16th The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith

“Good works flow from justification they are not something we need to do to get into a state of grace"
-Jimmy Akin the salvation drama


Or the reverse for Catholics.


“Since Sanctification is separated from Justification Protestants correctly say, using their terminology, that Justification is by faith alone – works they do in Sanctification do not belong to (their) Justification.... Catholics do believe in Justification by faith but not in Justification by faith alone, because Catholics understand Justification to be a process, not one-time event.”
-Jimmy Akin Faith and Works Catholic Answers


Works and Salvation a Catholic Understanding

“If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.
-Council of Trent Declaration on Justification Cannon 1

“On the mercy of my redeemer I rely for salvation and on his merits; not on the works I have done in obedience to his precepts, for even these, I fear, a fallacy a mixture will render unavailing, and cause to be rejected.
-Charles Carroll the only Roman Catholic signer of the Declaration

“Christ, not us, is the meritorious cause of our justification.”
-Jimmy Akin the Drama of Salvation how God Rescues you from Your Sins and brings you to Eternal Life Catholic Answers press San Diego 2015


Catholics do no works of merit and cannot merit justification before god. The only “works” they do are cooperation with gods grace he gave to them to sanctify them. This is all a work of God and his grace freely given them and all credit goes to God. However true repentance and conversion will produce good works that God rewards to the believers to eternal life [ Rom 6.22 2 6-7 Gal 6 6-10 Matt 3 8-10].

“It follows, then, dearly beloved, beyond all doubt, that as your good life is nothing else than God's grace, so also the eternal life which is the recompense of a good life is the grace of God; moreover it is given gratuitously, even as that is given gratuitously to which it is given. But that to which it is given is solely and simply grace.”
-St. Augustine of Hippo in A.D. 426 or 427

CCC 2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us

CCC 1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48 (1966) Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49

CCC 2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

CCC 2092 There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God's almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit).

CCC 2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

2009...Our merits are God’s gifts.”

CCC 2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, “since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:”50 (490)Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.

CCC 2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.

CCC 1430 Jesus' call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, "sackcloth and ashes," fasting and mortification, but at the conversion of the heart, interior conversion. Without this, such penances remain sterile and false; however, interior conversion urges expression in visible signs, gestures and works of penance.

2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

CCC 1828 The practice of the moral life animated by charity gives to the Christian the spiritual freedom of the CCC children of God. He no longer stands before God as a slave, in servile fear, or as a mercenary looking for wages, but as a son responding to the love of him who "first loved us":106

If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.
2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit. (306, 155, 970)


1700 With the help of grace they grow in virtue , avoid sin, and if they sin they entrust themselves as did the prodigal son1 to the mercy of our Father in heaven . In this way they attain to the perfection of charity

Also see CCC 1695 1687

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

This was added after i responded to the first part.

It comes down to faith I suppose and I have it - God gave it to me and sealed me with His Spirit when I exercised it in a justifying way.

Says who? you do, you are fallible.

CCC 2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, “since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:”50 (490)Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.

By the way - can you tell me in a nutshell what the point of your several OP's is? Is it that the Catholic view of salvation and the Protestant view of salvation is really about the same?

To correct false ideas of Catholics that protestants have about catholic theology on works and justification. And yes that justification [not salvation] are the same.

If it is that - I will say here and now that it sure isn't the same as this Protestant.

True. I am trying to help you have a correct understanding of what Catholics believe, you are not allowing me. Even when you agree 100% with them, you think you disagree.

There is a reason why so many people who believed and taught as I do were killed by the Catholic church back in the day. That reason is that our beliefs are diametrically opposed on to the other and cannot stand together.

The same can be said for my beliefs and those of some Protestant groups as well - and not just what are commonly known as cults.

On Justification? great show me. With a proper understanding of catholic theology on justification. Rather history is more complicated and has much to do with power authority [of the church/ rome etc] rather than disagreements on justification. Than both sides killed each other [once more usually over state power and authority] and spread falsehoods and lies, and they are still with us today. One we protestants carry is that Catholics teach false salvation by works. We just seem to refuse the truth on this issue at times.

Of course, thankfully, no one is burning anyone at the stake now days. But neither will I be associating much with those who preach another gospel - which is really no gospel at all in the view of God.

