Do Catholics and Protestants Differ on Justification?

[Tree of Life]

I must differ with you, as would scholars on both sides who instead of fighting wars from hundreds of years ago, decided to understand each other.

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

Evangelicals and Catholics Together: The Gift of Salvation

No matter what a group of Lutherans says, Reformed Catholicism and Roman Catholicism are separate communions that have not been able to find enough common ground to celebrate the same eucharist. The main issue in the division is justification.

 

[redleghunter]

once more we must understand what he is saying rather than be in debate mode. He is not saying the protestant understanding of faith alone is incorrect.

“Since Sanctification is separated from Justification Protestants correctly say, using their terminology, that Justification is by faith alone – works they do in Sanctification do not belong to (their) Justification.... Catholics do believe in Justification by faith but not in Justification by faith alone, because Catholics understand Justification to be a process, not one-time event.”
-Jimmy Akin Faith and Works Catholic Answers

Yet Justification and Sanctification are not separate but distinct. Just as with Glorification is not separate but distinct from the aforementioned.

There are already two threads on this elsewhere.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

Lol no Luther was human like us. It was just a defining quote on the importance of the issue at hand. Your OP.

Agreed, and so often misunderstood is the reason I addressed it in my first post.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

Are you Lutheran or Roman Catholic?

Neither. Non denominational. But conservative baptist would be closest.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

No matter what a group of Lutherans says, Reformed Catholicism and Roman Catholicism are separate communions that have not been able to find enough common ground to celebrate the same eucharist. The main issue in the division is justification.

Apologies. I am unfamiliar with reformed catholics, this thread is on protestants and roman Catholics.

 

[Tree of Life]

Apologies. I am unfamiliar with reformed catholics, this thread is on protestants and roman Catholics.

A Reformed Catholic is what you call a protestant. The term "protestant" is not a useful way to describe the churches that came from the Reformation.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

A Reformed Catholic is what you call a protestant. The term "protestant" is not a useful way to describe the churches that came from the Reformation.

my bad, i thought reformed was Calvinist.

 

[bcbsr]

From my op.
We separate sanctification or any sort of works or fruits of our conversion from justification. When we use the term salvation it corresponds to Catholic's understanding of justification. In this way we are in agreement that justification comes by grace alone through faith in Jesus work on the cross. However to Catholics “salvation” also includes what protestants would call sanctification. Since Catholics use a separate definition than do protestants, this leads to confusion and false understandings.

But if you actually read the quote I gave from the Council of Trent, it makes no mention of "salvation", but explicitly speaks of justification.

Catholics do no works of merit and cannot merit justification before god. The only “works” they do are cooperation with gods grace he gave to them to sanctify them. This is all a work of God and his grace freely given them and all credit goes to God.

But the quote I gave contradicts that conjecture.

 

[blackhead]

This thread is not on the Five Solas of the Reformation nor did Jesus say you must believe in the Five Solas of the Reformation. As for salvation by faith alone and Lutherans I hope you read my first post, it should clarify much for you. As well as this link.

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

I mentioned the Five Solas because I was mentioning the doctrine of justification by faith alone. If I asked my Pastor he would say that we are not in agreement with Roman Catholics on the doctrine. My church the LCMS is not a part of the World Federation. Lutherans and Catholics are not in agreement on the doctrine of justification by faith alone. Catholics believe in doing works such as confession and penance.

 

[hedrick]

You might want to also include:

SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24). Council of Trent

I would think protestants would take issue with that.

Note that traditional Catholic terminology, going back to Augustine, uses justification for the whole process, including both what Protestants call justification and what we call sanctification. So this is condemning something that Protestants don't actually say.

I think many of the issues go away when we start to clarify what's behind the different words. But they don't all go away. I have to go to work now, but will say more later.

 

[blackhead]

From the LCMS website:

The doctrine of justification.

