DNA preserves the integrity of its program

PsychoSarah

Chaotic Neutral
Jan 13, 2014
20,521
2,609
✟95,463.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Because they are not there and then they are (and by the way, synapsids are another man made classification that actually by definition already includes mammals)
-_- if the distinction between mammal and reptile is so obvious in all fossils, then you should be able to easily tell which of these fossils I post are mammals, and which are reptiles.
By the way, syapsid refers to the earliest mammals as well as NON-MAMMAL groups more closely related to mammals than other living amniotes. There are plenty of reptiles in that group.
Dimetrodon%20skeleton.JPG

i-98417670fc084f11b1f86824e3a43696-Ennatosaurus.jpg

main-qimg-a8832498b585e5230a49f1017d2762d4-c

e43686f6145c45d35ae3c3a7b2bb84b6.jpg


Bats are an excellent example. There are none at a certain point and then they are there (the actual observable data we have)...now I know the undemonstrated pat story of how they evolved from tiny shrew-like creatures that fell out of or jumped out of trees for 1000s of generations eventually evolving wings but there is no evidence to such that s true.
Pfft, you say that as if fossils are the best evidence for evolution, and as if we would expect to find every intermediate fossil for every modern species. We thought coelacanths were extinct because there is a huge gap in the fossil record from millions of years ago to now, despite them being an existing taxa today. Some organisms just didn't live in places suited to fossil formation. Plenty had body structures unsuited to fossil formation. Fragile bones and soft tissues do not make for good fossils even in environments in which animals with thick bones fossilize easily.

Additionally, I have to ask what your point was in referencing bats? Your argument is refuted as long as there is at least 1 fossil record complete enough to show a somewhat gradual transition from one major animal group to another. We have that for mammals and reptiles, as well as for fish and amphibians. An incomplete fossil record for bats does not help you, since everyone knows that the majority of species never leave behind fossils, and plenty that did remain undiscovered. The bat intermediate you claim could not possibly have existed because there aren't any fossils for it could be discovered next week. It's made additionally pointless by the fact that DNA similarities and modern evolution experiments are the best evidence for evolution, and all fossils do now is help with evolutionary history.
 
Upvote 0

pshun2404

Newbie
Jan 26, 2012
6,026
620
✟78,299.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Not really. It's what is utilized chemically to determine what proteins and RNA the cell produces, and it makes perfect sense that the DNA that would be best at persisting would be that which instigates the production of molecules that improve replication and structural integrity. It'd be much more perplexing if DNA didn't do that.

-_- earliest eukaryotes had them? Quite possibly, but that's not confirmed by any means, seeing as we can't get DNA from fossils that old. Perhaps these early eukaryotes had fewer of them, who knows?

This source is too old to be used as a reliable reference. As a general rule, it is best not to use sources older than 5 years when it comes to the sciences, and I would pressure people to use ones as recent as humanly possible when it comes to the subject of genetics specifically, due to how much progress occurs within that field even in just a single year. It's well known now that mutation rates vary significantly between different species. For example, if this number was based on humans, it would err high for the majority of species, as humans have notably high mutation rates.

Furthermore, I don't think you quite understand how difficult it would be to detect the mutations that the cell fixes before DNA replication is completed, seeing as the first corrective molecules follow right behind the replicating strand. Especially in 2004.

Almost nil? In humans, it can be as bad as 1 mistake per 100 nucleotides that doesn't get fixed in the most mutation prone regions of our DNA. That's ridiculously high, especially considering how much better at it bacteria are (as low as 1 mistake per 1 billion nucleotides getting through despite the repair mechanisms). Seeing as bacteria generally have much shorter DNA than 1 billion bases, that means multiple generations can occur without mutations at all. Heck, if it weren't for how fast bacteria replicate and their large numbers, they would be terrible for evolutionary observation.

-_- in bacteria, perhaps. This doesn't apply to eukaryotes, which generally have much higher mutation rates. Furthermore, single base pair mutations are actually some of the easiest for the repair mechanisms to notice, since it causes a physical irregularity in the DNA structure that prevents a spot from chemically hooking together... assuming that only a single base on one of the strands is affected.

Mostly neutral, given that the mutations can hit places on the DNA that have no function and most codons are redundant. Plus, a few of the amino acids different codons signal have similar chemical properties to each other to such an extent that there's no measurable difference in the resulting protein product function despite a change in amino acid. Detrimental ones can range from measurably reducing function efficiency a little to producing protein products so useless that the cell dies early. That's quite the range, isn't it? When people talk about detrimental mutations, they often mistakenly only point out examples like cancers or other conditions resulting in cellular death or physical agony, neglecting much more minor detriments that are more common.