Great, Me either. Good thing Catholics teach justification by Christ alone. In fact i made pages on a forum somewhere that goes in depth explaining this. Here is a small taste


“All who claim the title "Christian" will be able to agree on the following two truths: salvation is by grace alone (Ephesians 2:8) and salvation is through Christ alone (Acts 4:12). These biblical facts will be our foundation as we explain the teaching of the Catholic Church. ...The Catholic Church has never taught we "earn" our salvation. It is an inheritance (Galatians 5:21), freely given to anyone who becomes a child of God (1 John 3:1)
-Sal Ciresi catholic writer

CCC 618 Apart from the cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven.

CCC 1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself. Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ

CCC 1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.
CCC 617 The Council of Trent emphasizes the unique character of Christ's sacrifice as "the source of eternal salvation" and teaches that "his most holy Passion on the wood of the cross merited justification for us." And the Church venerates his cross as she sings: "Hail, O Cross, our only hope."
CCC 161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation."Since "without faith it is impossible to please (God) " and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"

CCC 2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us

“it is the central work of god who was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, all we have to do is accept it and receive it"
-William E Rabior Find forgiveness acsw catholic pamphlet p 15

“Lord Jesus Christ...merited justification for us by his most holy passion on the wood of the cross.”
-Council of Trent Decree on Justification chapter 7

 

[His student]

Remember: Protestants use the term justification to refer to an event at the beginning of the Christian life where God forgives us and declares us righteous

Right on.

A catholic who views being saved as the actual future moment God declares them just and they enter paradise , is asking them if they will persevere until the end, something they cannot know with absolute certainty. Catholics see sanctification as a continuation of justification and as such will necessarily give a works response to show the evidence or fruits of grace at work in their lives.

Right – they do not believe that we have been saved which is the Biblical picture.

One example will suffice. I won’t get into a lengthy cut and past war with you on this. Even Ray Charles could see that the idea of salvation is not the same for Catholics as it is for me. Mother Theresa could definitely see the difference and it drove her pretty much mad.

“even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:5-7

“Since Sanctification is separated from Justification Protestants correctly say, using their terminology, that Justification is by faith alone – works they do in Sanctification do not belong to (their) Justification.... Catholics do believe in Justification by faith but not in Justification by faith alone, because Catholics understand Justification to be a process, not one-time event.”

Because Catholics do not believe what the scriptures say about justification being a past event and our position in Christ being a present and eternal state.

2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

Right- as I said – they do not believe what the scriptures say about justification being a past event and our position in Christ being a present and eternal state.

His student said: ↑

It comes down to faith I suppose and I have it - God gave it to me and sealed me with His Spirit when I exercised it in a justifying way.

Says who? you do, you are fallible. .

No – the scriptures do and they are not fallible. I believe them. It’s called saving faith.

I am trying to help you have a correct understanding of what Catholics believe, you are not allowing me. Even when you agree 100% with them, you think you disagree.

I know that they do not believe that they have been saved by grace and are now residing eternally in a state wherein they are on the throne with their Lord. You have said as much and all the fancy words in your posts can not undo that fact.

Our view of salvation (in the most basic sense of the word) is totally different. Their doctrine concerning Purgatory, if nothing else, tells me that.

Great, Me either. Good thing Catholics teach justification by Christ alone. In fact i made pages on a forum somewhere that goes in depth explaining this

They can “teach” whatever they want and you and cut and paste whatever you want and it will not change the fact that our beliefs concerning salvation are completely different when push comes to shove (i.e. when it comes to seeing ourselves seated with Christ in Heaven and ruling in the Kingdom of God from there - right now).

Look - I don't believe for a moment that you are "non denominational" as you say. You obviously have an agenda to convince Protestants that there really isn't any appreciable difference between our view of salvation and that of the Roman Catholic Church.

John Hus, John Wycliffe, William Tyndale, Mother Theresa and I disagree with you and no amount of cut and pasted material is going to change that.

Since I seem to be the one you are currently addressing on this thread with your propaganda - I'll pull the plug on our communication now so that perhaps and hopefully your venue will shrivel on the vine and die.

