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DNA preserves the integrity of its program

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by pshun2404, Aug 15, 2017.

  1. sfs

    sfs Senior Member

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    I can also tell the difference between Swedes and Pakistanis. I don't know what point you think you're making here.
     
  2. sfs

    sfs Senior Member

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    Again, the same is also true of Swedes and Pakistanis. Yet I assume you think they're related.
    Yeah, we get that you believe that. What you haven't done is offer any reason to think that you're correct in your belief.
     
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  3. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

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    So do you believe that the differences between reptiles and mammals are such that they cannot be brought about by a process of continuous change? Or that evolution isn't the process that could do it?
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
  4. pshun2404

    pshun2404 Newbie

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    Swedes and Pakastanis? Really? Another avoidance game? You know these are both the same animal...both humans...that is no comparison to the example I gave.
     
  5. pshun2404

    pshun2404 Newbie

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    If it happened, many of the factors of the evolution hypothesis could be involved, but nothing shows this did actually happen. The notion is precluded. It is a presupposition already believed which then effects and sometimes determines how evidence is interpreted. That is not true objectivity.

    Conclusion: Might have...could have...not DID! Now once one realizes this they can then look at what we actually can observe for data through fresh objective eyes.

    What is already accepted as true (though still not proven after 150 years), that was accepted as true long before any evidence that could be interpreted in that way (that is, "believed"), has shaped the interpretive conclusions.

    This is the same logic problem YECs demonstrate? They interpret the data through what they already have concluded to be true. So I will say (for the sake of discussion) that NO I do not believe reptiles became mammals by a process of slow continuous change.

    If they did then show me...

    Could they have? Might they have? Well sure anything is possible, but did they?
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
  6. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

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    So what do you think happened instead?
     
  7. pshun2404

    pshun2404 Newbie

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    SFS said "Yeah, we get that you believe that. What you haven't done is offer any reason to think that you're correct in your belief."
    Every scientist knows the final products (that one will be a fish and another a human with all their respective physiological systems and organs) are already pre-determined in the genetic code. That's not something I made up or "believe"...it is an actual fact.
    All human embryos eventually grow to produce human lungs, human brains, human skin, etc. All avian embryos eventually grow to produce wings, and beaks, etc....and the beat goes on.
     
  8. pshun2404

    pshun2404 Newbie

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    I do not care to speculate...the OP was about how I believe that the self correction system in the cell (DNA repair) preserves the specific creature's genome, therefore causing legitimate reason to question the idea of fish eventually became reptiles which eventually became mammals via the "slow continuous change" presupposition.

    With all the changes (genetic mutations), even introduced by intelligent designers (scientists), produced in labs...and all we see in nature (the Blacktraps, Darwin's Finches, and so on)...the actual data only demonstrates the production of variety of the same creature. So why swallow the presupposition whole? Why interpret what we KNOW, by what we have been taught to believe?
     
  9. PsychoSarah

    PsychoSarah Chaotic Neutral

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    It never stopped happening, like the growth of many mountain ranges, it continues and is measurable.


    Thanks to religious biases, the opposite is true. A lot of evidence for evolution was historically ignored thanks to people being unwilling to deviate from their creationist ideals. The bias is not in favor of evolution, it is just that the heavy bias against it has started to fade away as the evidence keeps piling up.

    -_- scientific findings don't use absolutes about positive claims, because by the nature of science, all scientific findings have the potential to be disproven, regardless as to the amount and strength of the supporting evidence or the absence of conflicting evidence.

    However, evolution experiments with bacteria demonstrate that evolutionary processes can result in enough genetic change for genus transitions. "But Sarah, they are still bacteria". No duh, bacteria is a kingdom level of classification. A transition of that scope would take far too long for human experimentation to cover it. However, species to species transitions are easy to observe, and we do get insight into genus transitions from time to time. There's no limit on mutation potential to be found.

    -_- Darwin shaped his theory AROUND EVIDENCE. If no evidence existed or observations could be made that suggested that populations change over time, Darwin would have never came up with his theory in the first place.

