Do aborted babies go to heaven?

[GoldenKingGaze]

Or, you don't have a clue and haven't really thought about it. And you're not willing to think about it now, in case it makes Yahweh look bad.

Is the motivation to believe in a deity partly to relieve yourself of the burden of this kind of thinking?

Christians have some values that come from a commitment to Jesus, and sometimes a commitment from experiencing Jesus presence. This can be rationalized but is not in itself rational. Isaiah 1 asks us to reason, about cleanness. We are not all totally thought out with logic. We don't need to be.

 

[Locutus]

I see you're a seeker -
-

Indeed. I'm always seeking evidence that deities might exist. If any evidence presents itself during my lifetime, I'll try to determine if a particular identity or 'nature' of the deity is apparent. If so, I'll then assess the deity on merit. I'll read the old books (if the deity discovered is actually known to humanity - which strikes me as unlikely, but you never know. Odin could be real!) to see if she/he/it is entirely benevolent and non-violent, and practices unconditional love. THEN, I MIGHT consider worshipping. It also depends on how well the present acolytes acquit themselves, and a few other things.

 

[Locutus]

Christians have some values that come from a commitment to Jesus, and sometimes a commitment from experiencing Jesus presence. This can be rationalized but is not in itself rational. Isaiah 1 asks us to reason, about cleanness. We are not all totally thought out with logic. We don't need to be.

That must be quite restful. Not needing to think through the hard stuff. A bit like being a child again, listening to Mom & Dad have those heated and apparently stressful brainstorms over long term economic goals and thinking, "glad I'm a kid and don't have to worry about all that boring stuff!"

I can see the appeal

 

[patrick jane]

Indeed. I'm always seeking evidence that deities might exist. If any evidence presents itself during my lifetime, I'll try to determine if a particular identity or 'nature' of the deity is apparent. If so, I'll then assess the deity on merit. I'll read the old books (if the deity discovered is actually known to humanity - which strikes me as unlikely, but you never know. Odin could be real!) to see if she/he/it is entirely benevolent and non-violent, and practices unconditional love. THEN, I MIGHT consider worshipping. It also depends on how well the present acolytes acquit themselves, and a few other things.

Sorry, you're lost - you lack sound doctrine: 1 Timothy 1:10 - 2 Timothy 4:3 - Titus 1:9 - Titus 2:1 -

 

[Belk]

Odd to think that the vast majority of heaven will apparently be populated by the estimated 40% - 50% of pregnancies that spontaneously abort. Seems a rather pointless exercise to save the small percentage of the world population that were Christian let alone those Christians who were of The One True Faith!(TM).

 

[DogmaHunter]

Yes, some Muslims can make it in the end to Heaven.

How exactly?

And let's be ultra clear on this: in your opinion, one does not need to be a christian, to get to the christian version of heaven, correct?

Atheists are trying to say that unborn babies dying go to Heaven, so then the Doctors aborting them are doing them a favour. I disagree as in my previous posts. The children owe nothing to the killers but everything to the saviour. That is why I typed in the question of WW2 US soldiers thanking the Japanese.

It is my understanding that, in christianity, the only way to go to heaven is by believing the correct things about Jesus.

Meaning that if one dies a non-christian, one is doomed to hell by default.

That's a premise that you seem to be ignoring when responding to the statements that aborting children from mountain regions in Pakistan, would then be doing those souls a favor.

It's certainty of paradise when aborted vs 99.99999% chance of eternal doom if not aborted.

Given that premise, it's a perfectly factual response to state that aborting those children is doing them a favor.

If abortion seems fair to atheists, why then is God's flooding the world to kill of the child corruptors seem unfair?

First of all, we are off course talking hypothetically. Let's not forget that atheists don't actually believe any of this. I'm just following a logical trail of thought here.
As in: given x and y, then z.

Secondly, god is not the subject of discussion here. His actions, motivations, goals, intentions are pretty much irrelevant. Call this "abortion = straight to heaven" a backdoor in his "system" if you wish, it doesn't matter.

The only point there is "certainty-of-paradise" vs "as-good-as-certainty of eternal doom".

It's not my fault that the sum of beliefs on this subject results in the logical conclusion that aborting babies will ensure those babies' souls to enjoy eternal bliss...