 

[Gr8Grace]

James rejects a mental faith or belief in the truth that does not bear any fruit.

Boy oh boy, all those walls of text and it takes ONE sentence to see what you are REALLY saying.

You do know that 99.9% percent of believers are going to agree with you. It's the semantics that they will 'appear to disagree.'

catholic, reformed and armins.<<<<<<<ALL the same, just different wording.


Freegrace, Acts 16:31,John 3:16,is very close to obsolete and UNKNOWN in this satanic world........Which is what we are warned about.

2 Tim 4:3~~New American Standard Bible
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

And those teachers will PIT James against Paul.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

“Protestants and Catholics often talk past each other, failing to precise the ways that the other uses words and phrases...often the two groups are led astray by terminology. They often perceive themselves to be in disagreement when actually they are not.”
-Jimmy Akin the Drama of Salvation how God Rescues you from Your Sins and brings you to Eternal Life Catholic Answers press San Diego 2015

Right on.

Right – they do not believe that we have been saved which is the Biblical picture.

One example will suffice. I won’t get into a lengthy cut and past war with you on this. Even Ray Charles could see that the idea of salvation is not the same for Catholics as it is for me. Mother Theresa could definitely see the difference and it drove her pretty much mad.

“even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:5-7

If it was not clear before it is now, you refuse to read what I have posted and refuse to accept what Catholics actually teach and believe. It is sad but I must ask what is the cause of it? why must you refuse to allow Catholics to tell us what they believe? why must only you tell us what they believe especially when it does not match their official theology?


Catholics believe they have been saved, they are being saved and they will be saved. You refuse to acknowledge they term of salvation also includes sanctification. Our term salvation is what they call justification. And as I showed that is a one time past event in Catholicism.


CCC 571 God's saving plan was accomplished "once for all" by the redemptive death of his Son Jesus Christ


Catholic vs Protestant Definitions of Salvation, Justification, and by Faith Alone


When a protestant talks of salvation we generally mean justification. What puts us as sinners in a right standing with God. We separate sanctification or any sort of works or fruits of our conversion from justification. When we use the term salvation it corresponds to Catholic's understanding of justification. In this way we are in agreement that justification comes by grace alone through faith in Jesus work on the cross. However to Catholics “salvation” also includes what protestants would call sanctification. Since Catholics use a separate definition than do protestants, this leads to confusion and false understandings. Add to that the separate meanings for the term “by faith alone” and separate views of the salvation/justification/ sanctification process as a one time event or past, present, and future, and this clouds the issue further. Along with Catholics distinction of temporal and eternal sins, and there is no wonder for the confusion.

Catholics also use salvation to reefer to temporal salvation [Gen 49.18-19 Ex 14 3-4 DT 23.12 1 sam 12.7 matt 14 28-31 8 23-25 Luke 1 68-71] and thus man can be a temporal savior [ 2 kings 13 4-5 neh 9 26-27 obed 21] and can provide temporal atonement proverbs 16.6. In Catholicism if you help others become saved such as preaching the Gospel you are agents of Christ and in a sense, saviors [Rom 11 13-14 1 Corinthians 7.16 9.22 1 Tim 4.16 James 5 19-20 Jude 22-23] but only god can provide eternal atonement and salvation.


Salvation one Time Event or Past Present and Future?

Protestants view salvation [justification] as a one time past singe event, the time we were saved and converted. We than go through the process of sanctification as we walk the christian life. Catholics definition of salvation includes justification and sanctification. Thus as a past, present, and future process. Or “I was saved, I am being saved, I will be saved.” [ 1 peter 8-9 Phil 2.12 Rom 13.11 1 Corinthians 3.15 5.5 Eph 1.14] ] Because they view their original conversion as one and the same process as the grace that brings about sanctification, there is no separation.

CCC 1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.

CCC 163 Faith makes us taste in advance the light of the beatific vision, the goal of our journey here below. Then we shall see God "face to face", "as he is".So faith is already the beginning of eternal life: When we contemplate the blessings of faith even now, as if gazing at a reflection in a mirror, it is as if we already possessed the wonderful things which our faith assures us we shall one day enjoy.


