Divorced..and feel a calling to pastor

dwhitaker said:

We need to be a whole lot more about grace...and less about our ability to appear perfect. I grieve when the same ones who argue that a divorced man does not have the right to be in the pulpit, have a pastor, are a pastor, or know a pastor that has been married to the same woman forever...but his heart is not right and has no business being in the pulpit.

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Many of these men grope, flirt and otherwise push the boundary of the marriage covenant all the time...... yet, they are considered "worthy" just because they've been married to the same woman all this time...... YUCK... just ask their wives.


I would much rather have a real and godly man as my pastor, who may have had a blemish or two in his past, than a self-righteous and pompous braggart.

Honibee said:

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Hi Breathing-

Growth really isn't an indication of God's blessing. Remember in the wilderness, when the children of Israel demanded meat, instead of manna? God gave them what they wanted- but the result was LEANESS TO THEIR SOULS.

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As in blessings, I would not stop at growth in the church alone, but in individual believers. I have seen cancer healed, and the lame walk. If this is not of God then who?

My church has never 'desired' growth as in physical. We may have thought about it but it was never really a concern of ours. What of Mary Magdalene? Would you say God could not use her because she was once a prostitute? Adulterer is said right there. She was demon possessed?

To God all sin is the same. If you sin a little, you've sinned a lot. Stealing a piece of candy from your boss is going to get you thrown in Hell just as fast as someone who has been married twice. Look.

1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Please don't put people above others because of what sins they have commited the Bible says that we should look at ourselves less then others.

Look at this verse.

Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

I'm sure there are many people who have already commited adultery. That shouldn't be the problem, the problem is are they still commiting it, and have they taken it to God in forgiveness.

breathingforJC said:

As in blessings, I would not stop at growth in the church alone, but in individual believers. I have seen cancer healed, and the lame walk. If this is not of God then who?

My church has never 'desired' growth as in physical. We may have thought about it but it was never really a concern of ours. What of Mary Magdalene? Would you say God could not use her because she was once a prostitute? Adulterer is said right there. She was demon possessed?

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But was Mary Magdalene turning tricks after she came to know Christ? If she did are we free to sin as believers, and if she did not shouldn't we do likewise?

breathingforJC said:

To God all sin is the same. If you sin a little, you've sinned a lot. Stealing a piece of candy from your boss is going to get you thrown in Hell just as fast as someone who has been married twice. Look.

1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Please don't put people above others because of what sins they have commited the Bible says that we should look at ourselves less then others.

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This is the biggest misconception out there. And boy is it out there. Not all sin is the same. Jesus says as much to Pilate when Pilate says, 'don't you know I have the authority to have you killed.' and Jesus replies, 'yes, and those who you answer to are guilty of a greater sin.'

breathingforJC said:

Look at this verse.

Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

I'm sure there are many people who have already commited adultery. That shouldn't be the problem, the problem is are they still commiting it, and have they taken it to God in forgiveness.

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I think lust happens alot less often than many people think it does.

If we take what Jesus says seriously many divorced and remarried people are living in a perpetual state of adultery as they are not divorced in God's eyes. 'He/she who marries a divorced person is guilty of adultery.' The question isn't 'Does God forgive sin?' so much as 'Does God forgive sin we knowingly plan to engage in day after day because we refuse to follow his word when we should know better?' ie Divorce for frivilous reasons, legally marry a trophy wife and live in sin...

Autumnleaf said:

But was Mary Magdalene turning tricks after she came to know Christ? If she did are we free to sin as believers, and if she did not shouldn't we do likewise?



This is the biggest misconception out there. And boy is it out there. Not all sin is the same. Jesus says as much to Pilate when Pilate says, 'don't you know I have the authority to have you killed.' and Jesus replies, 'yes, and those who you answer to are guilty of a greater sin.'




I think lust happens alot less often than many people think it does.

If we take what Jesus says seriously many divorced and remarried people are living in a perpetual state of adultery as they are not divorced in God's eyes. 'He/she who marries a divorced person is guilty of adultery.' The question isn't 'Does God forgive sin?' so much as 'Does God forgive sin we knowingly plan to engage in day after day because we refuse to follow his word when we should know better?' ie Divorce for frivilous reasons, legally marry a trophy wife and live in sin...

