Do any of the YEC's out there understand Thermodynamics?

[Chi_Cygni]

I mean, why do you keep using it incorrectly in evolutionary arguments. You know there are plenty of books and/or websites that clearly explain the laws of thermodynamics so at least you wouldn't look as foolish as when you use it incorrectly.

**** This post is a public service announcement for the Thermodynamically challenged *****

 

[Buck72]

I understand Thermondynamics Chi, the Bible even understands Thermodynamics:

Psa 102:25 "Of old You founded the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

Psa 102:26 "Even they will perish, but You endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.

Psa 102:27 "But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.

Things do not improve over time. They wear out, cool off, erode, fade, decompose, dry out, and rot. This is the Second Law of Thermodynamics, known as "entropy". You cannot reverse the fact that things are becoming more disorganized, and adding energy to something does not automatically give it the ability to become more organized unless there is a means of harnessing that energy, like photosynthesis. However, photsynthesis is not a universal process which we can all take part it in.

The universe is wearing out...it is not getting better. You should know this because it can be clearly observed. The only people who argue this are the same ones who say the Bible is for fools.

Further food for thought from a foolish Christian, and a foolish Bible:

1Co 2:6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;

1Co 2:7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;

1Co 2:8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;

1Co 2:9 but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM."

1Co 2:10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.

1Co 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,

1Co 2:13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

1Co 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

1Co 2:15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.

1Co 2:16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Crusadar]

I mean, why do you keep using it incorrectly in evolutionary arguments. You know there are plenty of books and/or websites that clearly explain the laws of thermodynamics so at least you wouldn't look as foolish as when you use it incorrectly.

From my understanding, the 2nd law of thermodynamics tells us that within a thermodynamically closed system, entropy (the measure of energy no longer available for work) tends to increase over time.

An alternative interpretation of this law simply tells us that in a closed system order tends to decrease. Where in such a system no overall gain of order can be attained as the total number of energy available for work is steadily decreasing. And it would seem that no upward progressive organization of matter within such a system can occur as required by evolution (an increase in order).

There is however small local exceptions on a molecular basis that are possible – this exception I suppose is the basis for the wishful thinking of evolutionists who postulate that in such cases evolutionary mechanisms can and will take place.

But unbeknown to the undisciplined, such an exception can only occur where there is a storage medium for the locally reduced entropy to be retained and passed on. However within a normal abiotic closed system containing only raw matter such as that of a speculated primitive earth such a system would be in a state of total equilibrium as there are no living mechanisms present to receive and store these small increases of order.

 

[Crusadar]

Hey Buck,

I use to quote scripture as much as you do, but as one Bible believing literalist to another:

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." Matthew 7:6

 

[TheBear]

Hey Buck,

I use to quote scripture as much as you do, but as one Bible believing literalist to another:

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." Matthew 7:6

Do you know who Jesus was refering to when He said that? Was He refering to Christians or non-Christians? Do you think Jesus was refering to Christians as dogs and swine? Why would you even post something like that in a forum where only Christians participate?

 

[troodon]

Do you know who Jesus was refering to when He said that? Was He refering to Christians or non-Christians? Do you think Jesus was refering to Christians as dogs and swine? Why would you even post something like that in a forum where only Christians participate?

I'm not sure reasoning with him will help.

 

[Josh1]

THeBear: Why would you even post something like that in a forum where only Christians participate?

HAHAHAHAHAHAH, I doubt it. God Bless. John 1:1 If you don't believe the Bible, how can you a christian?

[noflame]


Consider this an unofficial warning.

​

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

THeBear: Why would you even post something like that in a forum where only Christians participate?

HAHAHAHAHAHAH, I doubt it. God Bless. John 1:1 If you don't believe the Bible, how can you a christian?

You do know that insinuating other members are not Christians is against the rules of these fora, don't you?

It's a shame really - the best weapon the YECs have is spiritual blackmail.

 

[alehm]

I understand Thermondynamics Chi, the Bible even understands Thermodynamics:

You can quote scripture all you want Buck, but the people here are using the same vocabulary but different dictionary.

It is not going to do any good.

 

[Vance]

Same text, different interpretation, definitely.

Same Christian belief, regardless, which is the real point.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

I mean, why do you keep using it incorrectly in evolutionary arguments. You know there are plenty of books and/or websites that clearly explain the laws of thermodynamics so at least you wouldn't look as foolish as when you use it incorrectly.

From my understanding, the 2nd law of thermodynamics tells us that within a thermodynamically closed system, entropy (the measure of energy no longer available for work) tends to increase over time.

An alternative interpretation of this law simply tells us that in a closed system order tends to decrease. Where in such a system no overall gain of order can be attained as the total number of energy available for work is steadily decreasing. And it would seem that no upward progressive organization of matter within such a system can occur as required by evolution (an increase in order).

There is however small local exceptions on a molecular basis that are possible ? this exception I suppose is the basis for the wishful thinking of evolutionists who postulate that in such cases evolutionary mechanisms can and will take place.