“If a Catholic tells a Protestant, “We believe in justification by faith and works,” it will cause the Protestant to believe something about Catholic doctrine that is not true. Remember: Protestants use the term justification to refer to an event at the beginning of the Christian life where God forgives us and declares us righteous. As a result, a Protestant will think that the Catholic is saying that we need to do works in order to come to God and be forgiven. This will confirm his biases against the Church and play into all those stereotypes left over from the Reformation—the ones where Catholics are depicted as holding a false gospel according to which we need to earn our place before God by our own efforts. But the Catholic Church does not teach this. According to Trent, “none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. ‘For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise,’ as the Apostle says, ‘grace is no more grace’” (DJ 8, quoting Rom. 11:6).”
-Jimmy Akin Faith and Works Catholic Answers

Because Catholics do not believe what the scriptures say about justification being a past event and our position in Christ being a present and eternal state.

Great please support it. I have given official catholic dogma that disagrees with you. I need more than your misunderstandings before i can trust you.


CCC 163 Faith makes us taste in advance the light of the beatific vision, the goal of our journey here below. Then we shall see God "face to face", "as he is".So faith is already the beginning of eternal life: When we contemplate the blessings of faith even now, as if gazing at a reflection in a mirror, it is as if we already possessed the wonderful things which our faith assures us we shall one day enjoy.

Right- as I said – they do not believe what the scriptures say about justification being a past event and our position in Christ being a present and eternal state.

His student said: ↑

It comes down to faith I suppose and I have it - God gave it to me and sealed me with His Spirit when I exercised it in a justifying way.

Once more I need more than your false beliefs about Catholics. Rather I would listen to Catholics themselves tell me what they believe. You have shown yourself not a great source on what Catholics believe.

"Christ paid that in one fell swoop 2,000 years ago, no more eternal payment of the eternal debt of our sins is needed""
-James Akin the salvation controversy p42

CCC 571 God's saving plan was accomplished "once for all" by the redemptive death of his Son Jesus Christ

“Jesus Christ made atonement for us and merited the grace by which we are saved.”
-Ludwig Ott fundamentals of catholic Dogma

CCC 1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself. Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ.

CCC 1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men.


the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

CCC 617 The Council of Trent emphasizes the unique character of Christ's sacrifice as "the source of eternal salvation" and teaches that "his most holy Passion on the wood of the cross merited justification for us." And the Church venerates his cross as she sings: "Hail, O Cross, our only hope."

“it is the central work of god who was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, all we have to do is accept it and receive it"
-William E Rabior Find forgiveness acsw catholic pamphlet p 15

“Lord Jesus Christ...merited justification for us by his most holy passion on the wood of the cross.”
-Council of Trent Decree on Justification chapter 7

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling
-Phil 2.12

And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.
-Rom 13.11

If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
1 Corinthians 13.5

hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
1 Corinthians 5.5

who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritanceAF)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-29221AF" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">until the redemptionAG)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-29221AG" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
Ephsians 1.14

No – the scriptures do and they are not fallible. I believe them. It’s called saving faith.

I believe them 100% as do Catholics. But you dont see that you are relying on yourself, your thoughts, your feeling as to if you are saved. You are fallible.

I know that they do not believe that they have been saved by grace and are now residing eternally in a state wherein they are on the throne with their Lord. You have said as much and all the fancy words in your posts can not undo that fact.

Our view of salvation (in the most basic sense of the word) is totally different. Their doctrine concerning Purgatory, if nothing else, tells me that.

Agreed. That is what I have been trying to say to you.

“Protestants and Catholics often talk past each other, failing to precise the ways that the other uses words and phrases...often the two groups are led astray by terminology. They often perceive themselves to be in disagreement when actually they are not.”
-Jimmy Akin the Drama of Salvation how God Rescues you from Your Sins and brings you to Eternal Life Catholic Answers press San Diego 2015


You now even claim they do not think they are saved by grace. Once more you are a very poor source for catholic doctrine.


“Jesus Christ made atonement for us and merited the grace by which we are saved.”
-Ludwig Ott fundamentals of catholic Dogma

All who claim the title "Christian" will be able to agree on the following two truths: salvation is by grace alone (Ephesians 2:8) and salvation is through Christ alone (Acts 4:12). These biblical facts will be our foundation as we explain the teaching of the Catholic Church. ...The Catholic Church has never taught we "earn" our salvation. It is an inheritance (Galatians 5:21), freely given to anyone who becomes a child of God (1 John 3:1)
-Sal Ciresi catholic writer



CCC 1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself. Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ.


