Do atheists believe in objective morality?

[Cabal]

Inherent to what who's standard then? You are comparing it to a litmus test?

Did you miss the part where I said it was essentially uniform?

For humans are intrinsically evil!

According to your standard, but you have still failed to justify it.

God's moral law shows our inherent wrong doing other wise we wouldn't know of wrong doing that we are guilty under and by the likes of God!

And this is tautologous.

 

[allhart]

Did you miss the part where I said it was essentially uniform?



According to your standard, but you have still failed to justify it.



And this is tautologous.

The problem no one sees themselves as evil even Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Fidel, Cha etc! And they where justified in their eyes!

 

[Cabal]

The problem no one sees themselves as evil even Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Fidel, Cha etc! And they where justified in their eyes!

Right - but as I keep pointing out - inherent morality is uniform. A few evil individuals might not consider themselves evil, but the bulk of people will.

And as much as I hate to bang on, trying to point out problems in someone else's basis for morality is not a justification for your own basis for morality.

 

[Fin1234]

Or does being atheist tend to make their beliefs more subjective since there is no God to say what is right and wrong?

I am an atheist, I believe in an objective morality, and I believe that theism ruins the idea of a universal objective morality.

Any questions?

 

[Ayersy]

Personally, I do not believe in an objective morality.

I've always maintained that morality is just a system of control implemented by those in charge. Hence the need for laws. Now I'm not saying that without laws we'd all be killing, raping and stealing, but it's a pretty large incentive for not doing those things.

An individuals morality is largely learned from parents. Even back before we had decent laws, I'm certain that somebody would quickly be shunned from a tribe for hurting his friends of family in any way. It weakens the tribe, therefore it's advisable not to do those things. These tribe members then passed on these rules to their children, and so on, until we get to today. Instead of the leader of the tribe cutting off ones hand for stealing, or banishing one from the village, we get jail, or community service. No different, really.

The reason it's not objective is because different societies have different moral standards, and moral standards have obviously evolved throughout time, as societies have evolved.

 

[allhart]

You can't legislate morality.....You can only regulate how far people can go with their will! You can't make people moral! The moral law is ultimately there to show us we have an inner problem. A immoral deep rooted/seeded problem!

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

You can't legislate morality.....You can only regulate how far people can go with their will! You can't make people moral! The moral law is ultimately there to show us we have an inner problem. A immoral deep rooted/seeded problem!

In your world view. Isnt it god that legislated morality?
Break his laws and recieve the penalty.

At best the only difference is that in mans law you start out innocent, in gods law you start out guilty.

 

[allhart]

In your world view. Isnt it god that legislated morality?
Break his laws and recieve the penalty.

At best the only difference is that in mans law you start out innocent, in gods law you start out guilty.

God gives us Jesus as a gift, but we have to except that gift.....A gift.... substitute for justice....Jesus who taken our penalty in death or we individuals that don't except that gift given receive what is just. Our own penalty is our own burden to bare! Is essentially relational separation of God! For God to have our true love He has allowed us the ability to chose good over evil which is ultimately is Him! In a free will given freely by both parties! Otherwise we would be robots, droids or relation out fear! The truth separation is what you want that He gives you! Plainly life is short lived, but are you going to invest for the next life or be a taker?

 

[Eudaimonist]

I am an atheist, I believe in an objective morality, and I believe that theism ruins the idea of a universal objective morality.

Any questions?

Sure, what do you mean by a "universal objective morality"?

What is the justification for your universal objective morality?

What is a thumbnail description of the content of your universal objective morality?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[BrianOnEarth]

1) Where can I get an executive summary of God's moral law? Point by point. Is there a url? uww.morallaw.belikeme.god.com

2) This "we all have a big problem" psychology bothers me. This is like a slave mentality; I am living in immoral bondage and must follow Jesus in order to be freed. I know prophet Harry said "A man has got to know his limitations" but this is taking it a bit far isn't it? Seems rather neurotic.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I just want to make a point, since the issue of origins has arisen in a topic relating to morality. Christians often seem to make a big deal about how human beings came into existence when considering what we as human beings ought to do.

For me, the issue of origins is virtually irrelevant to morality. We could be created by the gods, or by Cthulhu, or by a computer intelligence, etc, and it would not matter one tiny bit what purpose they had in mind for our creation when it comes to our moral oughts.

In my view, our moral oughts have to do most fundamentally with what we are. We may ask what sort of naturally appropriate purposes we have, but that is answered by what we are. In order to understand our moral oughts, we need to examine the question of what it is to live as a human being, e.g., what sort of potentials we have, and how we need to relate to our life context (society, ecosystem, etc). We might learn something from evolution about ourselves from understanding how we evolved to our present state, but again this is only important ethically in terms of understanding how we are.

To place an excessive focus on origins is to miss the point. I suspect it is an attempt to sidestep the issue of learning about ourselves, and to shift that burden onto origin fables taken as dogma.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[quatona]

Do atheists believe in objective morality? Or does being atheist tend to make their beliefs more subjective since there is no God to say what is right and wrong?