People also neglect to mention that our DNA has redundancy in the genes. Yes, the same gene can be present multiple times. Thus, even if one copy of the gene has been rendered useless thanks to mutation, the other copies can pick up the slack.

You are also talking in terms of just 1 cell. Our bodies have trillions of them. Plenty die every day from age and mutation, and our bodies keep up with that until around the age of 25. This is part of why we grow old and die.

About 5% of mutations are measurably benign. Although, only the ones which occur in gametes are relevant to evolution. You aren't going to pass down any mutations that occur in one of your skin cells to the next generation no matter if it is benign, detrimental, or neutral.

Which fails so much in humans that the miscarriage rate among people that know they are pregnant is 10-20%, and is even higher at the zygote stage at between 30-50%. The worst of the worst mutations are weeded out early on. Consider a condition no one wants to be diagnosed with: Huntington's disease. Now, this condition is non-symptomatic during the time in a person's life in which they are most likely to have children (historically, as until modern times most people would have kids before turning 30, though this is the low end of the typical range of symptoms beginning to appear). Is it heavily detrimental and deadly? Absolutely. Does it reduce reproductive success? Nope. As long as a detrimental mutation doesn't result in death prior to the reproductive years or reduce fertility or reproductive chances, natural selection isn't going to weed it out at all, and those people are free to also pass down any benign and neutral mutations they have or have occurred in their gametes.

Now, the mutations for Huntington's are dominant genes, but a lot of the most common genes which cause genetic disease are recessive. This is especially true for those that cause death in childhood, such as Tay-Sachs. That is, a recessive detrimental mutation can persist and not interfere with life at all as long as you aren't homozygous for it and also have the normal gene present in your DNA. As Tay-Sachs kills so young, no couple having children can be true breeding for it. That is, at worst, only about 1 out of 4 of their children will have this condition. Thus, as long as the benign mutations they have outweigh the reduction in reproductive success, this will persist.

Then there are conditions such as sickle cell anemia, which are a mixed bag rather than being outright detrimental. If a person is homozygous for the gene, they do suffer disease affects and may die before reproductive age, but plenty do survive even without medical intervention long enough to have children. People heterozygous for the gene rarely have symptoms, though they do have some sickle cells. However, both homozygous and heterozygous people have a resistance to malaria due to the sickle cells. Since malaria is a much more deadly than sickle cell anemia, in areas in which malaria is a huge problem, this mutation is benign. In places with proper medical treatment and areas where malaria isn't present, it's detrimental. Many mutations you can see that create variation in people are like that: dark skin prevents damage in sunny, hot places, but doesn't allow for high enough vitamin D production in cold areas where one has to cover up most of their skin and go through periods of reduced sunlight. The genes that helped some people resist the Bubonic Plague in the 1300s are also responsible for somewhat weaker immune systems overall. Since most traits in general aren't universally benign or detrimental, which category a mutation falls under can be entirely situational depending on what organism experiences it and what environment it lives in. Yes, even genes which help aid the integrity of DNA itself could prove to be not worth the resources they utilize and thus be more detrimental than benign.


-_- what does it even mean for DNA to fulfill its "purpose so predictably"? It took decades of research and observation to figure out how DNA works and apply any degree of predictability to it. Furthermore, there is plenty we still do not understand, conditions we are unsure are mostly genetic or mostly due to the environment. By their very nature, predictive models for multifactoral traits affected by many genes are currently impossible to make just because of how complex the inheritance pattern is and the number of different alleles that have to be accounted for.

Furthermore, while mutations are mostly random, the other factors that influence inheritance and DNA are not. Natural selection is determined by the environment an organism lives in, for example. DNA isn't, nor ever has been, the product of purely random events. However, this doesn't mean the non-random events were guided by some intelligent mind.


-_- nucleic acids can form in nature, and they appear as chains of RNA in the protocells that appeared during abiogenesis experiments. No shock that RNA and not DNA would be the first genetic material in cells; it does most of the legwork in modern ones. In fact, DNA has to be transcribed to RNA before it can produce proteins. That doesn't sound like a system optimized for DNA, does it?

Also, I find it interesting that you didn't mention one of the last lines of defense against mutation: apoptosis. You know, where the mutation in DNA is too significant for any of the repair mechanisms to fix it, so the cell kills itself. Cells can also enter an irreversible dormancy if their DNA is too severely damaged.