CCC 1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ


“it is the central work of god who was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, all we have to do is accept it and receive it"
-William E Rabior Find forgiveness acsw catholic pamphlet p 15

“Lord Jesus Christ...merited justification for us by his most holy passion on the wood of the cross.”
-Council of Trent Decree on Justification chapter 7

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

They can “teach” whatever they want and you and cut and paste whatever you want and it will not change the fact that our beliefs concerning salvation are completely different when push comes to shove (i.e. when it comes to seeing ourselves seated with Christ in Heaven and ruling in the Kingdom of God from there - right now).

I did not now I was ruling the kingdom of God right know. I am protestant. I thought that was future. It appears I am still on earth to me with a high priest who intercedes for me before God in haven.


Catholics often get in trouble with Catholics for praying to fellow Catholics [saints] in haven at the thrown of God. Besides this thread is on how we become justified before God.

Look - I don't believe for a moment that you are "non denominational" as you say. You obviously have an agenda to convince Protestants that there really isn't any appreciable difference between our view of salvation and that of the Roman Catholic Church.

My agenda is truth. If Catholics agree with us on justification than so be it. You have lied about what other Christians [Catholics] believe and refuse to accept the truth, I would look in the mirror. I have been kicked off many catholic apologist sites for doing the same thing on their sites correcting falsehoods they have about us [mental faith alone saves etc ] so it goes both ways. I seek to bring Christians together not tear us apart. I think that is biblical.

John Hus, John Wycliffe, William Tyndale, Mother Theresa and I disagree with you and no amount of cut and pasted material is going to change that.

Great support it.

“Thus the doctrinal condemnations of the 16th century, in so far as they relate to the doctrine of justification, appear in a new light: The teaching of the Lutheran churches presented in this Declaration does not fall under the condemnations from the Council of Trent. The condemnations in the Lutheran Confessions do not apply to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church presented in this Declaration.”
-JOINT DECLARATIONON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation
and the Catholic Church


Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

Since I seem to be the one you are currently addressing on this thread with your propaganda - I'll pull the plug on our communication now so that perhaps and hopefully your venue will shrivel on the vine and die.

Thanks for the kind words.

Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.
John 3.20

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

Boy oh boy, all those walls of text and it takes ONE sentence to see what you are REALLY saying.

You do know that 99.9% percent of believers are going to agree with you. It's the semantics that they will 'appear to disagree.'

catholic, reformed and armins.<<<<<<<ALL the same, just different wording.


Freegrace, Acts 16:31,John 3:16,is very close to obsolete and UNKNOWN in this satanic world........Which is what we are warned about.

2 Tim 4:3~~New American Standard Bible
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

And those teachers will PIT James against Paul.

some refuse to accept that we agree. They like to fight.

 

[Gr8Grace]

some refuse to accept that we agree. They like to fight.

Correct. It is always interesting and perplexing to watch workers for salvation argue and argue. And they AGREE with you.

Reformed, Armin and catholic......all workers for salvation, yet fight over the semantics and verbiage they each use.

 

[His student]

I believe that I have passed from death to life and that I will never again come into condemnation.

Catholics do not believe that.

To each his own I suppose. All the cut and paste words in the world will not change the fact that Mother Theresa died in terror of what might await her on the other side of this life and I have no such terror.

Regardless of all the words pasted in this thread - I wouldn't trade my religion for hers for all the gold in all the world.

You might tell me that your religion is not the same as hers. Fine - tell me that.

Perhaps I'll see you on the other side of this life and perhaps I won't. Time will tell.

But I don't believe that the Catholic rendition of salvation is a saving faith. I hope I'm wrong.

P.S. - I really don't want to have to put you guys on ignore. That seems silly to me.

But ---- please leave me alone and find someone else to try to convince.

Contrary to what has been charged here - I don't like to fight. If you post to me again - it will be obvious that the feeling is not mutual.

Thanks!