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The idea that those who divorce and remarry are perpetually sinning the sin of adultery is absolutely false, my friend, and for good reason. First, there is only one unpardonable (unforgiveable sin), which Jesus spoke to the those who denied the power of God's Spirit. Don't put a divorced person who is remarried, perhaps to a wonderful Christian woman in the category of living in perpetual sin. When a man is bound in marriage to the woman he remarries, he is not to divorce her and go back to the former woman. The Bible is clear that his former wife is not considered his wife and that point (Deut. 24:3-4)
Does a man who takes another man's wife commit adultery, yes...but whether it is a lesser or greater sin, no sin is so large that God's grace does not cleanse and pardon. Was David living in perpetual adultery, and therefore unqualified to minister as King?

I agree that God does not provide a blanket forgiveness to allow us to willfully sin day after day. In an earlier post, I mentioned that God does not give grace so that sin may abound (Paul's argument)...and the Bible teaches that any man who willfully continues or practices sin day after day is most likely, a non-believer, he has not been born of God (1 John 3:4), and yes, living in obedience for Christ should be true of every believer...however...we are not perfect until we are glorified and we will sin...that is why Jesus said "if any man sin, we have an advocate (a counselor that comes to our defense) with the Father, Jesus Christ, the rigteous one" (1 John 2:1). The Bible assumes that despite ourselves, we will sin...that is where grace comes in. Any teaching that assumes that we are sinless as Christians is false teaching.
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us " (1 John 1:8) Divorce happens. To assume that every divorce is premeditated willfulness against God is to assume incorrectly and presumptuously. People have divorce happen to them. Some have marriages where the spouse is abusive..;and the marriage is hurting the children....(we must guard against reacting in those marriages and taking matters into our own hands) but many end up in divorce and remarry and find a spouse that loves the Lord and is good to the children,,,and is living for Christ. I have heard these same old Phariseeical teachings again and again, and how the letter of the law is upheld as truth, but it is a gross interpretation of a law that Jesus never intended through love, grace and the spirit.



The Bible does not teach what you are sharing.

David Whitaker, ThD, PhD

I posted something at another forum I think would apply here as well. I submit this in christian love, and genuine concern:

Let me present a word picture if I may, based on Ephesians 5:23-33.

Consider a healthy human body that has no obstacles to it's good health. In this state, if the body gets cold, hungary, tired, etc.- the natural flow of intimate interplay between the Head and it's body, takes care of any threat to the body's well being. At the first hunger pang, without thought from the body, the head is signaled and instruction begins, in order that the body may be nurished. Clearly, the body is not able to care for itself- it needs the head to instruct it. Likewise, the head has no way of experiencing it's purposes, it's hopes, it's dreams without the body to carry these out.

Suppose the head is severed from the body. Can it exist? Can the body exist? No.

Jesus is our head, we His body. He provides life and nurishment to us, and we carry out His purposes. In this flow of intimate interplay, we thrive and exist, His purposes are fulfilled. When we lack, our Head provides. When we were guilty of transgression, HE died our death, and cleansed us. HE DID NOT SEVER US FROM HIMSELF- OR PUT US AWAY. Had He done so, we His body- would not exist.

The husband is the head of the wife. He is responsible to provide nurturing love to his wife- even if she becomes defiled. Severed from his love, there is no life. Love is an influence, that over time- brings healing, cleansing, nurturning, forgiveness- our own salvation teaches us that.

Suppose the severed head is sewn to ANOTHER body- does it begin to exist again? Does the body?

Much of the m/d/r debate is centered around the erring spouse and the assumed rights to judge that spouse. According to Ephesians 5, there is a better way, shown to us by Jesus' example.

Something to consider...

Suppose the head is severed from the body. Can it exist? Can the body exist? No.

This statement is true...however, I have a 58 year old friend who had a heart transplant..he received a heart transplant from a 2o something year old about 3 years ago.