And the same with calling the actions under Moses genocide.

This is again as irrelevant as it gets to the point at hand.
The point at hand is that in these dogma's, there is a way to ensure the souls of babies to go straight to paradise, while the alternative is those souls being doomed for eternity the vast, vast, vast majority of the time. Not to say "in all cases", when talking about tribes in Pakistan for example.

Do abortion doctors hate the babies? Are they somehow really helping the babies go to Heaven? Should the babies learn to be thankful to the doctors in paradise? Are doctors and the parents so wise that that they are entitled to condescend and kill the children understanding that it is for the better?

Hey dude... I'm not the one who is inventing these warped things.

Christians in this thread were the ones that said that dead babies go straight to heaven - no matter if they would have grown up to be ISIS members or what-have-you.

If the baby was the son of Abu Bakr Al Bagdadi, and thus doomed to a Jihadi life and perhaps even suicide bomber, then how can you sit there and say that one doesn't do that baby a favor by aborting it, if the belief is that those babies go straight to paradise?

 

[TastyWallet]

You would think. But many Christians don't give a tinker's cuss for 'works', and say it's all about the incantation. Do that, and you can please yourself. As most do.

That may be what some of them think, but what does that have to do with what I am saying?

 

[Merlin]

I don't see how this is an answer to my question.

The guy who sacrifices his temporal earthly life to save a handfull of other earthly lives, is called a hero.

Who calls him a hero?
God?

 

[Merlin]

I could not imagine what possible reason a god would have to send anyone to hell.

Why would God force a person into heaven if that person has rejected God all of his life?
Wouldn't that be cruel?

 

[ebedmelech]

Or, you don't have a clue and haven't really thought about it. And you're not willing to think about it now, in case it makes Yahweh look bad.

Is the motivation to believe in a deity partly to relieve yourself of the burden of this kind of thinking?

You're free to draw your own conclusion...which doesn't matter to me.

I simply won't draw a conclusion which is in the province of God and not spoken of in the scriptures. This I do know, God is Holy, Just, and Righteous in ALL He does.

If you're looking for an argument...look elsewhere.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Why would God force a person into heaven if that person has rejected God all of his life?
Wouldn't that be cruel?

An eternity of torture for believing the "wrong" thing, is not cruel?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

An eternity of torture for believing the "wrong" thing, is not cruel?

Hell was created for fallen angels, who had attempted to kill God and take his power. Once being glorious and having all knowledge, there was no way for them to repent after this. And at the cross they were counted as uninterested. By the cross we have forgiveness. A way to repent. The fallen angels are accusers who seek to make us like themselves from jealousy and hate, so that a just God cannot accept them, or they create havoc in the light of Heaven. The judge bears the wounds from the cross so the judged need not pay such a price. If they refused all this they may end up in Hell fire. Others in temporary penalty. Others have received Christ and can continue to be perfected and enter the light and participate.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Hell was created for fallen angels, who had attempted to kill God and take his power. Once being glorious and having all knowledge, there was no way for them to repent after this. And at the cross they were counted as uninterested. By the cross we have forgiveness. A way to repent. The fallen angels are accusers who seek to make us like themselves from jealousy and hate, so that a just God cannot accept them, or they create havoc in the light of Heaven. The judge bears the wounds from the cross so the judged need not pay such a price. If they refused all this they may end up in Hell fire. Others in temporary penalty. Others have received Christ and can continue to be perfected and enter the light and participate.

None of this makes any sense to me.

It also doesn't answer my question, which was a yes/no question.

 

[Dave-W]

Others in temporary penalty.

No such thing. Either you are in or you are out. Forever.

 

[Dave-W]

This is a serious question that I have been struggling with. Do aborted babies go to heaven?

There is no indication one way or the other.

The only possible exception to that is Jewish babies born under the Abrahamic or Mosaic covenants - which is entered by being born Jewish. Gentiles have no such covenant and the New Covenant by which we are saved is an "opt in" covenant meaning we have to make a conscious decision to enter it. Unborn babies are incapable of understanding or choosing.

OTOH, we understand God to be merciful and just.

Bottom line: we really cannot know one way or the other.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

None of this makes any sense to me.

