Do atheists believe in objective morality?

[allhart]

This is roughly the equivalent of the following scenario:

in a small hole, a sentient puddle forms. It examines the hole it is in, and finds that it fits the hole perfectly. Thus, it concludes that the hole must have been created to fit it by a Divine Puddle, rather than realizing that it just put the horse on the saddle.

"God" as an explanation for phenomena that we haven't yet understood is not an explanation at all. It keeps us from actually examining the natural factors involved by attributing phenomena to the supernatural.

And even though the likelihood that a planet meets all the factors required to produce life may be astronomically small, that's NOT the same as impossible. Likewise, the planet doesn't meet the requirements so that life may form - life formed because the planet meets the requirements.

I agree that the universe is a miraculous place - but attributing it all to an anthropomorphic deity cheapens that wonder, dampens our curiosity to learn more, and provides non-answers to unsolved riddles rather than encouraging us to look deeper.

Supernatural is one key element to wonder my fair lady, but God doesn't cheapen it. Quit the contrary is God big or small? See God isn't apart what He has created, but stands outside of it supernatural speaking. What makes Him God? God stand as a tent over all creation even to say past, present and future,however; we can only be in the here and now! It's like trying to ask an ant to see your perspectives on much of any complexity that surrounds his very existence! using a scale of life in comparison to God and His attributes is like you looking up at sky scrapers then you taking a plane and from a mile up looking down. Your perspective from the ground is massive all the while it is small to God up in that plane! "i" THINK THAT ATHEISTS CHEAPEN THE WONDER OF LIFE BY CHEATING THEMSELVES OUT OF TRUTH ABOUT GOD. ANYHOW IF GOD WASN'T SO IMPORTANT WHY DO YOU PUT SO MUCH INTO DISPROVING HIM. FOR THIS IS WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT ANYHOW, RIGHT?

 

[BrianOnEarth]

Your morality is held up to what what standard and by who's.......Where is the beginning of it all? You and I use situations in perspective in the very essences of Good, but where does good come from? Designed genetics....programed DNA....hmmmm sounds impossible without a creator. Who makes the rules?

Good questions.
I am considering the relationship between instincts and coded values. I think they have to be pretty closely aligned or our emotional brains would not allow us to follow the code. Therefore, the code has to be based on the instincts. Our instincts have been selected for reproduction success.

For example, if God decreed today that all mothers had to kill their first born child and that this is GOOD then mothers are not going to do it. Most mothers will kill themselves first. I am certain that the natural instinct to protect your child will override anything God says.

Emotions are irrational without the wisdom behind knowing right from wrong! So You calculate risk over your emotion! Well spiritually there are more ramification in comparison to short lived on earth and eternity! Where does inner strength come from and can you measure it? Can you see love and can you buy love......that's like say can you buy money!

You are absolutely right. Love is instinctive. It is very difficult if not impossible to reason your way to loving someone and often quite difficult to reason your way out of loving someone. All of this is decided by our emotional brain and it knows what it wants.

Where do coded values come into it? Why don't we just do whatever we feel like? Let me just get one thing out of the way...I do not believe that our evolved instincts are as chaotic as some would like to believe. They protect us and optimise our ability to have children and protect them. So the world would not to to Hell in a handcart without coded values. But what I think has changed is that people have very very recently started living in huge social groups with complex hierarchies and technology. Technology makes it possible for a small group to control a big group. And our instincts have not adapted to this system complexity. So visionary people have had to reason out new, explicit rules to try to keep order and protect the individual. But to want to follow new rules we have to convince our emotional brain to follow them even if they rub up against existing instincts. And we struggle with this to this day.

I am proposing that we get our values from two sources: instincts evolved over millions of years and recent human reasoning. The former we comply with with no effort. The latter we have to learn to comply with though education and emotional incentives and practice!

I am just an amateur with an opinion here so I don't know if this is entirely coherent. Probably not! It would be nice if there are any evolutionary/social psychologists in this forum to comment.

 

[allhart]

Good questions.
I am considering the relationship between instincts and coded values. I think they have to be pretty closely aligned or our emotional brains would not allow us to follow the code. Therefore, the code has to be based on the instincts. Our instincts have been selected for reproduction success.

For example, if God decreed today that all mothers had to kill their first born child and that this is GOOD then mothers are not going to do it. Most mothers will kill themselves first. I am certain that the natural instinct to protect your child will override anything God says.


You are absolutely right. Love is instinctive. It is very difficult if not impossible to reason your way to loving someone and often quite difficult to reason your way out of loving someone. All of this is decided by our emotional brain and it knows what it wants.