Lutherans believe a person is saved by God’s grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. The Roman Catholic Church while at times using similar language, still officially holds that faith, in order to save, must be accompanied by (or “infused with”) some “work” or “love” active within a Christian.

Denominations - Frequently Asked Questions - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod

 

[blackhead]

The ELCA in 1997 also formally accepted the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification. The purpose of this statement is "to show that on the basis of their dialogue the subscribing Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church are now able to articulate a common understanding of our justification by God's grace through faith in Christ" (p. 2). While recognizing that this common understanding "does not cover all that either church teaches about justification," this statement declares that "the remaining differences in its explication are no longer the occasion for doctrinal condemnation" (p. 2). However, these "differences in ... explication" as articulated in this statement itself have to do with such critically important issues as the following:

• The centrality of the doctrine of justification in its relationship to all other teachings of Scripture (para. 18)
• The Roman Catholic view "that persons 'cooperate' in preparing for and accepting justification by consenting to God's justifying action" (para. 20)
• The relationship between the Lutheran understanding that "the sinner is granted righteousness before God in Christ through the declaration of forgiveness" and the Roman Catholic emphasis on "the renewal of the interior person through the reception of grace imparted as a gift to the believer" (para. 23-24)
• The precise role of faith in justification; i.e., the significance of the difference in the Lutheran understanding that "God justifies sinners in faith alone (sola fide)" and the Roman Catholic understanding which only "sees faith as fundamental in justification" (para. 26-27)
• The compatibility of the Lutheran understanding of "the Christian as a being 'at the same time righteous and sinner' " and the Roman Catholic view that the inclination toward sin in the justified Christian is not really "sin in the authentic sense" (para. 30). It is clear that Roman Catholics and Lutherans have not yet resolved substantive points of disagreement over the doctrine of justification.

Whereas, The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America's actions–i.e., the declaration of full communion with three Reformed church bodies while recognizing continuing disagreements between them regarding the understanding of the bodily presence of Christ in the Sacrament of the Altar; and also its adoption of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification which claims a common understanding between Lutherans and Roman Catholics on the sinner's justification by God's grace through faith in Christ in spite of continuing lack of agreement between them on critically important aspects of the doctrine of justification–have significant implications for all Lutherans and other Christians in the United States and around the world; and

Whereas, The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod desires to remain faithful to its commitment to Holy Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions as stated in Article II of its Constitution, even while striving to resolve differences in doctrine with other church bodies; therefore be it

Resolved, That in faithfulness to God's Word and the Lutheran Confessions, and motivated by our love and concern for the people and pastors of the ELCA, we express our deep regret and profound disagreement with these actions taken by the ELCA; and be it further

Resolved, That we encourage all members of the LCMS to commit themselves to engage in theological discussions with the members of the ELCA; and be it further

Resolved, That the LCMS support its President as he continues to work together with the Presiding Bishop of the ELCA in arranging for discussions of these issues between representatives of our two church bodies; and be it further

Resolved, That these discussions address such theological issues as the doctrine of justification, the Lord's Supper, the nature of Lutheran identity, and the appropriate relationships with churches of other theological traditions in today's confusing and changing ecclesiastical landscape; and be it finally

Resolved, That the CTCR be asked to prepare an evaluation of the ELCA/Reformed A Formula of Agreementand the Lutheran/Roman Catholic Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification for use in discussing these issues throughout the Synod.

 

[blackhead]

Neither. Non denominational. But conservative baptist would be closest.

Then why are you presuming to understand someone else’s religion? I attend a Lutheran Church every Sunday and you think that you understand what we believe better than me?

 

[blackhead]

https://www.lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=339

 

[BBAS 64]

You might want to also include:

SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24). Council of Trent

I would think protestants would take issue with that.

Good Day, bcbsr

As soon as the Church of Rome denounces this they will be on a good Gospel centered tack.

In Him,

Bill

 

[fhansen]

From the LCMS website:

The doctrine of justification.