You also don't mention that inevitably, cells will be unable to continue to replicate their DNA and divide... except for cancer cells. Yes, cells in which all repair mechanisms for DNA and even the back up of cell mediated death can divide indefinitely as long as there are resources around them that allow for it. Cells don't need these repair mechanisms to actually survive and reproduce, they're just better off with them so they don't divide out of control and deplete the surrounding resources to the point that the whole colony eventually dies off from starvation or being crushed by each other if the area they are dividing in is small (like bacteria on a Petri dish).

What persists in a population is not the organism with the fewest mutations, but the one which manages to make what it has work. What survives and reproduces successfully persists, no more, no less. This is why there are so many physical flaws in living things which persist; they simply weren't detrimental enough NOT to persist.

Thanks for the small book of standard run of the mill rhetoric Sarah...it would take a larger one to reply to all (much of which I 100% agree with). Your summation closed with "What persists in a population is not the organism with the fewest mutations, but the one which manages to make what it has work. What survives and reproduces successfully persists, no more, no less. This is why there are so many physical flaws in living things which persist; they simply weren't detrimental enough NOT to persist." Which I also agree with (though not solidly with the final statement). It is largely about adaptation and success...but still with such a proactive system of self-correction and preservation (produced by the coding for these proteins, i.e., the enzymes involved), it still seems highly unlikely that random mutation could cause such changes as the transmutation of organisms into all together different organisms. But thanks for responding...
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Thanks for the small book of standard run of the mill rhetoric Sarah...it would take a larger one to reply to all (much of which I 100% agree with). Your summation closed with "What persists in a population is not the organism with the fewest mutations, but the one which manages to make what it has work. What survives and reproduces successfully persists, no more, no less. This is why there are so many physical flaws in living things which persist; they simply weren't detrimental enough NOT to persist." Which I also agree with (though not solidly with the final statement). It is largely about adaptation and success...but still with such a proactive system of self-correction and preservation (produced by the coding for these proteins, i.e., the enzymes involved), it still seems highly unlikely that random mutation could cause such changes as the transmutation of organisms into all together different organisms. But thanks for responding...
What do you mean by "altogether different?" All organisms are basically sacks of eukaryotic cells in different arrangements. What's the difference?
 
Upvote 0

Subduction Zone

Regular Member
Dec 17, 2012
32,628
12,068
✟230,461.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Thanks for the small book of standard run of the mill rhetoric Sarah...it would take a larger one to reply to all (much of which I 100% agree with). Your summation closed with "What persists in a population is not the organism with the fewest mutations, but the one which manages to make what it has work. What survives and reproduces successfully persists, no more, no less. This is why there are so many physical flaws in living things which persist; they simply weren't detrimental enough NOT to persist." Which I also agree with (though not solidly with the final statement). It is largely about adaptation and success...but still with such a proactive system of self-correction and preservation (produced by the coding for these proteins, i.e., the enzymes involved), it still seems highly unlikely that random mutation could cause such changes as the transmutation of organisms into all together different organisms. But thanks for responding...


That is quite the strawman. The theory of evolution never has the "transmutation of organisms into totally different organisms".

I think that we have been through this before. All of your descendants will be human. But let's look at your ancestors. You share a common ancestor with chimpanzees. That ancestor was an ape. The chimpanzee is an ape and you are still an ape. No "transmutation into a totally different organism".

You share a common ancestor with cats. That ancestor was a mammal. The cat is a mammal. You are a mammal. No "transmutation into a totally different organism".

You share a common ancestor with fish. That ancestor was a vertebrate, all fish are vertebrates, you are a vertebrate. No "transmutation into a totally different organism".

You share a common ancestor with squids. That ancestor is a member of anamalia. The squid is a member, and so are you. No "transmutation into a totally different organism".

You share a common ancestor with a banana. That ancestor was a eucaryote. You are a eucaryote. No "transmutation into a totally different organism".

The differences got greater over many millions of years, but your description of what happens in evolution is simply wrong.
 
Upvote 0

pshun2404

Newbie
Jan 26, 2012
6,026
620
✟78,299.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Sarah points out_-syapsid refers to the earliest mammals as well as NON-MAMMAL groups more closely related to mammals than other living amniotes. There are plenty of reptiles in that group.

Thanks for making my point it was indeed a poor example.

And though the result of many tangents leading away from the topic the point with the bats (like triops canciformus and many others) is that the evidence for sudden appearance is equally strong as for possible transition. The first forms (first birds, first fish, first mammals...) all show themselves as not being there and then they are (that is, in the fossil record) nut as you rightly point out that is not the only examples we interpret as evidence.

