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D'Ann

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Miss Shelby said:
I think that the thread OP was requesting the perspective of divorced Catholics. While there was nothing wrong with any of the answers, it appeared to me that the thread was moving in the direction of married Catholics sharing what has held their marriage together. That is a good thing. We don't want people to end up divorced afterall.

That's true... LOL :)

But there is something to be said from learning from the perspective of the divorced person. Just like you said, sometimes it's uncomfortable for people to talk to divorcees about the things they are going through and it's also hard for the divorcee to talk about what they are going through as well.

ONE THING I DO KNOW about divorced people, especially recently divorced people, is that they often go through a period where they feel like a failure because of their divorce, even if it was not their fault. EVEN THOUGH it's a big fat lie from the devil, they believe the lie that IF they would have done something differently, things would have worked out.

sweetcaroline even has the extra burden attached with her parents telling her her weight had something to do with it. :doh:

Yes, you are soooo right in this. I think part of the suffering and the hurt is due to how some view themselves as failing. It's not a matter of failure. Divorcees did not fail... sometimes bad things happen to good people and it has nothing to do with something that they did wrong or didn't do right. It is a lie from the devil that causes so much hurt and disappointment as you have said. More reason for us all to pray for one another.


Anyhoo... my concern when I initially read this thread was that if there are divorced people feeling this way or who have felt this way, and then the first thing they read in this thread is advice and comments from married people about what NOT to do (contracept, and from married people at that) if they don't want the marriage to end in divorce, it just made me wonder if that wouldn't add to that feeling of failure, if anyone happened to be experiencing that.

I definitely understand this concept. Well, maybe my next statement might help...

My husband and I were not Catholic for most of our marriage. We eloped and used contraceptives... despite eloping and using contraceptives, we managed to stay together. Of course, now being Catholic and being spiritually on the same page has strengthen and helped our marriage... and yes, I have regrets about the contraceptive usage... I feel like a failure... LOL :) and I regret the children that I could of had... and don't.

My point is that some marriages no matter what they do or don't do... some will make it and due to no one's failure ... some marriages will end in divorce and it has little to do with what kind of contraceptives were used or not used. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.

Then again maybe I am just being overly sensitive.

And it really was my impression that the OP wanted to hear from divorcee's, perhaps as a way to pinpoint what the Church can do to help them after the fact, as well as to learn what might have prevented the divorce in the first place.

Michelle

I don't think that you are being overly sensitive... I hope whatever has been written here is found to be helpful.

God's Peace,

Debbie
 
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Miss Shelby

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My husband and I were not Catholic for most of our marriage. We eloped and used contraceptives... despite eloping and using contraceptives, we managed to stay together.
My husband and I were lapsed, non practicing, backslidden apostates when we first got together, we lived in sin, we married civilly, we contracepted. Oh I could go on and on. It is only by the grace of God that our marriage is getting stronger and that we are able to grow together spiritually at this point. That isn't something that I will ever take for granted. We were so close to divorce at one time, it isn't even funny.

Maybe another reason that I immediately became interested in this thread is because Dr. Ray was talking about it on the radio yesterday. :D He is awesome by the way here is his link. http://www.drray.com/

Sorry if I came off harsh, D'Ann, I didn't mean to. I know everybody means well, and so do I.

Michelle
 
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marciadietrich

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Not divorced, not yet at least. Was reading in the Catechism earlier today and this below bolded struck me in particular.

2365 Fidelity expresses constancy in keeping one's given word. God is faithful. The Sacrament of Matrimony enables man and woman to enter into Christ's fidelity for his Church. Through conjugal chastity, they bear witness to this mystery before the world.

St. John Chrysostom suggests that young husbands should say to their wives: I have taken you in my arms, and I love you, and I prefer you to my life itself. For the present life is nothing, and my most ardent dream is to spend it with you in such a way that we may be assured of not being separated in the life reserved for us. . . . I place your love above all things, and nothing would be more bitter or painful to me than to be of a different mind than you.150
 
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Song of Songs

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D'Ann said:
These questions were directed to divorced Catholics, right?
--Michelle

Maybe so, is there a problem with my answers?

Actually, anyone who has lived through a divorce as a child has a wealth of insight on this subject. Thanks for all your input, Debbie.