Good thing Jesus looks at our heart and not our head.

walkin2e

Wow, I've been gone from this thread a long time!

I have to say this.

I can understand both sides of the coin and their points of view.

The only thing that I can say is this.

That we as believers in Jesus Christ, through constant reading of His word, prayer, and worship, need to follow the path that we believe He has laid before us. It is not for anyone outside of our own heart to judge or say otherwise, for Jesus will take care of that.

Finding a pastor that feeds our soul through the word of God is so very important and I for one believe that He will present a pastor to feed everyones soul, it is our responsibility to seek them out. This pastor will obviously be different for everyone, for we all have different needs and expectations. The most important aspect of this whole thing is that we stay connected with our Father.

Though I've been divorced 2 times and am now married for my third and final time, I KNOW that I am on His path. How do I know? I know because He has placed me here. Not by my doing, not by my desires, not by my will, but by His. I am doing so much more with my life now, than I was before I excepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and my Savior. My life is so much harder than it was before I met Jesus Christ. But my payment is so much greater. A sense of peace, love, forgivness, exceptance, just to name a few payments.

I know that He has forgiven me, the hardest part for me was forgiving myself. Am I sorry about my 2 divorces, absolutely. Was there anything that I could have done to prevent them? This I doubt, as the relationships where not of God and did not include Him, by our choice. The marriage I have now, is of God and does include Him. The day I met my wife, God was playing match maker that day, this I know for a fact. Through this introduction, I not only met my soulmate, but my Father as well.

The relationship did not start out on His path however, but He took the steps necessary to guide us appropriately and lovingly.

So here I am. I give my first message on Sunday the 30th. It is a message for Him, by Him. I am the result of His work. I am where I am because of Him. The times I've tried to accomplish things on my own, I've failed. The times I've relied on Him, we've been successful.

If we close our hearts to all that He has to offer us, we miss out on so much. The main focus has to be Him. How many others do you know of who have sacrificed their Son for our salvation?

I know of only one, God.

His Glory!

Your brother,
Jim

Great testimony, Jim!!


The sad part is that there are many, just like you, who would be forbidden to preach and pastor because of your 'history'. But an ex-drunk or druggie would be allowed. Very sad.

I believe the man-made rules are part of satan's trap to keep those who should be pastoring down and out.

We all share the blood of Christ, whether we have excepted that or not. We are all family. If we have not excepted that fact, then Christ will make His judgement on His day. God will present himself to people in many different ways, it is up to us to be paying attention. It is also up to all of us who know Jesus, to make that introduction easy for those who do not. Fishers of Men!

It took God literally holding my hand and saying, "Jim, this is My Son Jesus Christ, I'd like you two to be friends!" I say literally because that is what happened, it is also what my message is about on Sunday. I will post my message after Sunday when I know it is finished.

If people do not come to church on Sunday because I've been divorced and don't believe I should be giving a message, God will take care of that. Like wise, if the end result is, that I shouldn't be giving the message, God will take care of that as well.

Though I do believe I'm on His path.

When Jesus Christ comes before me and asks me what I have done with the talents that He has given me, I want to be able to show Him an effort that warrants Him saying, "Well done My brother, welcome to our house!" His is the only judgement I fear and am concerned about.

Thank you Christina!

Jim

walkin2e said:

Suppose the head is severed from the body. Can it exist? Can the body exist? No.

This statement is true...however, I have a 58 year old friend who had a heart transplant..he received a heart transplant from a 2o something year old about 3 years ago.

Good thing Jesus looks at our heart and not our head.

walkin2e

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Sir, JESUS is our head....
(we're not our own...)

This is just one way the Lord has used this divorced servant:

The Mother's Day Miracle

II Samuel 12. 22, 23: "And he said, while the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

One Mother's day, after church, I was laying down taking a rest when the phone rang. A Christian friend of mine said, "There is trouble at the cemetery, would you go see about it?" I felt the presence of the Holy Ghost and immediately drove to the cemetery. I got out of my car, looked around and there was not a soul in sight. I began to pray and seek the Lord for the purpose of my being there. After I prayed, the Lord spoke to me and said, "See that little baby's grave. I want you to go over to it and stand by."