As J. Scott Turner admits in The Tinkerer's Accomplice:

"even the best established scientific principle contains, at its heart, something of a political consensus: we all will agree that principle X must be true...” and that “we enforce the consensus in many ways: by indoctrination of students, by systems of rewards and punishments”, which he defines ultimately to include funding for research! He says that within this process is the tendency for the “pernicious assumption to become unquestioned dogma.”

IMO this is the truth and so opens interpretation of evidence to being responsibly and critically questioned among those who see the same evidence as possibly indicating something not readily accepted by the majority.

Herein lays the major difficulty for thinkers like me, whether we are speaking theistically or biologically. For me consensus of opinion (regardless of the alleged authority of the group who’s pernicious assumptions are taken as dogmatic) is an inadequate defense. Whether it is millions of Catholics, Buddhists, or Darwinians who are insisting they are right, I am not impressed. For me they are just products or victims of the indoctrination and punishment reward system, not much more, leaving me open to question and reasons for and against any and all positions I find questionable.
 
Upvote 0

pshun2404

Newbie
Jan 26, 2012
6,026
620
✟78,299.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
What do you mean by "altogether different?" All organisms are basically sacks of eukaryotic cells in different arrangements. What's the difference?

Can you tell the difference between fish and birds? How about the difference between reptiles and mammals? It is that obvious from the observable facts....
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Can you tell the difference between fish and birds? How about the difference between reptiles and mammals? It is that obvious from the observable facts....
Of course there are observable differences. I'm asking you what makes them "altogether different." There are many basic physiological similarities as well. Would you say that a little castle made of legos was "altogether different" from a little house made of the same legos?
 
Upvote 0

pshun2404

Newbie
Jan 26, 2012
6,026
620
✟78,299.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That is quite the strawman. The theory of evolution never has the "transmutation of organisms into totally different organisms".

I think that we have been through this before. All of your descendants will be human. But let's look at your ancestors. You share a common ancestor with chimpanzees. That ancestor was an ape. The chimpanzee is an ape and you are still an ape. No "transmutation into a totally different organism".

You share a common ancestor with cats. That ancestor was a mammal. The cat is a mammal. You are a mammal. No "transmutation into a totally different organism".

You share a common ancestor with fish. That ancestor was a vertebrate, all fish are vertebrates, you are a vertebrate. No "transmutation into a totally different organism".

You share a common ancestor with squids. That ancestor is a member of anamalia. The squid is a member, and so are you. No "transmutation into a totally different organism".

You share a common ancestor with a banana. That ancestor was a eucaryote. You are a eucaryote. No "transmutation into a totally different organism".

The differences got greater over many millions of years, but your description of what happens in evolution is simply wrong.

Evolution is right, the default hypothesis I like to call "the ancestor of the gaps" is wrong (and not by any means proven to be true).
 
Upvote 0

pshun2404

Newbie
Jan 26, 2012
6,026
620
✟78,299.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Of course there are observable differences. I'm asking you what makes them "altogether different." There are many basic physiological similarities as well. Would you say that a little castle made of legos was "altogether different" from a little house made of the same legos?

Comparing living systems to legos? Really? Wow...yeah we are all made of molecules....

Oh that's right so are rocks...we must be rocks...

Not very sound logic...we are altogether different!
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Comparing living systems to legos? Really? Wow...yeah we are all made of molecules....

Oh that's right so are rocks...we must be rocks...

Not very sound logic...we are altogether different!
Be snarky if you like--we are used to it--but you still have not explained why mammals are altogether different from reptiles.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

PsychoSarah

Chaotic Neutral
Jan 13, 2014
20,521
2,609
✟95,463.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Thanks for the small book of standard run of the mill rhetoric Sarah...it would take a larger one to reply to all (much of which I 100% agree with). Your summation closed with "What persists in a population is not the organism with the fewest mutations, but the one which manages to make what it has work. What survives and reproduces successfully persists, no more, no less. This is why there are so many physical flaws in living things which persist; they simply weren't detrimental enough NOT to persist." Which I also agree with (though not solidly with the final statement). It is largely about adaptation and success...but still with such a proactive system of self-correction and preservation (produced by the coding for these proteins, i.e., the enzymes involved), it still seems highly unlikely that random mutation could cause such changes as the transmutation of organisms into all together different organisms. But thanks for responding...
Sorry, I'll try to keep my responses shorter. You are always free to highlight and back space any content you agree with rather than quote my entire post.