It also doesn't answer my question, which was a yes/no question.

I am influenced like others by near death experience accounts.

Look at Howard Storm, and Ian McCormack.
Jesus prayed "your will be done on Earth as in Heaven." If a person has an angry character, and they enter Heaven, they may want to hit or kill people, perhaps like an ancient Greek soldier who went through an NDE. Then it goes all awry for him. Angels of light are extremely strong. There must be a way for the character to change for the person to remain in Heaven. Love must come in. Receive the Spirit of Christ and then you have the hope of glory. God acts from the inside out, not terror into a person from without. Hell isn't what God wants, so he is not carrying out cruelty.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I am influenced like others by near death experience accounts.

Look at Howard Storm, and Ian McCormack.
Jesus prayed "your will be done on Earth as in Heaven." If a person has an angry character, and they enter Heaven, they may want to hit or kill people, perhaps like an ancient Greek soldier who went through an NDE.

How do you kill someone who's already dead?
How do you "hit" someone who's body isn't material?

Then it goes all awry for him. Angels of light are extremely strong. There must be a way for the character to change for the person to remain in Heaven. Love must come in. Receive the Spirit of Christ and then you have the hope of glory. God acts from the inside out, not terror into a person from without. Hell isn't what God wants, so he is not carrying out cruelty.

God created hell.
God made up the rules by which souls are judged and sentenced to hell.

If this God didn't want people to end up in hell, he should have not created it or decided to send people there. That was his choice. And it's nothing short of cruel. An eternity of torture is, actually by definition, the "most cruel" possible.

There is nothing more cruel then eternal torment and pain.

Whatever excuse, defence or explanations you come up with - it doesn't change the fact that eternal pain is the most cruel thing imaginable.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

How do you kill someone who's already dead?
How do you "hit" someone who's body isn't material?



God created hell.
God made up the rules by which souls are judged and sentenced to hell.

If this God didn't want people to end up in hell, he should have not created it or decided to send people there. That was his choice. And it's nothing short of cruel. An eternity of torture is, actually by definition, the "most cruel" possible.

There is nothing more cruel then eternal torment and pain.

Whatever excuse, defence or explanations you come up with - it doesn't change the fact that eternal pain is the most cruel thing imaginable.

A pagan soldier will look with ill intent in Heaven as on Earth. Then try things, can't change fast, may not want to. Like Satan, he may even want to replace God.
The rules are based on God's nature, friendship, love and are life, that vibrance of thought and deed between people. Only the clean can see God. Rules are surpassed by the Gospel grace and truth. Not so much as rules or knowledge or faith, as God's presence in living water, taken in by faith, gives life.

Hell is just, God does not intend to be cruel, it is practical for the determined and unrelenting evil element of the universe, as Howard Storm says, the sewer of the universe, where beings feed off the pain of others.

 

[DogmaHunter]

A pagan soldier will look with ill intent in Heaven as on Earth. Then try things, can't change fast, may not want to. Like Satan, he may even want to replace God.
The rules are based on God's nature, friendship, love and are life, that vibrance of thought and deed between people. Only the clean can see God. Rules are surpassed by the Gospel grace and truth. Not so much as rules or knowledge or faith, as God's presence in living water, taken in by faith, gives life.

Hell is just, God does not intend to be cruel, it is practical for the determined and unrelenting evil element of the universe, as Howard Storm says, the sewer of the universe, where beings feed off the pain of others.

I don't understand a word of this.

Reads like preachy-sounding gibberish.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I don't understand a word of this.

Reads like preachy-sounding gibberish.

Jesus taught that we must do on Earth as in Heaven. We need hope. The hope to become the right and kind character that composes Heaven and life and eternal life comes by such blessings as living water, God's Spirit we take in. For from the heart comes life. No faith and you doubt there is any living water. Knowledge and laws are not enough. If you do not get on the path to life in this life, unlike a baby, after sinning, then you may never gain life in your heart and a place in Heaven. Jesus gave us the cross, a way to life, in his living water and sacred blood. And it is written, he gives us this, how much all other things? So God holds out an offer, we need to take it now in case we die tomorrow, or in death, we don't know what could happen, for better or worse.