Do Catholics and Orthodox rely on private interpretation?

[patricius79]

<< I've read that the Orthodox have moved away from Apostolic tradition about contraception. >>

That's news to me.

<<What is your take, if I may ask, on the issue of contraception?>>

Here's one opinion:

On contraception: “For the Health of Body and Soul: An Eastern Orthodox Introduction to Bioethics: General agreement exists among Orthodox writers on the following two points: since at least one of the purposes of marriage is the birth of children, a couple acts immorally when it consistently uses contraceptive methods to avoid the birth of any children, if there are not extenuating circumstances; contraception is also immoral when used to encourage the practice of fornication and adultery. Less agreement exists among Eastern Orthodox authors on the issue of contraception within marriage for the spacing of children or for the limitation of the number of children. ...Most authors, however, emphasize the sacramental nature of marriage and its place within the framework of Christian anthropology, seeing the sexual relationship of husband and wife as one aspect of the mutual growth of the couple in love and unity. This approach readily adapts itself to an ethical position that would not only permit but also enjoin sexual relationships of husband and wife for their own sake as expressions of mutual love. Such a view clearly would support the use of contraceptive practices for the purpose of spacing and limiting children so as to permit greater freedom of the couple in the expression of their mutual love." http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8076.asp

Father Jim,

I would also like to know if the Orthodox believe that Mary is Immaculate (Sinless). Thanks.

 

[Cappadocious]

Without descending into a circular argument, does this not require a private interpretation of Scripture and Tradition? Does it not rely on the intellect and one's own interpretative skills?

You've asked an epistemological question. This is how I would answer:

Nobody relies on a private interpretation.

 

[Albion]

You've asked an epistemological question. This is how I would answer:

Nobody relies on a private interpretation.

That may be the case and the best way to look at this matter. However, it means that the claim we often hear that some Christians engage in it, while others refuse to...

...is just talk.

It's not true.

 

[patricius79]

That may be the case and the best way to look at this matter. However, it means that the claim we often hear that some Christians engage in it, while others refuse to...

...is just talk.

It's not true.

As a Catholic, I am free to interpret the Scriptures for myself, so long as I submit to the Magisterium of the Church.

 

[Albion]

As a Catholic, I am free to interpret the Scriptures for myself, so long as I submit to the Magisterium of the Church.

Very well, but so long as you defer to anyone else's opinion--the mythical Magisterium included--it can be said that you are following a "personal (or "private" interpretation).

Since that's the case, the claim that there are two types of believers--those who follow personal interpretations AND others who allegedly do not...is false.

 

[patricius79]

Very well, but so long as you defer to anyone else's opinion--the mythical Magisterium included--it can be said that you are following a "personal (or "private" interpretation).

Since that's the case, the claim that there are two types of believers--those who follow personal interpretations AND others who allegedly do not...is false.

Your argument assumes the oral tradition that the Magisterium is "mythical' and that is teaches opinions.

Where does that leave the oral tradition of Sola Scriptura?

 

[Albion]

.

 

[Albion]

Your argument assumes the oral tradition that the Magisterium is "mythical' and that is teaches opinions.

I'm not assuming anything. You say that you adhere to the opinion of the Magisterium but you have no way of knowing what the theoretical "Magisterium" says in any case. Deferring to it is nothing but a claim, not something that actually happens or can happen.

 

[patricius79]

I'm not assuming anything. You say that you adhere to the opinion of the Magisterium but you have no way of knowing what the theoretical "Magisterium" says in any case. .

I have no idea what you are basing this oral tradition on. If I don't know what the Church dogmatically teaches on something, it's easy to find out through authoritative sources like the Catechism.

For example, I know the Church dogmatically teaches that Mary is Immaculately concieved. I can interpret Scripture for my myself, but not deny the Immaculate Conception or any other Church dogmas, such as the N.T. Canon.

 

[Cappadocious]

That may be the case and the best way to look at this matter. However, it means that the claim we often hear that some Christians engage in it, while others refuse to...

...is just talk.