    Mammals that lay eggs have the same sort of eggs that reptiles do. The genetics match up with the idea that mammals and reptiles share ancestry. At least 1 modern reptile, the leatherback turtle, can regulate its body temperature at an intermediate level between that of mammals and other reptiles, and a few mammals have a lot of problems maintaining body temperature without the environmental temperature interfering with it. Synapsids had mammary glands, and they are derived from skin associated glands similar to apocrine glands (glands in your armpits and groin, and the major reason the armpits get smelly).

    Also, slow, continuous change as a model in evolution has been out of favor for quite some time. More recent findings suggest that evolutionary change can come in fits and bursts, as well as go periods of minimal change, depending on the environment and the organism in question. That is, how quickly evolutionary change occurs depends on how much the environment is changing, whether or not many species have recently gone extinct and left many niches open, and how adaptable to change a population already is. And when I say "more recent findings", I mean evidence from back before I was born.
     
  10. pshun2404

    pshun2404 Newbie

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    According to the Evolutionary Biologists and Geneticists of the Third Way Evolution movement, "The DNA record does not support the assertion that small random mutations are the main source of new and useful variations" (which is the idea of this thread) and believe there is "a need for a more open “third way” of discussing evolutionary change based on empirical observations."

    Actually the genetics do not support the notion of even a million random mutations producing anything new (like amphibians becoming reptiles, or eventually mammals)...it is how the data is being interpreted (based on the already held belief that they do transform over time).

    We must separate the actual data from the story we are told that this means. We are all living creatures so we have genetic material in common, but this does not automatically imply lineage. Animal life shares more in common than with plant life but that is because they are even less likely related in a lineal sense.
     
  11. Loudmouth

    Loudmouth Contributor

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    Where is the evidence to back these claims?

    No one is saying that homology implies lineage. What we are saying is that a phylogenetic signal implies lineage. It is the nested hierarchy which evidences evolution and common ancestry.
     
  12. pshun2404

    pshun2404 Newbie

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    For evidence of their claims you can examine their works...go to the website and begin there. No one said anyone had said "homology" indicated lineage...I said shared genetic segments do not indicate lineage. Also it is incorrect to conclude Nested Hierarchies do any such thing (which are based on homology which you admit does NOT prove lineage).


    Revell, Harmon, and Collar in Phylogenetic Signal, Evolutionary Process, and Rate (https://watermark.silverchair.com/a...f4KLZvUWTFhuac1LSzF29lLc-xmoipfCELE910G3nQni4 )



    Reveal that “Phylogenetic signal is a measure of the statistical dependence among species’ trait values due to their phylogenetic relationships. Although phylogenetic signal is a measure of pattern (statistical dependence), there has nonetheless been a widespread propensity in the literature to attribute this pattern to aspects of the evolutionary process or rate. This may be due, in part, to the perception that high evolutionary rate necessarily results in low phylogenetic signal; and, conversely, that low evolutionary rate or stabilizing selection results in high phylogenetic signal (due to the resulting high resemblance between related species).

    So what is called “phylogenetic signal” is based on one’s statistical analysis where in one must attribute these patterns to the evolutionary process. The conclusions are due to one’s perception and in this application even among people who believe it is relevant to lineage they differ drastically among themselves (if it is a valuable as an actual indicator does the high cause the low or the low cause the high?).
     
  13. Loudmouth

    Loudmouth Contributor

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    Haven't you examined their work? Can't you present some of it?

    Nested hierarchies are based on similarities and differences. Why is it incorrect to cite a nested hierarchy as evidence for shared ancestry? After all, we can observe modern life creating nested hierarchies right in front of us through the mechanisms of evolution.


    If there was no evolutionary process, then there would be no phylogenetic signal when you use these analyses. That's the point. For example, when you analyze things like cars for a phylogenetic signal, there is no statistically significant signal.

    What they are saying is that high rates of evolution can produce homoplasies which can mask a phylogenetic signal.
     
  14. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

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    How do error correction mechanisms jive with the claims of many prominent creationists that God cursed us to have mutations?