As I said earlier I don´t know what objective morality is supposed to be, in the first place.
Yet, reading your explanation, I notice that I don´t even see much good coming from the sort of "objective morality" you have in mind (unless the god who says what is right and wrong happens to agree with me. E.g. if there were a god, and if this god were the authority on "objective morality", and if this god´s morality commanded us to kill, rape and steal - I suspect I would find a lot of comfort in the fact that I can still hold to my "subjective" convictions and disagree with this "objective morality".

 

[Ayersy]

God gives us Jesus as a gift, but we have to except that gift.....A gift.... substitute for justice....Jesus who taken our penalty in death or we individuals that don't except that gift given receive what is just. Our own penalty is our own burden to bare! Is essentially relational separation of God! For God to have our true love He has allowed us the ability to chose good over evil which is ultimately is Him! In a free will given freely by both parties! Otherwise we would be robots, droids or relation out fear! The truth separation is what you want that He gives you! Plainly life is short lived, but are you going to invest for the next life or be a taker?

Two words: Prove it.

 

[dewaddict84]

By you differentiating Bad and Good you measure morality as moral giver!

Well yeah, like I said, I have my own set of morals, just like you do. I don't really just hand them out to people though.

For who predetermine the ultimate good (TRUTH)?

I don't think that "good" is synonymous with "truth". I mean, 1+1=2 is true in a very ultimate, absolute, and provable way.
But is it good?
Meh, depends on what you're measuring.

...the author of the Bible...

were the sons of a bunch of political activists. I just don't see the divinity.

 

[allhart]

Ya'll are reasoning in your subjective feelings over objective facts! Truth matters! Faith is taken by all the evidence considered! God's proven it in honesty, in rational reasoning and in the reality of truth. Truth prevails over skepticism.....Truth prevails over all opposition to it....even untruth! Even to say insanity!

 

[allhart]

I just want to make a point, since the issue of origins has arisen in a topic relating to morality. Christians often seem to make a big deal about how human beings came into existence when considering what we as human beings ought to do.

For me, the issue of origins is virtually irrelevant to morality. We could be created by the gods, or by Cthulhu, or by a computer intelligence, etc, and it would not matter one tiny bit what purpose they had in mind for our creation when it comes to our moral oughts.

In my view, our moral oughts have to do most fundamentally with what we are. We may ask what sort of naturally appropriate purposes we have, but that is answered by what we are. In order to understand our moral oughts, we need to examine the question of what it is to live as a human being, e.g., what sort of potentials we have, and how we need to relate to our life context (society, ecosystem, etc). We might learn something from evolution about ourselves from understanding how we evolved to our present state, but again this is only important ethically in terms of understanding how we are.

To place an excessive focus on origins is to miss the point. I suspect it is an attempt to sidestep the issue of learning about ourselves, and to shift that burden onto origin fables taken as dogma.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Well all the Bibile points out is the laws and rules of the road, but you do have the freedom to travel in this life, therefore; the rules for some are made to be broken. For some it's unnecessary to consider consequences in the here after, but the truth of the matter that's what this life is all about and the test of time will be their concrete!

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

Ya'll are reasoning in your subjective feelings over objective facts! Truth matters! Faith is taken by all the evidence considered! God's proven it in honesty, in rational reasoning and in the reality of truth. Truth prevails over skepticism.....Truth prevails over all opposition to it....even untruth! Even to say insanity!

Well yeah, thats the whole point of being skeptic.
To weed out to untruths and end up with truths.

Although I do not entirely agree, Truth does not prevail without skepticism. So if people are not critical of their own believes aswell as others the truth will get lost.

I think there were a few people that argued for objective morality though. Ive seen some interesting arguements in that but im not entirely sure if it was this thread.

 

[allhart]

Well yeah, thats the whole point of being skeptic.
To weed out to untruths and end up with truths.

Although I do not entirely agree, Truth does not prevail without skepticism. So if people are not critical of their own believes aswell as others the truth will get lost.

I think there were a few people that argued for objective morality though. Ive seen some interesting arguements in that but im not entirely sure if it was this thread.

Well it is good your open to the truth then, but we should question everything with boldness, however; when the truth comes to your end.....it should prevail or all we have is, is denial! Which stems from your subjective feelings.....subjecting them over the reality of truth. Like when someone says the world always existed lol! Cause didn't come from nothing ,therefore; trying to avoiding the fact of a designer. which who is greater than oneself by design. Subjected over ones fears!

 

[razeontherock]

I don't believe religious beliefs are as significant a factor in creating personal morality as some religious people seem to ...believe.

If it were, all Christians would believe largely the same things, but they don't.

No logical connection here. Beliefs and morality are 2 separate things.

 

[allhart]

No logical connection here. Beliefs and morality are 2 separate things.

Towards TENKA: unity doesn't necessarily mean uniformity!