Song of Songs
 
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Song of Songs

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marciadietrich said:
St. John Chrysostom suggests that young husbands should say to their wives: I have taken you in my arms, and I love you, and I prefer you to my life itself. For the present life is nothing, and my most ardent dream is to spend it with you in such a way that we may be assured of not being separated in the life reserved for us. . . . I place your love above all things, and nothing would be more bitter or painful to me than to be of a different mind than you.


Beautiful quote from a radical saint! Thanks for sharing this.

Song of Songs

"To be a witness is a living mystery. It means to live one's life in such a way that it would not make sense if God did not exist."
 
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Song of Songs

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Shelb5 said:
I think you misunderstood DF, he said contracepting couples, not NFP couples. You can certainly use NFP as contraception and it's the mentality of with holding from one another that leads to divorce and feeds into the control freak personality.

If you are using NFP just to postpone a pregnancy and not because you are anti baby and/ or are forbidden by the other spouse not to become pregnant and you do not contracept but give your whole self away one to the other in marriage then it is hard to be a control freak, really.

Shelb,

I certainly did not start this thread to have anyone "preach" or rebuke people suffering from divorce. It sounds like your comment wounded at least one heart. Please respect the intention of the thread and allow those who have been through this experience to do the talking.

Thanks.

Song of Songs
 
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Song of Songs

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RESOURCES FOR SINGLE PARENTS

Dr. James Dobson's Focus on the Family organization publishes a magazine to minister to Single Parents: "Single Parent Magazine". (You can get a free issue by signing their guestbook on their website: www.family.org) Focus on the Family also has much ministry available for Single Parents at the following webpage.

http://search.family.org/query.cfm?qt=single+parents&style=family&Search.x=23&Search.y=7

Their topics cover:

Successful Single Parenting
Disciplining your Child as a Single Parent
Finances for Single Parents
Helping Children Survive Divorce
Summer Fun for Single Parent Families
Building Memories in Your Single Parent Home
... and much more

Focus on the Family also has many suggestions for those who are not divorced to assist the Single Parent families in our midst. I will make another post later with these.

Blessings,

Song of Songs

"To be a witness is a living mystery. It means to live one's life in such a way that it would not make sense if God did not exist."
 
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marciadietrich said:
Not divorced, not yet at least. Was reading in the Catechism earlier today and this below bolded struck me in particular.

2365 Fidelity expresses constancy in keeping one's given word. God is faithful. The Sacrament of Matrimony enables man and woman to enter into Christ's fidelity for his Church. Through conjugal chastity, they bear witness to this mystery before the world.

St. John Chrysostom suggests that young husbands should say to their wives: I have taken you in my arms, and I love you, and I prefer you to my life itself. For the present life is nothing, and my most ardent dream is to spend it with you in such a way that we may be assured of not being separated in the life reserved for us. . . . I place your love above all things, and nothing would be more bitter or painful to me than to be of a different mind than you.150

That's kind of what my priest told me. He said that in the bible Jesus says "'you should love your spouce as I have loved you.' And how did Christ love His church?" And my priest points to the cross on the wall. That sets a pretty high standard.
 
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NPH

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Well, i'm the child of a divorced family (my mother was divorced 3 times actually) and have been through divorce myself.

Starting from my own divorce, I was Christian at the time (though Baptist, not Catholic) but not terribly devoted in my faith. I married someone who, as far as I can remember, was not very religious at all. We used contraception, she even had those implant things for a time to prevent pregnancy. Looking back, it's easy to see how contraception made the marriage more of a sexual arrangement than any real attempt to start a family.

But what I think I learned most from that first marriage, was that a strong marriage starts with the parents of the couple. Of course there was lip service paid during my youth to the importance of marriage, but nothing near like what I understand it to be now. Not only did my mother set a horrible example with 3 divorces of her own, but I feel that if she had remained Catholic and instilled in me those beliefs and the seriousness of them things might have been different.

Marrying someone of your own faith preferrably, understanding the moral pit of contraceptives, the serious and Sacramental nature of marriage, taking the time to find someone who understands these things well also (rather than the first person who tickles your fancy) ... all of this can make a huge difference if you are taught it while growing up.

In our society, we keep hearing nonsense adages like "Love conquers all" or "all we need is love" as if Love is some mystical force that makes everything work and requires no real effort on our part.