As I stood by the baby's grave, I sensed the presence of the Lord. Five minutes passed by, ten minutes, 20 minutes, and the Lord said, "Have patience." After 30 minutes of waiting, I heard the sound of a car approaching. I looked up and saw a woman that I was acquainted with in earlier years. She came right to the spot where I was standing. That baby was hers and she was missing the child on Mother's day.

I began to talk to her and I told her that she couldn't bring her baby back but she could join her child in Heaven. She began to tell me all her troubles, her disappointments in life, her family problems, and her financial problems. As she began to unload, I felt the compassion of the Lord beginning to well up in me. Her family was feuding, her brother was sick, and she couldn't afford to call him.

I asked her if I could pray for her and she said okay. As I began to pray, the presence of the Lord came in a powerful way. I asked the Lord to reveal his love to her, and there at her baby's grave, she was born again.

The Lord told me to help her by giving her a little money. She tried to refuse to take it, but I insisted it was from the Lord. She said, "I will repay you some way."

Three weeks later, this 42 year old woman was brutally murdered. I spoke at her funeral and relayed what had taken place three weeks prior at the cemetery. This was the repayment to me and a great comfort for her family.

About a month later, one of her sisters called me and asked me to go to their house and have a service for the family. Her brother and sisters, mother and father, and most of the grandchildren were present. I preached Jesus to them and the Lord graciously blessed.

Since that time, her brother, her Daddy, and one of her nieces(21 years old) have gone on to be with the Lord. Surely, the Lord is good!

Matthew 4.19 "And he said unto them, Follow me and I will make you fishers of men."

Irvin L. Rozier, Captain(Retired) US Army...still serving as a soldier in God's Army

And here is another way the Lord used me:



One Tuesday morning, I went to an 11 A.M. prayer meeting at a local church. Names on a list were called out; some were sick, some were in need of salvation. I recognized the name of the husband of one of the women attending the prayer meeting. He was a good man, attended church, but had never been born again.

As his name was called out, the Lord spoke to me and said, "I want you to go see this man after this meeting is over."

The command was urgent, so as soon as the meeting was over, I drove the three miles to see him. I knocked on his door, he came to the door, opened it and asked me, "What are you doing here?"

I replied, "I came to pray for you."

He tried to change the subject. Suddenly, the anointing of the Lord came on me, and I looked directly in his eyes and said, "Get your affairs in order, you are about to die."

He looked at me in a shocked manner, and I said, "Now, let me pray for you."

He sat down in his easy chair, and I laid my hands on him and began to pray and asked the Lord to reveal his love to this man. Immediately, Jesus came and His presence filled the place. The man was born again. I saw the tears flow and felt the blessed assurance.

He told his family what had happened and testified to his spiritual rebirth. Saturday night, four days after he was born again, he went home to be with the Lord.

Lord, I pray that whosoever reads these words would recognize the shortness of our life here on earth. They would understand the everlasting importance of being born again.

John 3.3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Irvin L. Rozier aka walkin2e

walkin2e said:

Suppose the head is severed from the body. Can it exist? Can the body exist? No.

This statement is true...however, I have a 58 year old friend who had a heart transplant..he received a heart transplant from a 2o something year old about 3 years ago.

Good thing Jesus looks at our heart and not our head.

walkin2e

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I was under time restraints when I responded to this earlier (as I am now)

I want to highlight the fact that had the friend's body been severed from it's head, the new heart would not have done any good...

Blessings In Him!
~H

seekfirst said:

I just want your feelings on this. I have a friend who has felt called to be a pastor. He has felt this calling from early on in his life, but did not accept it until now. He has been divorced twice..both times his wives committed adultery, and divorced him. He is a lay minister now..LMTI. He and two other LMTI graduates have applied to the Delta program, and each of them have been divorced. He hasn't heard back yet from his application, but the two others have, and they were turned down because they were divorced...although when applying there was nothing about not being able to be in the program because of divorce...except that the reasoning of the divorces would be looked at. The two other men also had wives that left, and divorced them, one with adultery, and one who was in the military, and had his wife left him when he was at sea.
My friend is gifted at preaching, he has filled in for our pastor when our pastor was out for the weekend. He has a gift for reaching people. He feels called. His grandfather was a minister as well.
My question is, is there anything in the Bible for stating he can't be a pastor, when it was his wives that left...and their was adultery?