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

I believe that I have passed from death to life and that I will never again come into condemnation.

Catholics do not believe that.

To each his own I suppose. All the cut and paste words in the world will not change the fact that Mother Theresa died in terror of what might await her on the other side of this life and I have no such terror.

Regardless of all the words pasted in this thread - I wouldn't trade my religion for hers for all the gold in all the world.

You might tell me that your religion is not the same as hers. Fine - tell me that.

Perhaps I'll see you on the other side of this life and perhaps I won't. Time will tell.

But I don't believe that the Catholic rendition of salvation is a saving faith. I hope I'm wrong.

P.S. - I really don't want to have to put you guys on ignore. That seems silly to me.

But ---- please leave me alone and find someone else to try to convince.

Contrary to what has been charged here - I don't like to fight. If you post to me again - it will be obvious that the feeling is not mutual.

Thanks!

Neither would any catholic nor Protestant who does not accept the five points of Calvinism mans theology. Anyone who has faith and is justified as Catholics would say is the beginning of eternal life. "I am saved, I am being saved, I will be saved."



You disregard my post as meaningless and yet they come from official catholic dogma. Instead you rely on some version of Catholicism you have created [an idol to reject as false or a straman or both] you claim is based on some quote of some catholic but never provide the source. Yet I am 100% sure your misunderstanding comes from

“Protestants and Catholics often talk past each other, failing to precise the ways that the other uses words and phrases...often the two groups are led astray by terminology. They often perceive themselves to be in disagreement when actually they are not.”
-Jimmy Akin the Drama of Salvation how God Rescues you from Your Sins and brings you to Eternal Life Catholic Answers press San Diego 2015


So while you would not trade your religion [your fallible understanding of Gods infallible word] for hers, neither would Catholics, no they would stick with Roman Catholicism's official beliefs rather than your idol/strawman version of it.


I do not have a religion, Catholicism is indeed a religion and i dont hold to it nor your version. I follow god as best I can through my own understanding of his word and i shall be judged for it. At least I cant blame anyone else. I rely on Jesus's blood alone to be right with God.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Anyone who has faith and is justified as Catholics would say is the beginning of eternal life.

Which Is contrary to HIS word. catholics and most denominations will hurriedly agree to this statement..............because they can twist and turn scripture with this false idea.

The Bible says~~

1 John 5:13~~New American Standard Bible
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24~~New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kinda fly's in the face of 'beginning of eternal life.'

His freegrace is truth.............believe it.

 

[His student]

I believe that I have passed from death to life and that I will never again come into condemnation. Catholics do not believe that.

Neither would any catholic nor Protestant who does not accept the five points of Calvinism mans theology.

Nonsense. Believing this simple Biblical truth has nothing to do with Calvin or any other man's theology. It's the theology of God and it ours to believe or not believe. You obviously do not. As a result I don't believe that you have saving faith. I hope I'm wrong.

1 John 5:13~~New American Standard Bible These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 5:24~~New American Standard Bible "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Kinda fly's in the face of 'beginning of eternal life.'

Right on.

All the cut and paste Catholic propaganda in the world won't change the fact that their way of salvation is not the same as the simple gospel of grace that you and I and millions of other born again Protestants hold to.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Which Is contrary to HIS word. catholics and most denominations will hurriedly agree to this statement..............because they can twist and turn scripture with this false idea.

The Bible says~~

1 John 5:13~~New American Standard Bible
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24~~New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kinda fly's in the face of 'beginning of eternal life.'

His freegrace is truth.............believe it.

Belief is not a one time act. Belief must be CONTINUAL. Throughout your life. Adam and Eve fell from Grace and so can anyone else.

Revelation 17:14.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Highly recommend the book a Catholic perspective on Paul by Doctor Taylor Marshall.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

Which Is contrary to HIS word. catholics and most denominations will hurriedly agree to this statement..............because they can twist and turn scripture with this false idea.

The Bible says~~

1 John 5:13~~New American Standard Bible
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24~~New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kinda fly's in the face of 'beginning of eternal life.'

His freegrace is truth.............believe it.

and no catholic would disagree. You have eternal life with faith. But the walk with God does not stop it continues into eternity. Once more a more careful reading can clear misconceptions. See my op.