But unbeknown to the undisciplined, such an exception can only occur where there is a storage medium for the locally reduced entropy to be retained and passed on. However within a normal abiotic closed system containing only raw matter such as that of a speculated primitive earth such a system would be in a state of total equilibrium as there are no living mechanisms present to receive and store these small increases of order.

The key word is closed. The Earth is not a closed system, obtaining a lot of energy from the sun. Likewise, organisms are not closed systems. Therefore, order can increase.

 

[TruthTraveler]

You do know that insinuating other members are not Christians is against the rules of these fora, don't you?

No one likes a TadelTale.

 

[Buck72]

The key word is closed. The Earth is not a closed system, obtaining a lot of energy from the sun. Likewise, organisms are not closed systems. Therefore, order can increase.

You're right! The Earth is not a closed system - the Universe, however is a closed system. Entropy is not limited to Earth only, it is a universal constant.

Also, order NEVER increases in the manner as it would require evolution to occur as it has been presented. Think "Big Picture".

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

You're right! The Earth is not a closed system - the Universe, however is a closed system. Entropy is not limited to Earth only, it is a universal constant.

Also, order NEVER increases in the manner as it would require evolution to occur as it has been presented. Think "Big Picture".

But the SLoT doesn't operate at the "big picture" level - it operates at the specific level. You need to identify the actual process which evolution requires which contradicts the SLoT.

 

[Crusadar]

The key word is closed. The Earth is not a closed system, obtaining a lot of energy from the sun. Likewise, organisms are not closed systems. Therefore, order can increase.

By closed - I was referring to origin of life processes which many have used to simulate their failed attempts in proving abiogenesis.

However in an open system such as the earth, there are a number of reasons why order and complexity cannot have arisen as evolutionists tell us - to which I will address in a later post.

 

[Crusadar]

Karl - Liberal Backslider said: But the SLoT doesn't operate at the "big picture" level - it operates at the specific level. You need to identify the actual process which evolution requires which contradicts the SLoT.

In order for the upward progressive increase of complexity required by evolution two things must be true from repeated and consistent observations of the living world.

1. There must be a storage mechanism for this increase of order to be retained and passed on to succeeding generations.

2. The use of storage mechanisms which already exists cannot play a part since such mechanisms presupposes that there is already life – as it cannot be dependent on the very system that is required but does not yet have!

But for the sake of this discussion lets say that life did manage to arise - but that would mean that raw matter in its nonhierarchical forms contain already concepts and machines – when in fact raw matter bares in itself nothing of the sort!

In preabiotic matter there does not exist any mechanisms of storage that the first primitive life could have used to store an increase of order – for without it any increase of order will no doubt return to a state of equilibrium – meaning there is no upward organization of matter to increase complexity without specific directions.

 

[Crusadar]

fragmentsofdreams said: Likewise, organisms are not closed systems. Therefore, order can increase.

Organisms that already possess a storage mechanism perhaps, but that assumes that such mechanisms can spontaneously arise from raw matter alone – which from observation to this day has not been the case.

Let’s examine this from a purely chemical perspective. As with any system – open or closed it is well established that raw undirected energy introduced within a system is only useful when it is refined or rectified within that system if the total order of such a system is to increase. However rectified energy is exclusively the product of mechanisms and machines. This fact is relevant to all living and non living systems - the only difference between the two being that living systems are programmed genetically to direct raw energy.

From what is currently known raw energy can only be harnessed and made useful with know how (mechanisms and machines) and cannot be made useful any other way. As such the genetic program required for directing the use of raw energy is a requirement before any complexity can arise, as then the harnessed energy can be used to finance growth and replication.

As far as we know, the living cell possesses no mechanism which could make use of its metabolic energy to produce or create new genetic material. The metabolic energy of a cell is primarily used for its own growth and replication of already existing genetic codes. As living organisms are not programmed for producing new genetic material the only conclusion thus is that upward evolution most certainly cannot, nor does it occur!

 

[Chi_Cygni]

Crusadar,

You really don't understand Thermodynamics at all, do you?

Thermodynamics does not care about mechanism, period. It cares about end points.

How do you feel about snowflakes by the way?

 

[Crusadar]

You really don't understand Thermodynamics at all, do you?
Thermodynamics does not care about mechanism, period. It cares about end points. How do you feel about snowflakes by the way?

It’s always convenient to say someone does not understand something simply because they do not agree with you - isn’t it? And again show me where it is I lack an understanding of this law - using observable, experimentable proof, and not simply make unsupported assertions.

Snowflakes? I like snow flakes, they are pretty.

Or are you referring to the randomness of snowflake formation and now wrongly comparing that to the generation of complex mechanisms required by living organisms to evolve? As you should be aware of snow flakes, crystals etc. form from little information and its structure is randomly repeated, while life processes require complex mechanisms or directions that must be adhered to in exact detail or the end product is useless or detrimental. And how are such processes as protein synthesis and other cell processes observed to occur in life? They are genetically orchestrated, no randomness at all!