In short, the drive in our society to make marriage nothing more than a sexual contract needs to be counteracted by parents. Don't let the TV society tell your kids what makes a good marriage, because it doesn't work. They need to learn that marriage isn't just about me me me, and what makes me feel happy.

Now, I can't say exactly what led to my mother's divorce from my father. But I do know from her that afterwards she felt shunned by the Catholic Church, particularly the people around her. She was made to feel as if there was something wrong with her and that she was unwanted.

Because of that, she eventually left the Catholic Church and turned to the Baptist church, taking her family with her. It is only by the Grace of God that I have found my way back to the Catholic Church, but that leaves the rest of my family not in the church and barely (if at all) even holding to their current religion.

That is such a shame, that because one group of people did not reach out to someone in need and help her through that time of seeking an annulment and reinforcing her faith in God and the Church there is now an entire family that is falling into the same difficulties in not just marriage, but growing up lacking any faith at all!

Parents, hammer home to your children how serious marriage is and what God expects of them. Christians, help your brothers and sisters when this unfortunate event occurs and make them feel as welcome and loved by the Church as they should be.

Family and Community can make all the difference in selecting the right person for marriage and can contribute a great deal to the strength of that marriage.
 
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bostonlass

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VNVnation said:
But what I think I learned most from that first marriage, was that a strong marriage starts with the parents of the couple. Of course there was lip service paid during my youth to the importance of marriage, but nothing near like what I understand it to be now. Not only did my mother set a horrible example with 3 divorces of her own, but I feel that if she had remained Catholic and instilled in me those beliefs and the seriousness of them things might have been different.

Things may have been different but they may not have. Both my ex husband and my parents have been married for almost 60 years now and both sets of parents are Catholic. The only thing I can think of in that regard is that his father never went to church. It was accepted and assumed in that family that the men didn't need to go to church. I have no clue where that came from but that is the way it was in that family. Us women would go to church and they would stay at home getting things ready for Sunday dinner.

That doesn't explain me though...my parents both were devout Catholics and I still made a bad decision. My mom never really cared so much who I married though as long as he had a good job and didn't have a police record. Maybe if my parents had been more stern about who I dated things would have been different, i.e. insisting that I marry someone who is actively a practicing Catholic.
 
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NPH

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sweetcaroline said:
That doesn't explain me though...my parents both were devout Catholics and I still made a bad decision. My mom never really cared so much who I married though as long as he had a good job and didn't have a police record. Maybe if my parents had been more stern about who I dated things would have been different, i.e. insisting that I marry someone who is actively a practicing Catholic.

Actually, you hit quite rightly on what I was saying. It's not just enough to make sure they have a good job and aren't a troublemaker. We parents need to raise our children with a firm understanding of what God wants marriage to be, and He's not that worried about where we work :p

Trying to put what i'm thinking into words isn't easy on this, but I think what i'm saying is that it's more important to emphasize the spiritual seriousness of marriage as opposed to the purely material matters such as jobs. If we grew up knowing how serious marriage is (in the way that, as adults, we understand it to be now) it could lead us to making much better decisions when we consider what is important in a future spouse.
 
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dawnsday

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Being a child of Divorce, (my mother was divorced twice, not her choosing, the first man left her for what we believe is a secret homosexual lifestyle, the second was a pervert drug abusing poop head)...this is what i can say.

First is that nothing my mother did could have prevented the divorces...attempts to conform to the men's wants and desires only led them to create more flaws and excuses. Second is that it directly effected me in a way that is both positive and negitive...i have been engaged twice, and left both of them when i saw their true colors...that's the positive, that when i marry i will marry for life no matter what and it instilled a fear in me that i will not marry unless completely confident i know the man and i will not only be "in love" but be best friends after the looks, the youth, the energy and the romance fades. the negitive side is both the guys i dated were like replica's of my father (minus the homosexuality)...drinkers or drug users, selfish hateful and weak little babies...but i was attracted to their sense of humor (my dad if nothing else is HILARIOUS)...

the bottom line that i have learned is that everyone hides pieces of them self, but they can't hide it forever...when you marry someone you must know that it's possible you don't know him or her at all...that you won't see it for eleven (her first marriage) or six (her second marriage) years or even more...you have to understand the risks and the downsides of marriages and really really think those through...
 
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NPH

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dawnsday said:
So I guess NFP didn't work so well?