Where do coded values come into it? Why don't we just do whatever we feel like? Let me just get one thing out of the way...I do not believe that our evolved instincts are as chaotic as some would like to believe. They protect us and optimise our ability to have children and protect them. So the world would not to to Hell in a handcart without coded values. But what I think has changed is that people have very very recently started living in huge social groups with complex hierarchies and technology. Technology makes it possible for a small group to control a big group. And our instincts have not adapted to this system complexity. So visionary people have had to reason out new, explicit rules to try to keep order and protect the individual. But to want to follow new rules we have to convince our emotional brain to follow them even if they rub up against existing instincts. And we struggle with this to this day.

I am proposing that we get our values from two sources: instincts evolved over millions of years and recent human reasoning. The former we comply with with no effort. The latter we have to learn to comply with though education and emotional incentives and practice!

I am just an amateur with an opinion here so I don't know if this is entirely coherent. Probably not! It would be nice if there are any evolutionary/social psychologists in this forum to comment.

We compare our lives in value to what and whom? why do we say a human being life is valid or worth...... to what and whom? God says We are created in our image. Giving us distinctive value. Which is in coded on our hearts and minds! You are differentiating of the flesh and spirit, my friend! Hell in a hand basket? The spectrum of hell shows us the attributes of God and God is love in essence!

 

[BrianOnEarth]

"i" THINK THAT ATHEISTS CHEAPEN THE WONDER OF LIFE BY CHEATING THEMSELVES OUT OF TRUTH ABOUT GOD. ANYHOW IF GOD WASN'T SO IMPORTANT WHY DO YOU PUT SO MUCH INTO DISPROVING HIM. FOR THIS IS WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT ANYHOW, RIGHT?

To be honest with you there is only so much awe I can take.
For me, and because of my education in science, I can build a model in my head of details from quarks up to galaxies and it is so complex, so vast, so minute, so voluminous that I can hardly think about it for long. It is just overwhelming both cognitively and emotionally. And that's without thinking about other people whose attributes and characters and emotions and hates and loves and art and music. The whole thing is just too much at any level. I just can't cope with adding God to it too.

Maybe we are all basically experiencing the same thing but we choose different mental models to contain it in our limited imaginations. Everyone seems to share an awe of existence and has a load of questions. Unanswered questions make us uneasy and we tend to choose answers that make us feel comfortable. Whatever makes you feel comfortable is fine by me. We just have to be careful not to let conjecture lead to inhumanity.

 

[allhart]

To be honest with you there is only so much awe I can take.
For me, and because of my education in science, I can build a model in my head of details from quarks up to galaxies and it is so complex, so vast, so minute, so voluminous that I can hardly think about it for long. It is just overwhelming both cognitively and emotionally. And that's without thinking about other people whose attributes and characters and emotions and hates and loves and art and music. The whole thing is just too much at any level. I just can't cope with adding God to it too.

Maybe we are all basically experiencing the same thing but we choose different mental models to contain it in our limited imaginations. Everyone seems to share an awe of existence and has a load of questions. Unanswered questions make us uneasy and we tend to choose answers that make us feel comfortable. Whatever makes you feel comfortable is fine by me. We just have to be careful not to let conjecture lead to inhumanity.

The capital letters are not yelling. Just emboldened point or statement. I'm for the likes of God which is out of Love and respect for your wishes. As you have had it with God this whole time. God can't buy your love. Which is one point to having a relationship withya! I love God and His people. I ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I know what love is, my friend! Cheapen does offend me a little though. I am still emotionally human and Jesus is my super hero lol! I'm free to grow in the likes of Jesus....in becoming more like Him!

 

[Eudaimonist]

19 to 21% oxygen one degree over or under we wouldn't exist.

False.

The concentration of oxygen in the atmosphere has varied quite a bit in the past (I'm talking tens of millions of years here). Life has adapted well to a fairly wide range of oxygen percentages. True, there are limits beyond which there would be major extinctions, but those limits certainly exceed 1%.

Even in contemporary times, Tibetans have adapted to the low air pressure conditions high up their mountains.

Tibetan adaptation to high altitude occurred in less than 3,000 years

The distance from the sun, one mile over or under we wouldn't exist.

Completely ridiculous. The habitable range around the Sun is much broader than that.

The earth axles is 23.5%, one degree over or under we wouldn't exist.

Also ridiculous. What do you imagine would be the harm? I can't think of anything.

Salt of the ocean 3.5%. Our Blood salt content is also 3.5% and not one builds on the other!

I'm not sure of your point here.

Who calculated the volume of air of the earth?

Scientists?

What made the varying degrees of elements coexist....what put together all of it....one miracle after another.

Natural processes.

The more we come to realize the more we realize we don't know.