Lutherans believe a person is saved by God’s grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. The Roman Catholic Church while at times using similar language, still officially holds that faith, in order to save, must be accompanied by (or “infused with”) some “work” or “love” active within a Christian.

Not infused work but infused justice, described by the virtues of faith, hope, and love. These virtues, this justice, is inseparable from the indwelling of the Trinity within the believer, because that indwelling is the cause of justice in man, the only cause. All of this, while a free gift, is opposed to justice being merely imputed. Love is the most important virtue as Paul explains in 1 Cor 13, being the very nature of God that He seeks to transform us into. And love works, for the good of others, by its nature. And God knows when those works are flowing from the right source for the right motivation as per Matt 25:31-46

To put it another way Catholicism teaches that, when a person is justified by God, he's made genuinely just, because that's God's purpose to begin with, to restore justice/righteousness to His wayward creation; He never made man to be a sinner after all. God allowed man to freely fall, and with His help-only with His help-man can rise up again. God forgives, and cleanses, and restores man to the heights from which he fell, making him a new creation, but doesn't force man to remain there; He doesn't force us to appreciate the gift that's been given.

But as we do appreciate it and continue to walk with Him, our justice actually increases. There's no limit to that potentiality because there's no limit to love, or the righteousness of God. God draws us into greater justice with grace, and the more we're given and the more opportunity we have in life with time, revelation/knowledge, and experience, the more is expected of us. We not only accept the gift, the justification, given, but we confirm and solidify it within ourselves as we participate in achieving it, making our calling and election sure. This is how salvation is worked out with He who works in us. The Parable of the Talents sheds much light on this dynamic.

And in practice, I think a lot of Protestants live as if the above is true, recognizing that what we do, how we continue to respond throughout our lives, counts.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

But if you actually read the quote I gave from the Council of Trent, it makes no mention of "salvation", but explicitly speaks of justification.


But the quote I gave contradicts that conjecture.

Here is the quote


SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24). Council of Trent


So just what are you objecting to as far as original justification? this is speaking of mans corporation with gods grace in sanctification though works [a act of god who alone gets credit] . This is rejecting that works are simply evidence of true faith alone, but that those works than humans do [by gods grace who gets credit alone] cooperating with God plays a role as well in sanctification. Once more keep in mind catholic justification starts with original justification, and continues through sanctification.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

I mentioned the Five Solas because I was mentioning the doctrine of justification by faith alone. If I asked my Pastor he would say that we are not in agreement with Roman Catholics on the doctrine. My church the LCMS is not a part of the World Federation. Lutherans and Catholics are not in agreement on the doctrine of justification by faith alone. Catholics believe in doing works such as confession and penance.

Your pastor is not Christ and likely holds the same common misunderstandings. This is why I made the thread. Please read my first post and get back to me on any comments. It should clear up misunderstandings.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

From the LCMS website:

The doctrine of justification.

Lutherans believe a person is saved by God’s grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. The Roman Catholic Church while at times using similar language, still officially holds that faith, in order to save, must be accompanied by (or “infused with”) some “work” or “love” active within a Christian.

Denominations - Frequently Asked Questions - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod

This is why I made the thread, to clarify false understandings. Perhaps you could site catholic documents like the ones I did to support what they believe or at least Lutherans who have studied Catholicism.

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

 

[bcbsr]

Here is the quote


SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24). Council of Trent


So just what are you objecting to as far as original justification? this is speaking of mans corporation with gods grace in sanctification though works [a act of god who alone gets credit] . This is rejecting that works are simply evidence of true faith alone, but that those works than humans do [by gods grace who gets credit alone] cooperating with God plays a role as well in sanctification. Once more keep in mind catholic justification starts with original justification, and continues through sanctification.

The word "sanctification" is not there. The word used is justification. It's teaching that works are not simply fruits or evidence but rather are necessary for justification. That's justification by works, which is irreconcilable both with Protestant theology and with Paul's teachings on the matter.