Depends, how long did sweetcaroline practice NFP before she became pregnant?

Considering that no method of avoiding pregnancy is even better than 99% effective, if NFP worked for the best part of a year then it worked as well or better than could be hoped for ... statistically speaking :)

I would see it not that NFP (or anything) didn't work that well, but that God wanted for her to have a child then and so she did. When I first learned that my wife was pregnant I was somewhat dismayed (and excited to of course) because I had no desire at that time for children and really preferred to avoid it. Now, in hindsight, i'm so terribly grateful for my son and how he changed my life and even helped bring me closer to God. God knew when it was the right time for me to become a father, even if I didn't think so at the time.
 
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Cosmic Charlie

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Dominus Fidelis said:
Correction...

Since the divorce rate for contracepting Catholics parallels that of the unchurched population in the USA...

NFP users enjoy a 2% rate of divorce.

Could you source this for me please, because the last time I asked the CCL (mid-year 2004) they didn't have or know of a scienfic study on this subject
 
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Song of Songs

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VNVnation said:
Now, I can't say exactly what led to my mother's divorce from my father. But I do know from her that afterwards she felt shunned by the Catholic Church, particularly the people around her. She was made to feel as if there was something wrong with her and that she was unwanted. Because of that, she eventually left the Catholic Church ... Family and Community can make all the difference in selecting the right person for marriage and can contribute a great deal to the strength of that marriage.

VNVnation, you have been through a lot of emotional turmoil.

Yes, Catholic Church communities' shunning of divorcees is a common occurrence we see in our lay ministry. Yet the Good Shepherd never allows even one of His sheep to be lost. So as a Church community, we need to have the Lord's compassion in action for all the Single Parents among us. Below are some suggestions of ways we ALL can help.

This FAQ was written by Dr. James Dobson (founder of Focus on the Family) -- ways the Church community can help Single Parents:

Question: What encouragement can you offer to those of us who are single parents? Each day seems more difficult than the one before it. Can you help plead our case to those who don't understand what we're facing?

In my view, single parents have the toughest job in the universe! Hercules himself would tremble at the range of responsibilities people like you must handle every day. It's difficult enough for two parents with a solid marriage and stable finances to satisfy the demands of parenting. For a single mother or father to do that task excellently over a period of years is evidence of heroism.

The greatest problem faced by single parents, especially a young mother like yourself, is the overwhelming amount of work to be done. Earning a living, fixing meals, caring for kids, helping with homework, cleaning house, paying bills, repairing the car (if she has one), handling insurance, and doing the banking, the income tax, marketing, etc., can require 12 hours a day or more. She must continue that schedule seven days per week all year long. Some have no support from family or anyone else. It's enough to exhaust the strongest and healthiest woman. Then where does she find time and energy to meet her social and emotional needs -- and how does she develop the friendships on which that part of her life depends? This job is no easier for most fathers, who may find themselves trying to comb their daughter's hair and explain menstruation to their preteen girls.

There is only one answer to the pressures single parents face. It is for the rest of us to give them a helping hand.

• They need highly practical assistance, including the friendship of two-parent families who will take their children on occasion to free up some time.

• Single moms need the help of young men who will play catch with their fatherless boys and take them to the school soccer game.

• They need men who will fix the brakes on the Chevy and patch the leaky roof.

• They need prayer partners who will hold them accountable in their walk with the Lord and bear their burdens with them.

• They need an extended family of believers to care for them, lift them up, and remind them of their priorities.

• Perhaps most important, single parents need to know that the Lord is mindful of their circumstances.

Clearly, I believe it is the responsibility of those of us in the church to assist you with your parenting responsibilities. This requirement is implicit in Jesus' commandment that we love and support the needy in all walks of life. He said, "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me" (Matthew 25:40, KJV). That puts it in perspective. Our effort on behalf of a fatherless or motherless child is seen by Jesus Christ as a direct service to Himself!

The biblical assignment is even more explicitly stated in James 1:27: "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

Thankfully, churches today are becoming more sensitive to the needs of single parents. More congregations are offering programs and ministries geared to the unique concerns of those with special needs. I'd advise every single parent to find such a church or fellowship group and make himself or herself at home there. Christian fellowship and support can be the key to survival.