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Being a pastor is in my view a high calling. These individuals will be faced with other people who are in the same situation, but are trying to keep their marriage together.Let me put it this way. If I'm a drug addict and through my faith have overcome my addiction. Then I'm in a position to help others do the same. But if I'm divorced, and twice at that. How can I counsel my flock on staying married?Divorce is allowed in the case of adultery but not necessarily prefered. There can be forgiveness,repentance,and reconciliation. If one has been faced with adultery in their marriage and has managed to keep it together. They would in my view be more qualified.

Harlan Norris said:

Being a pastor is in my view a high calling. These individuals will be faced with other people who are in the same situation, but are trying to keep their marriage together.Let me put it this way. If I'm a drug addict and through my faith have overcome my addiction. Then I'm in a position to help others do the same. But if I'm divorced, and twice at that. How can I counsel my flock on staying married?Divorce is allowed in the case of adultery but not necessarily prefered. There can be forgiveness,repentance,and reconciliation. If one has been faced with adultery in their marriage and has managed to keep it together. They would in my view be more qualified.

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I appreciate all of the thoughts that have been expressed on this subject, but what must determine what is truth is the Bible alone. 1 Timonthy 3 is what God has revealed in His Word as the final words qualified to pastor. Everyone of the qualifications listed refers to how the man aspiring to be a pastor is living NOW, not 5 or 10 years ago. If we are consistent, then we must ask this aspiring candidate to have not been a drunkard, or brawler or anyone of those other qualifications, if we say his past divorce affects his being qualified, Since that is not the intention of 1 Timothy, all of our reasoning doesn't really matter. It is what God's Word says on this.

David Whitaker

dwhitaker said:

I appreciate all of the thoughts that have been expressed on this subject, but what must determine what is truth is the Bible alone. 1 Timonthy 3 is what God has revealed in His Word as the final words qualified to pastor. Everyone of the qualifications listed refers to how the man aspiring to be a pastor is living NOW, not 5 or 10 years ago. If we are consistent, then we must ask this aspiring candidate to have not been a drunkard, or brawler or anyone of those other qualifications, if we say his past divorce affects his being qualified, Since that is not the intention of 1 Timothy, all of our reasoning doesn't really matter. It is what God's Word says on this.

David Whitaker

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I still say marriage is a big issue, maybe the biggest.When ones marriage falls apart there are all kinds of ramifications. It's a terrible burdon on anyone that goes through it. Not just for themselves ,but also for their family.I have been divorced. This occoured many years ago. My current wife has been with me for 27 years. So I might be able to counsel one on their marriage. But, maybe not. So for that and other reasons I won't attempt to become a pastor. I would prefer that my pastor would have been married to the same woman from the start. This is a tough thing to do, and it shows charicter that most of us don't have.That's what we need in the pulpit.

For me, I'm personally leaving it up to what God wants me to do. If He wants me to give a message, He will provide the opportunity, just like He did for the 30th.

I just think that it's so very important we keep our focus on what it is He wants for our lives, and making sure that it isn't something that we want for our life. Not saying our wants and needs aren't important, they are, but our life is His to do with as He sees fit.

For instance Mr. Norris, if the opportunity presented itself for you to give a message. Nothing done by your own doing, the opportunity was just presented to you, by your statement, I am going to assume you would turn it down and that maybe fine. But what if the opportunity kept on presenting itself? Would this not be God saying, come on Harlan, I want you to share Me with others!

I am a police officer and have been for 18 years. I have probably about 10 to 15 more years to go. To be honest I'm not the happiest with my job. I consider myself to be pretty good at my job, but I am feeling pretty dog gone tired. I have prayed about taking a different job and have asked Him if this was what He wants, to present options for me. I don't believe that I am supposed to change jobs at this point in my life. He isn't done with me here yet. I can see some future ministry potentials coming available and believe that is where He is taking me.