    The crack science experts at the Institute for Creation Science tell us that:

    "The curse God placed on all of creation because of Adam’s disobedience led to disease and death."

    Cancer Research Confirms the Curse


    And how is this all-loving God's 'curse' manifested (let us ignore, for now, the repugnant immorality of 'cursing' all humanity for the 'sin' of one human...), according to ICR?

    "Cancer occurs when pockets of cells proliferate out of control, a growth that DNA copying errors sometimes trigger. Living cells copy their DNA just before they divide. Human DNA strands have millions of specific chemicals, like letters in an encyclopedia, that record information for core life processes. Precision protein machines copy DNA “letters” at jet-engine speeds, yet perform so efficiently that only about one wrong letter arises among a billion. But even these few mutations can garble DNA’s information enough to lead to cancer, especially in tissues that undergo many cell divisions within a human lifetime."


    So, did God 'curse' us with mutations, or 'save' us with mutation-correction enzymes?

    Please explain this internally contradictory creationist conundrum.
     
  15. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

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    It is so awesome that you are able to do keyword searches and find quotes that always seem to prop up your cause. Until they are looked into a bit more.


    In a more hands-on approach, such as what I did when doing phylogenetic analyses, 'phylogenetic signal' was what we called lots of unique mutations - noncoding regions, largely unconstrained by conservation, tends to accumulate more mutations than coding regions and thus, in our practical view, provided more phylogenetic signal.

    As seems to be the case with those doing keyword-search science, the trees obscure the forest view.

    The use of 'DNA homologies' is, after all, a tested method, shown to recover known and experimentally generated phylogenies. I believe that several examples of this have been posted on this forum, earlier in the summer perhaps?
    Semantic arguments and contrary assertions will not erase that.
     
  16. pshun2404

    pshun2404 Newbie

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    Open a thread to discuss this off topic subject. I am sure you will get many takers.
     
  17. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

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    That is not accurate.

    The abstract ends with "For these reasons, we recommend against interpretations of evolutionary process or rate based on estimates of phylogenetic signal"

    They are arguing against making a linkage between evolutionary rates and phylogenetic signal.


    When I was working on molecular phylogenies, we literally did not care about rates (within reason). We knew that noncoding DNA accumulated phylogenetic signal because it is under less constraint (for the most part). We knew that function (e.g., of pseudogenes) was IRRELEVANT to their use as strong phylogenetic signal-producers because they too were able to accumulate more mutation.

    These are things that one does not pick up doing keyword searches or dredging through YEC websites to find.
     
  18. PsychoSarah

    PsychoSarah Chaotic Neutral

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    On a cellular scale, mammalian cells are often near indistinguishable. Mouse brain cells and human brain cells are so similar that I can't reliably search for picture comparisons without labels existing on the images themselves.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    So, I'll tell you, this last picture is a human nerve cell. Try and find the other picture/s among these that are human based on it.
    [​IMG]
     
  19. Astrophile

    Astrophile Newbie

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    Suppose that what you say is true, that the first bats appeared without parents or other ancestors by some unknown process. The fact remains that the first fossil bats date back to the Early Eocene epoch, about 52 million years ago - http://www.batworld.com/bat-evolution and Eocene - Wikipedia . However, there are about 490 million years worth of fossiliferous rock systems extending back to the beginning of the Cambrian period, when the first fossils of animals with readily preserved hard shells appeared. However the first bats came into existence, they did not appear until long after non-avian dinosaurs, ammonites, ichthyosaurs, and trilobites had become extinct.

    This means that the sudden appearance of bats doesn't give any support to a creation of the universe in six days, or the creation of animals in one day, nor does it support 'flood geology'. How, then, do you interpret the sudden appearance of bats in the context of the whole fossil record?
     
  20. sfs

    sfs Senior Member

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    No. Your argument about DNA applied equally well to Swedes and Pakistanis.
    I also know that humans and fish are both vertebrates. Two humans are animals that differ genetically. A human and a fish are animals that differ genetically. Why does your argument apply to one pair and not the other?
     
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