Speak for yourself. Study some science, and learn how the god of the gaps is getting increasingly claustrophobic.



eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[BrianOnEarth]

We compare our lives in value to what and whom? why do we say a human being life is valid or worth...... to what and whom? God says We are created in our image. Giving us distinctive value. Which is in coded on our hearts and minds! You are differentiating of the flesh and spirit, my friend! Hell in a hand basket? The spectrum of hell shows us the attributes of God and God is love in essence!

I think I understand what you are saying and I agree with it as a very important, very real aspect of a persons life. Feeling that our world has love and meaning in it and that we can feel part of that is very important to most people. Feeling one is valuable to something outside oneself and feeling valued by it is a fundamental psychological need.

There are different ways to think about the world in order to meet that need. One is the Christian God. Another is to feel that we are loved by the natural world, almost by definition, as it has literally given us life and we are the means by which nature can reflect upon itself. I like that - we are Nature experiencing itself (I got that from Bill Hicks). We don't have to have a goal ahead of us to aim at; instead we can imagine our destiny is to shape where we go next. I think this is probably how many atheists and agnostics think about it (those who really think about it). I think the pantheists see the natural world and god as the same thing.

In the context of this thread, I don't think any of our moral values were handed to us on tablets by the OT God or anything like that. These are emotionally compelling stories which have the good intention of getting us to take these values seriously and act on them, for our own good. I think they came from natural processes and our own creativity. And we are not perfect and so we get into trouble when we hang on too long to dogma that doesn't evolve with society and with our knowledge of the natural world.

 

[Eudaimonist]

"i" THINK THAT ATHEISTS CHEAPEN THE WONDER OF LIFE BY CHEATING THEMSELVES OUT OF TRUTH ABOUT GOD.

Have you ever seen Carl Sagan's Cosmos? Watch it, and then get back to me about how atheists allegedly "cheapen the wonder of life".

ANYHOW IF GOD WASN'T SO IMPORTANT WHY DO YOU PUT SO MUCH INTO DISPROVING HIM. FOR THIS IS WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT ANYHOW, RIGHT?

It doesn't take much effort, actually. And it isn't God that is important. It is understanding this wondrous and awe-inspiring natural universe we live in for what it truly is. That's worth some effort, don't you think?

why do we say a human being life is valid or worth...... to what and whom?

To what? To human beings.

To whom? To ourselves.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[allhart]

I think I understand what you are saying and I agree with it as a very important, very real aspect of a persons life. Feeling that our world has love and meaning in it and that we can feel part of that is very important to most people. Feeling one is valuable to something outside oneself and feeling valued by it is a fundamental psychological need.

There are different ways to think about the world in order to meet that need. One is the Christian God. Another is to feel that we are loved by the natural world, almost by definition, as it has literally given us life and we are the means by which nature can reflect upon itself. I like that - we are Nature experiencing itself (I got that from Bill Hicks). We don't have to have a goal ahead of us to aim at; instead we can imagine our destiny is to shape where we go next. I think this is probably how many atheists and agnostics think about it (those who really think about it). I think the pantheists see the natural world and god as the same thing.

In the context of this thread, I don't think any of our moral values were handed to us on tablets by the OT God or anything like that. These are emotionally compelling stories which have the good intention of getting us to take these values seriously and act on them, for our own good. I think they came from natural processes and our own creativity. And we are not perfect and so we get into trouble when we hang on too long to dogma that doesn't evolve with society and with our knowledge of the natural world.

Everything bad or good without God is meaningless vain! Just remember this life is but a vapor and we are to count our days! The average man lives to 75 = 27375 days minus your yrs x 365 or could be looked at through the prism of your favorite season, however is short lived! Which to say isn't guaranteed and for what purpose or end? For every end there is a new beginning a beginning to what is the question? Openly questioning the existence of God and God will draw you near to Him! The mysteries of God is an adventure....I love truth and the wonder of God. Which never cease to exist!

 

[Eudaimonist]

Everything bad or good without God is meaningless vain!

Not to us.

Just remember this life is but a vapor and we are to count our days!

That only makes life all the more precious.

Which to say isn't guaranteed and for what purpose or end?

For the purpose and end of flourishing on Earth with the brief time that we have.

Openly questioning the existence of God and God will draw you near to Him!

Or it will reveal God's likely nonexistence.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[allhart]

Not to us.



That only makes life all the more precious.



For the purpose and end of flourishing on Earth with the brief time that we have.



Or it will reveal God's likely nonexistence.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Openly rebellious......what are you seeking....? to disprove God? You can disclaim truth but it doesn't make it true!......I can tell you about gravity and jumping off a four store building and you can say you don't believe me, but that still doesn't change the reality of it!.......Explain the reality of evil to me and How you differentiate good? Without a moral giver that supply's the moral law. For in reality that's who most try to disprove for their reasons.....in sex or drugs many reasons......which is your addiction that you want to live with? Can a moral person go to hell and if so why?