I absolutely respect your belief, I really do. But I also think that we need to make sure we are open to His guidence and influence as well.

I hope this finds everyone having a great day!

Jim

Hispath said:

For me, I'm personally leaving it up to what God wants me to do. If He wants me to give a message, He will provide the opportunity, just like He did for the 30th.

I just think that it's so very important we keep our focus on what it is He wants for our lives, and making sure that it isn't something that we want for our life. Not saying our wants and needs aren't important, they are, but our life is His to do with as He sees fit.

For instance Mr. Norris, if the opportunity presented itself for you to give a message. Nothing done by your own doing, the opportunity was just presented to you, by your statement, I am going to assume you would turn it down and that maybe fine. But what if the opportunity kept on presenting itself? Would this not be God saying, come on Harlan, I want you to share Me with others!



I am a police officer and have been for 18 years. I have probably about 10 to 15 more years to go. To be honest I'm not the happiest with my job. I consider myself to be pretty good at my job, but I am feeling pretty dog gone tired. I have prayed about taking a different job and have asked Him if this was what He wants, to present options for me. I don't believe that I am supposed to change jobs at this point in my life. He isn't done with me here yet. I can see some future ministry potentials coming available and believe that is where He is taking me.

I absolutely respect your belief, I really do. But I also think that we need to make sure we are open to His guidence and influence as well.

I hope this finds everyone having a great day!

Jim

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I really appreciate Jim's response. Everything boils down to what God wants in our lives, not what we want, or what even what we think. It is a matter of "what does God's Word say"? Mr. Norris, I appreciate your view point, but I think you are selling yourself short on the testimony that you can be!

If we put Noah, who was drunken and naked in his tent, Abraham who lied about hise wife and was shortsighted about God's plan, Moses, who murdered an Egyptian, and David, who committed adultery and had her husband sent to the forfront of the battle to be killed, to cover up David's sin, ...if we put these guys before today's church for determination as to whether they would be sufficient leaders, many would say unquestionably "no". How is it that cowardly Peter, who denied the Lord, even cursing in public to the fact that he did not know Christ, stand as an example to those at Pentecost? It is because he was an example of God's restoration! He stood as one redeemed, forgiven and a testimony of obedience to God by grace, unmerited favor.

Again, it is all about what God is doing in the heart and lives of others. I know that Mr. Norris would stand up and preach loudly to others about the grace of Christ, if that is what God asked him to do. I have not suggested that every man who has been divorced ought to seek the pastorate, or should return to it...I am saying that if one who has been called as a Pastor, he should obey God...for God does not remove his gifts, and calling. If your heart is right and you desire to serve in ministry again...I encourage you to step out and obey the Lord in this. You will have to answer to him, not everyone who has an opinion on this!

May God bless every man willing to take this step!

Love
David Whitaker

dwhitaker said:

I really appreciate Jim's response. Everything boils down to what God wants in our lives, not what we want, or what even what we think. It is a matter of "what does God's Word say"? Mr. Norris, I appreciate your view point, but I think you are selling yourself short on the testimony that you can be!

If we put Noah, who was drunken and naked in his tent, Abraham who lied about hise wife and was shortsighted about God's plan, Moses, who murdered an Egyptian, and David, who committed adultery and had her husband sent to the forfront of the battle to be killed, to cover up David's sin, ...if we put these guys before today's church for determination as to whether they would be sufficient leaders, many would say unquestionably "no". How is it that cowardly Peter, who denied the Lord, even cursing in public to the fact that he did not know Christ, stand as an example to those at Pentecost? It is because he was an example of God's restoration! He stood as one redeemed, forgiven and a testimony of obedience to God by grace, unmerited favor.