It's not true.

Of course it's not true. Not only is it not true, it's not even theoretically possible.

 

[Albion]

Of course it's not true. Not only is it not true, it's not even theoretically possible.

You say it's not true, and I agree, but it's still one of the most popular accusations voiced on these forums. THAT's really the issue--that there is no truth to it and it cannot (as you said) even be true.

 

[fatherjimparker]

<<I would also like to know if the Orthodox believe that Mary is Immaculate (Sinless). Thanks.>>

The Orthodox Church teaches that God alone is without sin.

 

[patricius79]

<<I would also like to know if the Orthodox believe that Mary is Immaculate (Sinless). Thanks.>>

The Orthodox Church teaches that God alone is without sin.

Thanks, father. I'm confused because I'm not getting consistent answers from Orthodox people. Are you sure that the Orthodox believe that Mary sinned?

 

[prodromos]

Thanks, father. I'm confused because I'm not getting consistent answers from Orthodox people.

How are our answers not consistent?

 

[patricius79]

How are our answers not consistent?

You said that Mary was "blameless". And Father Jim said that only God is without sin.

I just want to be clear on whether the Orthodox believe that Mary ever sinned in some way, or not.

Are you agreeing with Fr. Jim that Mary sinned? If so, in what sense?

 

[fatherjimparker]

<< Thanks, father. I'm confused because I'm not getting consistent answers from Orthodox people. Are you sure that the Orthodox believe that Mary sinned? >>

What the Orthodox Church teaches is that Mary did not get an exemption from ancestral sin (the Western Church calls it "original sin.) and, therefore, was subject to all the temptations common to mankind.

From "Exposition of the Teaching of the Orthodox Church on the Mother of God" by Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov: "Despite the righteousness and the immaculateness of the life which the Mother of God led, sin and eternal death manifested their presence in Her. Such is the precise and faithful teaching of the Orthodox Church concerning the Mother of God with relation to original sin and death."

From St. Ambrose of Milan, "Commentary on the 118th Psalm": "God alone is without sin while man will always have in himself something yet needing correction and perfection in order to fulfill the commandment of God; "Be ye holy as I the Lord your God am holy" (Leviticus 19:2). The more pure and perfect one is, the more he notices his imperfections and considers himself all the more unworthy."

To be sinless is to be perfect and as holy as God. Among mankind, only Jesus fits that description.

We tend to think as sin as lying or committing adultery or stealing and the like. But the failure to do any one of God's commands is a sin, a falling short of the glory of God. Have you ever worried about anything? Jesus told us not to worry. Have you been anxious? Paul said to be anxious fro nothing. Anxiety and worry are the symptoms of not trusting God.

And it is not only the things which we do which are sinful; it is also the things we fail to do which are within our capacity to do. Give food and water to the hungry and thirsty. Give clothing to the naked. Visit and encourage the sick and the prisoner. Pray for those who love us and for those who hate us.

I believe that Mary is most assuredly the most sinless person ever to live, but only God is completely without sin.

 

[fatherjimparker]

You said that Mary was "blameless". And Father Jim said that only God is without sin.

I just want to be clear on whether the Orthodox believe that Mary ever sinned in some way, or not.

Are you agreeing with Fr. Jim that Mary sinned? If so, in what sense?

Please do not take the liberty to quote me as having said, "Mary sinned." That is not quite what I said.

 

[patricius79]

Please do not take the liberty to quote me as having said, "Mary sinned." That is not quite what I said.

I'm lost. I don't understand what you are saying. How can Brianchaninov say that Mary lived an "immaculate life", and then say that "sin and eternal death manifested their presence in her"?

 

[Cappadocious]

I'm lost. I don't understand what you are saying. How can Brianchaninov say that Mary lived an "immaculate life", and then say that "sin and eternal death manifested their presence in her"?

You know how Catholics differentiate between moral and natural evil?

 

[patricius79]

You know how Catholics differentiate between moral and natural evil?

You mean like the difference between something like gluttony and something like having a weak body?