As for mutation creating "different" organisms... categories such as "species" are entirely human constructs and are not entirely accurate representations of living things due to the fact that population genetics are continuously changing. However, we have observed drastic changes in physiology due to mutation, as well as groups of organisms in the transition stage at which they are beginning to be unable to reproduce with each other. But, as to how changes in genes alter organisms, I bet you'll like this Chicken grows face of dinosaur

There have been recent studies into the relevance of viruses in evolution, and I would highly recommend looking into it. After all, many viruses insert themselves into DNA and, when they do, the mechanisms by which errors in DNA are fixed often can't remove them, resulting in huge mutations. Where viruses insert themselves isn't random and can interfere with genes.
 
Upvote 0

PsychoSarah

Chaotic Neutral
Jan 13, 2014
20,521
2,609
✟95,463.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Evolution is right, the default hypothesis I like to call "the ancestor of the gaps" is wrong (and not by any means proven to be true).
-_- we find plenty of intermediate fossils for other organisms, such as horses. Why assume these didn't exist for bats just because of the lack of fossils? If, say, horses evolved gradually over time, why wouldn't bats have experienced the same? Furthermore, you are ignoring the genetic evidence for evolution entirely. If bats didn't share ancestry with any other mammal groups, there'd be no reason for sharing so many of the same genes (especially not with how redundant codons are, you can get traits such as fur from a multitude of different base pair combinations, if one wished to create an organism from scratch with that trait).
 
Upvote 0

pshun2404

Newbie
Jan 26, 2012
6,026
620
✟78,299.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Be snarky if you like--we are used to it--but you still have not explained why mammals are altogether different from reptiles.

I was not being snarky at all. I was applying the exact same logic you did. Do I really need to list the multitude of differences between mammals and reptiles?
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
I was not being snarky at all. I was applying the exact same logic you did. Do I really need to list the multitude of differences between mammals and reptiles?
It doesn't matter, because as long as can list similarities (and there are many) they are not altogether different.
 
Upvote 0

PsychoSarah

Chaotic Neutral
Jan 13, 2014
20,521
2,609
✟95,463.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
I was not being snarky at all. I was applying the exact same logic you did. Do I really need to list the multitude of differences between mammals and reptiles?
There are far more similarities than differences in the physiology of vertebrates.

I have multiple images of pancreatic tissue of two different species. You don't need to be able to tell me what species these are, but try to separate the images into two groups, with all in each group belonging to the same species. You can just use the numbers to refer each image by (bottom left of image).

1.
06_fig05.jpg




2.
image18_w.jpg


3.
fig16.jpg


4.
334680_2607341.jpg
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

pshun2404

Newbie
Jan 26, 2012
6,026
620
✟78,299.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It doesn't matter, because as long as can list similarities (and there are many) they are not altogether different.

Semantics! Why make such an issue out of this word when you clearly understood what I was speaking of (but cannot admit). Yes we ARE all made of elements from the periodic table (yawn!), all made of molecules, and so on with more applications of set theory.
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Semantics! Why make such an issue out of this word when you clearly understood what I was speaking of (but cannot admit). Yes we ARE all made of elements from the periodic table (yawn!), all made of molecules, and so on with more applications of set theory.
So since we agree that there are differences and similarities between reptiles and mammals, what particular difference(s) were you thinking of when you said they were "altogether" different such that one could not evolve into the other?
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
To nit pick each and every instance of what would be involved in each individual case (like fish scales, turning into Amphibian skin, and so on down the line to mammalian skin) is a giant waste of time and a diversion from the point.
Which is...? Some of those things are well understood, and are not the vast qualitative changes you seem to be contemplating.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

pshun2404

Newbie
Jan 26, 2012
6,026
620
✟78,299.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Which is...? Some of those things are well understood, and are not the vast qualitative changes you seem to be contemplating.

Well it seems reasonable to me that the program inherent in the embryo of fish (for example) assures the end result of the early manifest genome (that in the end it will become a fish with appropriate scales, gills, fins, and so on). The genes that assure these very specific end results can be effected (mostly detrimentally) but in the end the result is some form of that fish that the DNA's unfolding stored information is there to produce. The same is true for birds, mammals, and so on.

The same is true for the genome of amphibians, reptiles, mammals, and so on...the function of preservation of the genomes integrity (the error correction mechanisms and processes) specific to the pre-coded end result (an adult fish or amphibian or reptile) with all its specific systems, organs, and form would not allow so many changes (even over vast lengths of time) to form an amphibian from fish and so on.

The systems and processes that assure every embryonic fish will become an adult FISH remains constant. When errors arise which remain, some of these may cause variance (or deformity) and the variety causing factors (genetic and environmental) may influence form but essentially it will always result in ONLY a variety of fish.
 
Upvote 0