 

[Eudaimonist]

Openly rebellious...

Rebellious? As rebellious as you are by expressing your disagreement with us. You are not my liege lord.

We're having a discussion here as equal adults. We are both permitted to disagree with each other.

...what are you seeking....?

To correct you on your misunderstandings of the value of life.

You can disclaim truth but it doesn't make it true!

You can claim truth, but that doesn't make your claim true!

......I can tell you about gravity and jumping off a four store building and you can say you don't believe me, but that still doesn't change the reality of it!

That's right. And that's what I'm telling you.

.......Explain the reality of evil to me and How you differentiate good?

Okay, the short of it:

Good is that which nourishes human life and helps it to fulfill its natural function, which is to flourish as a rational individual with a complex psychology. Evil is that which stunts or damages human life.

Without a moral giver that supply's the moral law.

Done!

For in reality that's who most try to disprove for their reasons.....in sex or drugs many reasons......which is your addiction that you want to live with?

Integrity. What's yours?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[allhart]

Rebellious? As rebellious as you are by expressing your disagreement with us.

We're having a discussion here. We are both permitted to disagree.



To correct you on your misunderstandings of the value of life.



You can assert truth, but that doesn't make your assertion true!



That's right. And that's what I'm telling you.



Okay, the short of it:

Good is that which nourishes human life and helps it to fulfill its natural function, which is to flourish as a rational individual with a complex psychology. Evil is that which stunts or damages human life, or damages its capacity to flourish.



Done!



Integrity. What's yours?



I don't believe in the existence of hell.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Look until you can tell us where life started from there isn't much to go by. I have God's word and rationality about God. It takes more to believe in nothing with science after the fact than with God behind it all!

 

[Eudaimonist]

Look until you can tell us where life started from there isn't much to go by.

I don't need to do that. The answer to the value of life won't be found there. However, the answer to your specific question is almost certainly our Solar System, and primarily on Earth, through natural processes.

I have God's word and rationality about God.

That's nice. I have philosophy and science.

It takes more to believe in nothing with science after the fact than with God behind it all!

I believe in plenty, with rationality.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[allhart]

If you assume evil then aren't you assuming a moral law? On the bases you differentiate good and evil. By saying here is something good (a repeal of evil) Well if there is a moral law then you deposit a moral law then you must deposit a moral law giver this is whom you are trying to disprove, not prove! If there is no moral law giver then there is no moral law. If there is no moral law. Then there is no good! then there is no evil! This demonstrates the existence of God. The reality of evil is the freedom you posses to choice evil over good! And God in essence is love!

 

[Eudaimonist]

If you assume evil then aren't you assuming a moral law?

No, I'm assuming a natural moral standard set by our nature as human beings.

If there is no moral law giver then there is no moral law. If there is no moral law. Then there is no good! then there is no evil!

Nope. A moral standard is enough for there to be good and evil.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[allhart]

I don't need to do that. The answer to the value of life won't be found there. However, the answer to your specific question is almost certainly our Solar System, and primarily on Earth, through natural processes.



That's nice. I have philosophy and science.



I believe in plenty, with rationality.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Science isn't behind it all it's after the fact. You are avoiding God all together! For what unknown reason know one knows! DNA is mathematically equated.....It had reasoning behind its beginning start or birth. O.k. If we walked up to a tree and it had carvings in it. Like people tend to say A love T. Did it just evolve or did someone design it and place it there?

 

[allhart]

No, I'm assuming a natural moral standard set by our nature as human beings.



Nope. A moral standard is enough for there to be good and evil.


eudaimonia,

Mark

By who's or what authority? Evil.......what is sin or are you to good for that? You say don't push your morality on me, but then push yours on others.....no real rules just opinions (moral objectivism)

 

[Cabal]

If you assume evil then aren't you assuming a moral law? On the bases you differentiate good and evil. By saying here is something good (a repeal of evil) Well if there is a moral law then you deposit a moral law then you must deposit a moral law giver this is whom you are trying to disprove, not prove! If there is no moral law giver then there is no moral law. If there is no moral law. Then there is no good! then there is no evil! This demonstrates the existence of God. The reality of evil is the freedom you posses to choice evil over good! And God in essence is love!

Yeah, this didn't work when Ravi Zachariah tried it either.

 

[allhart]

Yeah, this didn't work when Ravi Zachariah tried it either.

You mean it didn't cut it for you, but by the way my friend this comes from God! God has a moral objective!