Again, it is all about what God is doing in the heart and lives of others. I know that Mr. Norris would stand up and preach loudly to others about the grace of Christ, if that is what God asked him to do. I have not suggested that every man who has been divorced ought to seek the pastorate, or should return to it...I am saying that if one who has been called as a Pastor, he should obey God...for God does not remove his gifts, and calling. If your heart is right and you desire to serve in ministry again...I encourage you to step out and obey the Lord in this. You will have to answer to him, not everyone who has an opinion on this!

May God bless every man willing to take this step!

Love
David Whitaker

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Wow, well spoken. How could God ever put someone in the role of king when He knows that David would commit adultry? I think you hit the point in that, though I'm sure others would disagree. I wish we could just get over the past and let forgiveness be forgiveness. One thing I read was really good and I would like to share it. "If we ask God to forgive us but do not forgive ourselves (or others) we are putting ourselves above God"

When a man is called to pastor by God and we tell him no, we have just allowed ourselves to have voice over God. Remember, the servant never tells the master what to do.

dwhitaker said:

The idea that those who divorce and remarry are perpetually sinning the sin of adultery is absolutely false, my friend, and for good reason.

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How so? If the remarriage is in fact an adulterous affair, Biblically speaking, it would stand to reason the relationship exists in a state of sin.

dwhitaker said:

First, there is only one unpardonable (unforgiveable sin), which Jesus spoke to the those who denied the power of God's Spirit. Don't put a divorced person who is remarried, perhaps to a wonderful Christian woman in the category of living in perpetual sin. When a man is bound in marriage to the woman he remarries, he is not to divorce her and go back to the former woman. The Bible is clear that his former wife is not considered his wife and that point (Deut. 24:3-4)

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As Christians we follow the New Testament as Jesus said divorce was widely permissable according to the Law due to hardened hearts. If people choose to follow Deuteronomy I suppose they better not be eating bacon either.

dwhitaker said:

Does a man who takes another man's wife commit adultery, yes...but whether it is a lesser or greater sin, no sin is so large that God's grace does not cleanse and pardon. Was David living in perpetual adultery, and therefore unqualified to minister as King?

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David had her husband killed, after that she wasn't married anymore. David was guilty of adultery and murder, but he sincerely repented of it. People married to other mens wives, whom we speak of, do so with their chins held high shamelessly in self righteousness.

dwhitaker said:

I agree that God does not provide a blanket forgiveness to allow us to willfully sin day after day. In an earlier post, I mentioned that God does not give grace so that sin may abound (Paul's argument)...and the Bible teaches that any man who willfully continues or practices sin day after day is most likely, a non-believer, he has not been born of God (1 John 3:4), and yes, living in obedience for Christ should be true of every believer...however...we are not perfect until we are glorified and we will sin...that is why Jesus said "if any man sin, we have an advocate (a counselor that comes to our defense) with the Father, Jesus Christ, the rigteous one" (1 John 2:1). The Bible assumes that despite ourselves, we will sin...that is where grace comes in. Any teaching that assumes that we are sinless as Christians is false teaching.
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us " (1 John 1:8) Divorce happens. To assume that every divorce is premeditated willfulness against God is to assume incorrectly and presumptuously. People have divorce happen to them. Some have marriages where the spouse is abusive..;and the marriage is hurting the children....(we must guard against reacting in those marriages and taking matters into our own hands) but many end up in divorce and remarry and find a spouse that loves the Lord and is good to the children,,,and is living for Christ. I have heard these same old Phariseeical teachings again and again, and how the letter of the law is upheld as truth, but it is a gross interpretation of a law that Jesus never intended through love, grace and the spirit.

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So you use the Law (Deut) when it suits you, then you accuse me of using "same old Phariseeical teachings" when I bring up what Jesus said about the matter. One of us is confused. If people want to sin based on their reasoning, which they place above Jesus's very words in the Red Letter Bible, I can understand where they're coming from as they lack faith in God's word. If such people living consistently sinful lives with open eyes assume to lead others in Christ, God has either changed his standards or those people are in error.

dwhitaker said:

The Bible does not teach what you are sharing.

David Whitaker, ThD, PhD

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The Bible teaches reliance on God through the Holy Spirit, and Jesus and his teachings. A devil-may-care attitude toward sinning is not part of that equation David.