Those among my readers who want to help mothers or fathers raising kids alone might start by giving them a subscription to the "Single Parent Family" edition of our Focus on the Family magazine (below).

More...
• Request a complimentary subscription to the Single-Parent version of Focus on the Family Magazine when you sign our guestbook.
• Check out Focus on Your Child's Hot Topics Web area exclusively for single parents.
• Learn how to disciple your child as a single parent.
• Visit the Focus on Your Child Web site for age-specific advice and encouragement.

Dr. Dobson is founder and chairman of the board of Focus on the Family, a non-profit Christian ministry dedicated to the preservation of the family.

• How do I handle parenting differences with my ex-wife?

• As a single mom, how can I avoid the anxiety I feel at sending my children to stay with their father?

• How can single mothers raise their sons to be healthy men?


Copyright © 2005 Focus on the Family. www.family.org
 
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bostonlass

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• They need highly practical assistance, including the friendship of two-parent families who will take their children on occasion to free up some time.

I don't get any of this, but I do get help from my sister who comes over every other Sunday and spends about an hour with the girls allowing me to go food shopping.

• Single moms need the help of young men who will play catch with their fatherless boys and take them to the school soccer game.

Luckily we're all girls. :D


• They need men who will fix the brakes on the Chevy and patch the leaky roof.

A friend of mine at work is a single mom. She just moved into a home and her neighbor mows her lawn for her and even put down mulch in the spring! In the winter he snowblows her out. She's very lucky!!! I on the other hand have healthy men in their 40's across, next to and diagonally from my home and not one has even so much as offered to help with big packages. I found a wonderful service called "rent a hubby".....not it's not THAT kind of service ;) .....I've used them for different things and I bit the bullet last year after being out with a bad back from shoveling and hired a landscaper to mow my lawn and plow and shovel me out.

• They need prayer partners who will hold them accountable in their walk with the Lord and bear their burdens with them.

Guess that's you guys! ^_^

• They need an extended family of believers to care for them, lift them up, and remind them of their priorities.
Hmmmm... guess this could be my parents who will call me on Saturday morning at 7am when I don't have the kids to make sure I'm gonna go organize my garage.:doh:

• Perhaps most important, single parents need to know that the Lord is mindful of their circumstances.

:clap: :amen: :clap:
 
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bostonlass

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VNVnation said:
Actually, you hit quite rightly on what I was saying. It's not just enough to make sure they have a good job and aren't a troublemaker. We parents need to raise our children with a firm understanding of what God wants marriage to be, and He's not that worried about where we work :p

Trying to put what i'm thinking into words isn't easy on this, but I think what i'm saying is that it's more important to emphasize the spiritual seriousness of marriage as opposed to the purely material matters such as jobs. If we grew up knowing how serious marriage is (in the way that, as adults, we understand it to be now) it could lead us to making much better decisions when we consider what is important in a future spouse.

I've always tried to convince my mom of this. You'd think at 39 years of age I'd be able to make my own choices without worrying what my parents think but those old cobwebs are hard to get out. I'm doing it though and I know that once I fully surrender my life all will be well.
 
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D'Ann

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Miss Shelby said:
My husband and I were lapsed, non practicing, backslidden apostates when we first got together, we lived in sin, we married civilly, we contracepted. Oh I could go on and on. It is only by the grace of God that our marriage is getting stronger and that we are able to grow together spiritually at this point. That isn't something that I will ever take for granted. We were so close to divorce at one time, it isn't even funny.

I rejoice with you. God's grace is beautiful and amazing and only by God's grace is there any real hope and/or strength and/or faith, especially, when it comes to marriage and/or having babies and/or the struggles of life in general.

Maybe another reason that I immediately became interested in this thread is because Dr. Ray was talking about it on the radio yesterday. :D He is awesome by the way here is his link. http://www.drray.com/[/QUOTE]

I love listening to Dr. Ray. Isn't that how God works? We hear something on the radio and here we are on this thread... God works in mysterious ways. When I get home from work... I'll listen to the link. Infact, I'm going to copy it and put it in my folder for safe keeping. Thank you.

Sorry if I came off harsh, D'Ann, I didn't mean to. I know everybody means well, and so do I.

Michelle

No need to be sorry, you didn't come off harsh. Besides, you had a good and valid point. I didn't want to admit it though... LOL :)

God's Peace,

Debbie
 
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